Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Outsource of Confusion - When jobs go, we grow. [Pro-Outsourcing Article]
National Review ^ | 02/04/2004 | Bruce Bartlett

Posted on 02/04/2004 6:50:48 AM PST by ClintonBeGone

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-134 next last
I hope some of the economic Fred Flintstones here will read this article and understand the points the author is making.
1 posted on 02/04/2004 6:50:55 AM PST by ClintonBeGone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
Flintstone ping
2 posted on 02/04/2004 6:52:32 AM PST by Sender (Code Yellow: continue shopping, please don't litter)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sender; Willie Green
You forgot to ping willie. He's the ultimate fintstone.
3 posted on 02/04/2004 6:53:52 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
It's also important to know that when countries outsource work to India or China, they are only doing so for very low-end operations that require little skill or training.

That's where the article goes astray.

4 posted on 02/04/2004 6:54:26 AM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vannrox; Smogger; sauropod
Economic Freedom Ping
5 posted on 02/04/2004 6:56:08 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
That's where the article goes astray.

It's a minor point. It all depends on what you consider skilled. Just because it takes some 2000 classroom hours to be a hair dresser, doesn't make that a skilled profession.

6 posted on 02/04/2004 6:57:32 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
Fine, fine. And the now unemployed, or underemployed, US taxpayer will pay fewer tax dollars. Which will fail to support the existing infrastructure of our government, along with the ability to service the outstanding debt.

India and China will have more revenue to support a larger government and a bigger military. The U.S. will fade in strength, power - and significance.

Happy?

7 posted on 02/04/2004 6:57:35 AM PST by neutrino (Oderint dum metuant: Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
It sells a wireless mouse called Wanda for about $40 that is assembled in China. Of the $40, China gets only $3. The rest goes to suppliers, many based in America, which make components for the mouse, and to domestic retailers.
8 posted on 02/04/2004 6:58:56 AM PST by Taliesan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: neutrino
It's not happened since the inception of this country. Don't be silly.
9 posted on 02/04/2004 6:59:38 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
Any jobs saved in the short-run by restrictions on outsourcing will come at the expense of better jobs in the future that will not be created.

I see. Does it mean that outsourcing will generate better jobs in the future? How far in the future? What jobs? And where? How does he know the future?

10 posted on 02/04/2004 7:00:04 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
How does he know the future?

He seems to know the future better than many on your side even know the present.

11 posted on 02/04/2004 7:03:27 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
Excellent point. I wonder what the author considers "low end" - rockets, circuits, computers, programming?
12 posted on 02/04/2004 7:03:59 AM PST by stainlessbanner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
That's where the article goes astray.

That's gonna bring facts into the argument! Shame on you, facts have no place in discussions such as these!

13 posted on 02/04/2004 7:08:08 AM PST by templar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
No, I am the ultimate Flintstone. I hate outsourcing!!!
14 posted on 02/04/2004 7:08:09 AM PST by Sender (Code Yellow: continue shopping, please don't litter)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
Just because it takes some 2000 classroom hours to be a hair dresser, doesn't make that a skilled profession.

They don't outsource hair dressers, they outsource jobs like engineers. OTOH: Outsourced engineers could, of course, retrain as hair dressers and have a more secure future.

15 posted on 02/04/2004 7:10:42 AM PST by templar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Sender
No, I am the ultimate Flintstone. I hate outsourcing!!!

Sorry to disagee with you, but there is no evidence that outsourcing does anything but help the macroeconomy of this country.

16 posted on 02/04/2004 7:13:23 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
The author is a moron.
17 posted on 02/04/2004 7:18:45 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
The author is a moron.

I agree

18 posted on 02/04/2004 7:21:02 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
Every outsourced, unemployed programmer, customer service rep, and/or factory worker is a vote against whatever administration is in power.

So are their families and likely their friends and peers.
19 posted on 02/04/2004 7:21:54 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
How does he know the future?

He seems to know the future better than many on your side even know the present.

I am awed. So how does he know the future so well?

20 posted on 02/04/2004 7:22:26 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: stainlessbanner
I wonder what the author considers "low end" - rockets, circuits, computers, programming

Certainly, there are low end aspects to each. The unfortunate truth for many IT pros is that their profession has been commodified. Yes, we can go back and forth over quality of work issues, but the market will sort that out. But if a company can pay some Indian $4k/year to do what an American will only do for $50k, you'll see outsourcing.

I think sometimes we look at IT as the industry for employment that is the most essential (and cutting edge) as we move forward. But that may not be the case. As IT builds on itself, we may see a wholesale decrease in demand for actual breathing human beings in that industry.

Remember, information technology is responsible for massive job elimination because of the gains in efficiency and productivity it allows. Who's to say it won't actually do the same to itself?

21 posted on 02/04/2004 7:24:37 AM PST by Mr. Bird
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
"That's where the article goes astray."

Not only that, but the author has his head conveniently and firmly up his backside. He needs to go talk to Sprint and find out about outsourcing technical expertise. I know, because it has already happened and is going to continue to happen.

22 posted on 02/04/2004 7:26:57 AM PST by el_texicano
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Bird
Looks like we're going to be a nation of salesmen and lawyers.
23 posted on 02/04/2004 7:27:08 AM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
Ping for another outsourcing article.
24 posted on 02/04/2004 7:28:38 AM PST by Ciexyz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: el_texicano
Just out of curiosity, what is it that the Paleo-con-men actually want?

A law simply making it illegal to outsource technical or intellectual labor to another country?

Or just monumental taxes on doing so and having the same practical effect?

And if you do so, how do you justify not simply banning the import of all finished goods as well, or imposing such massive tarriffs (taxes, of course) on them that it has the same practical effect?
25 posted on 02/04/2004 7:30:46 AM PST by John H K
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: neutrino
So you believe the wealth of America is largely based on keeping other nations impoverished?
26 posted on 02/04/2004 7:32:02 AM PST by John H K
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
So how does he know the future so well?

I can't speak for the author, but most people who have a grasp on history can often predict with a degree of certainly, what will happen in the future.

27 posted on 02/04/2004 7:37:42 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
So how does he know the future so well?

I can't speak for the author, but most people who have a grasp on history can often predict with a degree of certainty, what will happen in the future.

28 posted on 02/04/2004 7:37:52 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
Every outsourced, unemployed programmer, customer service rep, and/or factory worker is a vote against whatever administration is in power.

So its not what's right, its what's right for me. Sounds very liberal if you ask me.

29 posted on 02/04/2004 7:38:38 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
Looks like we're going to be a nation of salesmen and lawyers

No, it doesn't look like that at all. But some people seem to think that if we were just a nation of programmers and developers, that would be just peachie.

If programming becomes as easy as ditch digging, would we be smart to hold on to those jobs? We're already seeing IT products that laymen can use to do a job that just a few years ago required a few techies to handle.

It certainly is an emotional issue, and I understand the turmoil IT people are going through. But I don't think anyone should dismiss the very real possibility that such happenings are good for everyone in the long run.

30 posted on 02/04/2004 7:39:18 AM PST by Mr. Bird
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Bird
Remember, information technology is responsible for massive job elimination because of the gains in efficiency and productivity it allows. Who's to say it won't actually do the same to itself?

Very good point. How many offices now have a typing pool? Most everyone can now type and print their own memo. Damn IT guys. If they didn't hook up all those printers we'd still have typists.

31 posted on 02/04/2004 7:40:50 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
The article flies in the face of what has made the USA prosperous for all these years. Work hard, educate yourself, get a good job, continue to work hard, get married, buy house have 2.5 kids.
I have a three year old girl and a boy on the way :-) what kind of jobs (besides service jobs) does the author think will be in the USA when my kids grow up.
I don't think I'll encourage them to follow my footsteps into Engineering.
32 posted on 02/04/2004 7:41:22 AM PST by Moleman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
I would like to see the fortune telling license. Outsourcing is a fact of life that will not go away. Americans can refuse to do business with companies which outsource to third world, low-wage countries, but will have precious choices as consumers. Crunch time will come when US consumers don't have the collective retail and earning power to determine the shape and size or nature of products.
Market truths do not always make sound public policy, because there IS a higher moral value to US economic health than there is to Chinese or Indian.
33 posted on 02/04/2004 7:41:37 AM PST by steve8714
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: John H K
Well, taxation or tariffs are to me not the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is at the moment.

From what I've read on the 'outsourcing' issue, the savings are very short term to the corporations and eventually comes back to bite them in the butt. I know because I joined this company at the time its previous 'outsourcing' blew up in their face and we had to scramble to fix the problem.

I personally fault the shortsightedness of the corporate "leaders" who've allowed this state of affairs to happen.

No, those of us who are affected will find other jobs, develop other skills and get on with our lives. It's just a shame that a good corporation can be so pathetically lead or rather mislead.

Then there's the ulterior motive that many believe is behind this, at least in the case of some companies. A CEO is hired for the express purpose of trimming the "fat" so it can be merged, sold, or otherwise taken over by other corporations and thus the 'stockholders' reap the profits. And it doesn't take much to figure out who the 'stockholders' are in this case.

34 posted on 02/04/2004 7:46:08 AM PST by el_texicano
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
"In the process, they are becoming more like Americans, which is translating into demand for American goods and lifestyles."

Great. Maybe this pent-up demand for American goods will lead to the reopening of all those shuttered factories.

35 posted on 02/04/2004 7:47:35 AM PST by Middle Man
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
But seriously, what high paying jobs will be left that are not going to require a lot of entrepreneurial sense (and not many in the general population have that)? Most non-strategy-making jobs can eventually be automated, and those that can't will be sent offshore. I agree for those who are good business people there will be a wealth of oppotunities, but as I stated, most people in this country will not be qualified (especially with our crappy education system).

36 posted on 02/04/2004 7:47:42 AM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Middle Man
which is translating into demand for American goods

Forget it, India is as protectionist as can be.

37 posted on 02/04/2004 7:48:31 AM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Moleman
I have a three year old girl and a boy on the way :-) what kind of jobs (besides service jobs) does the author think will be in the USA when my kids grow up.

Why don't you just allow them to discover what it is they like. They'll learn early on whether its also something that will earn them a living.

38 posted on 02/04/2004 7:48:41 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
Crunch time will come when US consumers don't have the collective retail and earning power to determine the shape and size or nature of products.

We're actually fortunate that you don't currently possess that power. You would destroy this country for your own personal gains.

39 posted on 02/04/2004 7:49:41 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator
But seriously, what high paying jobs will be left that are not going to require a lot of entrepreneurial sense (and not many in the general population have that)? Most non-strategy-making jobs can eventually be automated, and those that can't will be sent offshore. I agree for those who are good business people there will be a wealth of oppotunities, but as I stated, most people in this country will not be qualified (especially with our crappy education system).

Good God folks, how many times in the past 200 years have these words been spoken over a dinner table. Stop being so arrogant in thinking you're the first generation that's actually had to deal with the economy in a personal way. Its just silly.

40 posted on 02/04/2004 7:51:46 AM PST by ClintonBeGone (<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
FYI...under the radar news...

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 28, 2004 05:18:58 PM ] MUMBAI: If you thought that the US Senate had finished with cracking down on outsourcing, think again. Things could just get worse for Indian software and BPO companies

On Friday, President George W Bush signed into law a Bill, which bars outsourcing by the US Treasury and Transport departments, though this does not apply to the whole Federal government as some reports had indicated.

However, another Bill, called "Truthfulness, Responsibility and Accountability in Contracting Act of 2003" (TRAC Act), introduced in the US Senate last year, could halt outsourcing by the entire federal government, if it becomes law.

The objective of the TRAC Bill is "to ensure that the business of the federal government is conducted in the public interest and in a manner that provides for public accountability, efficient delivery of services, reasonable cost savings, and prevention of unwarranted Government expenses, and for other purposes”.

The TRAC Bill refers to outsourcing as one of the components of "contracting out" which will be monitored by the General Accounting Office (GAO). The new Bill says that certifying agencies will have to be formed in each department to monitor all projects contracted out.

These agencies will have to report to the GAO that the procedures followed for outsourcing are fair and transparent. These procedures have been put in place to make outsourcing as difficult as possible.

Currently two per cent of all outsourcing projects from India are from the US government. Typically, federal projects are not offshored to India in a major way as they often fall foul of the "buy American” provision that sets minimum levels for domestic content in products bought by the US government.

The Bill does not, in any way, affect outsourcing by private US companies except to the extent that it fosters a protectionist climate within the USA. Meanwhile President Bush has signed the omnibus spending Bill making it a law. The Bill is accompanied by a revised budget circular (called A-76) which will prevent outsourcing to India, or to any other country by the Treasury and Transportation departments.

A copy of the new law, which is available with The Economic Times , does not refer to India or even to outsourcing directly, but will nevertheless affect almost all developing and emerging countries including India.

The most damaging part in the new law is the following: "An activity or function of an executive agency that is converted to contractor performance under Office of Management and Budget Circular A-76 may not be performed by the contractor at a location outside the United States except to the extent that such activity or function was previously performed by Federal Government employees outside the United States."

This clause will prevent any offshore outsourcing by the US federal government to any other part of the world. The law also revises a circular called A-76. The revised circular reads, "That in all public and private sector competition for more than 10 positions, a private sector offer would have to be 10% or $10 million less than the government offer to be considered."

What this means is that, if the positions of more than the 10 employees are affected, then the private sector offer would have to be 10 per cent less than the government offer. The A-76 changes have been dictated by the federal employee unions and industry associations.

US employee unions, like the American Federation of Government Employees, have hailed the provisions as being far more equitable to US federal workers. It will also affect small and medium companies in the US which benefited from outsourcing.

Source

As for the private sector, see:

Info on The American Competition Enhancement Act of 2003

41 posted on 02/04/2004 7:57:46 AM PST by ravingnutter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
I'm not talking about me.
I haven't worked in years and don't care.

You're the one who wants Bush re-elected.

I don't care.
42 posted on 02/04/2004 7:58:11 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Bird
Remember, information technology is responsible for massive job elimination because of the gains in efficiency and productivity it allows. Who's to say it won't actually do the same to itself?

Exactly right. I lost my job as a punch-card handler 20 years ago and still haven't found a new punch-card handling job. < /sarcasm>

43 posted on 02/04/2004 8:07:50 AM PST by Grit (http://www.NRSC.org)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
Market truths do not always make sound public policy, because there IS a higher moral value to US economic health than there is to Chinese or Indian.

Not to mention the national security concerns. As more and more of our industrial capacity moves to the other hemisphere, does anyone seriously believe that China will not eventually say "Thank you very much for all of those factories that your corporations built for us...they don't belong to you anymore. Oh, and if you even think about sending over any carrier battle groups within striking range of our countries, we will nuke you back to the stone age."

44 posted on 02/04/2004 8:11:40 AM PST by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
I can't speak for the author, but most people who have a grasp on history can often predict with a degree of certainly, what will happen in the future.

Really?! Can you give some examples from past of such successful predictions? If most such people can do it the examples must be many!

45 posted on 02/04/2004 8:12:09 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Middle Man
shuttered factories: i have an old binder which took 2 people to run plus 1 or 2 people to stack up the bundles. them the thresher would come in with its crew of 10 to 12 and make a big straw pile and some grain. now all of these jobs have been LOST to one person and one combine.

something to think about.
46 posted on 02/04/2004 8:14:51 AM PST by camas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
How many offices now have a typing pool?

Are you equating giving a computer to a secretary so that she can be more effective at her job to moving a job overseas just because its cheaper?

In the first case you had constructive destruction where destroying the typing pool jobs opened up new local ones. What do you have in the second case by just moving the job overseas? The typists can all go get other jobs? Like what?
47 posted on 02/04/2004 8:16:00 AM PST by lelio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: templar
OTOH: Outsourced engineers could, of course, retrain as hair dressers and have a more secure future.

Don't laugh. I know of two engineers who are now running a SuperCuts in Monterey.

48 posted on 02/04/2004 8:18:13 AM PST by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Middle Man
Maybe this pent-up demand for American goods will lead to the reopening of all those shuttered factories.

Yep, when the average Chinese peasant can now afford a cell phone he's ... going to buy the Chinese brand. When the Indian worker can afford to buy some new parts for his car he's going to buy it from the Indian plant.

If we're buying products produced in their country why would they buy some from ours?
49 posted on 02/04/2004 8:18:57 AM PST by lelio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: ClintonBeGone
If we truly applied their argument that the U.S. cannot compete with low-wage earners in a protectionist and oppressive economy, then it won't be long until the Soviet Union leaves us in the dust.
50 posted on 02/04/2004 8:19:39 AM PST by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-134 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson