Science Trumps Ritual in Mystery Skeleton Row [Kennewick Man]

Reuters--UK ^ | Thu 5 February, 2004 | Adam Tanner

[syriacus]

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Denying a request by American Indian tribes who sought an immediate burial, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Wednesday that scientists should be allowed to continue testing on a 9,000-year-old skeleton.

"It's terrific," said Robson Bonnichsen director of Texas A&M University's Center for the Study of the First Americans and a plaintiff in the case. "The court has upheld the principle for scientific study of very early human remains."

The legal battle pitting Bonnichsen and seven other scientists against the U.S. government and Indian tribes dates back to 1996, after two teenagers discovered a skeleton near the shore of the Columbia River near Kennewick, Washington.

Scientists dated the "Kennewick Man" remains as 8,340 to 9,200 years old, yet it was a puzzling find because its features differed from those of American Indians. Scientists hoped further study would shed light on early North Americans.

[syriacus]

From the article:

Without a clear link between the skeleton and Native Americans, the court gave a green light to science.

[NativeSon]

"The court has upheld the principle for scientific study of very early human remains."

Surprise

One more added to the list of "done for the greater good" . But who's greater good?

[ClearCase_guy]

Is Kennewick Man curently above ground? Wasn't there an "inconvenient" skeleton that was buried very, very thoroughly during the Clinton Administration?

The Left seems to like some science, but be afraid of what science will uncover in other cases. Perhaps they have an agenda.

[steplock]

THe "mongolian" indians do NOT want any proof that maybe it is a "caucasian" that was here first?

Didn't Joseph Smith (Mormons) profess that?

[Sacajaweau]

A few more scientists live to collect a very big paycheck and get published.

My personal feeling is that the bones should be buried in a proper nearby cemetery and "rest in peace".

Intrusion on this skeleton may tell us something but it will be nothing useful and much will be hypothetical jibberish.

The man died 9000 years ago. No one can "claim" him except the earth.

[sticker]

The left has an agenda???? I am shocked and saddened deeply saddened.

[sticker]

"The man died 9000 years ago. No one can "claim" him except the earth."

Yes there is his wife, Helen Thomas

[syriacus]

Yes there is his wife, Helen Thomas

LOL. (Though I hope he had better sense than to marry her)

[r9etb]

LOL. (Though I hope he had better sense than to marry her)

IIRC, Kennewick Man was found with a spear point amid his bones. If he did marry her, I suspect it was a self-inflicted wound....

[Sacajaweau]

That explains it. Married to Helen Thomas, the man had a "death wish".

[lawgirl]

Actually that goes to prove he probably ran against Bill Clinton for something. Or knew too much about the Clintons. Or perhaps was Hitlery's first boyfriend?

[NativeSon]

My personal feeling is that the bones should be buried in a proper nearby cemetery and "rest in peace".
Intrusion on this skeleton may tell us something but it will be nothing useful and much will be hypothetical jibberish.
The man died 9000 years ago. No one can "claim" him except the earth.

As with all of my Nation/Religion, I have a strong aversion to disturbing the dead. No matter how long dead- what is time to the Chindli or spirit?.

I have never understood the unnatural obsession with the dead.

[Tallguy]

Yes there is his wife, Helen Thomas.

Then can we expect that Kennewick Man died of suicide? Or perhaps he was 'nagged to death'!

[evets]

religion triumphs! Asatru priest Steve McNallen consecrates the Columbia Park ground near where Kennewick Man was found in the summer of 1996.

[gcruse]

But who's greater good?

Those who love knowledge.
Those who wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the 'natives' the white man so traduced, traduced those who were pre-native.

[ElkGroveDan]

Is Kennewick Man curently above ground? Wasn't there an "inconvenient" skeleton that was buried very, very thoroughly during the Clinton Administration?

Not sure about the actual bones, but I do recall that in the name of all that is PC they bulldozed the site and buried it under tons of fill. As archeologists will point out, sometimes excavating the site of such a find can provide a treasure trove of artifacts and associated remains, as valubale or more so than the actual remains.

Too late for any of that.

[NativeSon]

Those who love knowledge. Those who wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the 'natives' the white man so traduced, traduced those who were pre-native.

Still, does not address the "greater good".

Could be that folks are looking to assuage the collective guilt gained through five centuries of genocide.

[Bernard Marx]

The actual skeleton is intact and safe (except from the Indians' lawyers)!

The discovery site was bulldozed and wrip-wrapped with rocks by the Corps of Engineers because it didn't want to be bothered by the difficulties of dealing with the Indians' lawyers on the issue.

Meanwhile, if one of us picks up an arrowhead or digs for artifacts, we can go to jail for violating the Antiquities Act (which apparently doesn't apply to the Corps).

[gcruse]

Still, does not address the "greater good".

What is the 'greater good' of burying clues to the common history of mankind?

[ElkGroveDan]

The image on the left is a forensic clay form made from the skull of Kennewick Man. He kind of looks like Patrick Stewart (right).

[NativeSon]

What is the 'greater good' of burying clues to the common history of mankind?

History of Mankind? There's plenty around us and most is ignored. I can raise similiar questions for cloning, fetal tissue experimentation.. all in the name of science, knowledge, evolution of mankind. Does it make it right?

I firmly believe that classic theories on human migration are incorrect, so what? I would not "tool with" a corpse in the name of science.

[gcruse]

History of Mankind? There's plenty around us and most is ignored.

What do you mean?

I can raise similiar questions for cloning, fetal tissue experimentation.. all in the name of science, knowledge, evolution of mankind. Does it make it right?

I notice a propensity for moral judgements here.  But I'll play.  I have no problem with cloning,  stem cell research or evolution.

 I firmly believe that classic theories on human migration are incorrect, so what?

So why bury the chance to prove or disprove your beliefs?

 I would not "tool with" a corpse in the name of science.

Then you shouldn't. 

[fish hawk]

Everyone keeps saying he doesn't look "Indian". There are many different kinds of Indians in the U.S. I've seen pictures of Indians that look a lot like this bust. I don't think he looks any more white than he does Indian. I don't know of any test they can do on 9000 year bones that is going to be fullproof evidence. Which tells me just bury the guy and go on with life.

[ElkGroveDan]

Its not just subjective observation that causes them to rule him out as American Indian. There are certain body proportions that are constant within racial groups -- skull shapes, etc. My understanding is that everything about him and his bone structure suggest that his physical characteristics are distinctly outside the normal range of proportions on the many, many tens of thousands of Indian remains they have studied and catalogued from across the Americas.

[syriacus]

Amazing similarity.

[syriacus]

Thanks for the information. I hadn't ever heard of Asatru so I did a quick google.

Pagans battle corps over old bones

This story was published Saturday, August 23rd, 1997

By Mike Lee Herald staff writer

As Norse pagans prepare to celebrate the 9,200-year-old bones found last summer in Kennewick, they also are stepping up their legal fight.

The Asatru Folk Assembly filed a motion Friday in U.S. District Court in Portland asking Magistrate Judge John Jelderks to remove the so-called Kennewick Man remains from the Army Corps of Engineers' jurisdiction.[snip]

Once they found out the corps allowed American Indian tribes to hold secret ceremonies with the bones, the Asatru said the corps could not be trusted as an arbiter in the case. [excerpt]

[Natural Law]

It is far more probable that Kennewick man was Ainu than Caucasian. The Ainu are a non-Japanese population indeginous to Hokkaido and the northern Islands of Japan. It is believed that the Ainu population was isolated before the monern races were established.

Another possibility is that he was related to the Aborignies of Australia and the South Pacific in that evidence of their presence has been found in Brazil predating the modern Indian populations.

[steplock]

"Brazil predating the modern Indian populations."

I remember reading about that group - and there is supposedly even survivors TODAY of those original humans in the western hemisphere. They're living up in the hills of (Argentina / Chile ?).

I believe they were Polynesian /Indian descent?

[NativeSon]

What do you mean?

Many things are known about people in general and groups of people and their accomplishments or lack thereof. There is also much known about human behavior. But any of this that is deemed “un-PC” or “hurtful” is ignored. Digging up (pun intended) more dirt (yet again) is of what use? Socially digestible information will be published for consumption the rest stricken.

I notice a propensity for moral judgments here. But I'll play. I have no problem with cloning, stem cell research or evolution.

Moral judgments yes. I know that some things have a price that is far too high no matter the benefit. The ends should not always justify the means.

So why bury the chance to prove or disprove your beliefs?

Because this will prove nothing. Except that scientist have the Right to trespass and dig up my ancestors in the name of science. Even if the remains of this man prove to be Caucasoid he is still our ancestor.

Disturbing the dead is not good, what was a man has long since settled.

[Quix]

Sanity, finally, in this ridiculous case.

[Natural Law]

The first Americans were descended from Australian aborigines, according to new evidence presented in a BBC documentary. The program, called Ancient Voices, shows that the dimensions of prehistoric skulls found in Brazil match those of the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia. Researchers have found evidence that they were later massacred and canabalized by invaders from Asia. Maybe we should conduct a title search before we cede anymore indigenous property rights to the noble savages.

[gcruse]

Even if the remains of this man prove to be Caucasoid he is still our ancestor.

Caucasian is more my immediate ancestor than a native American's.  Therefore, being refused his remains by those less related to him than me is wrong.

[NativeSon]

Caucasian is more my immediate ancestor than a native American's. Therefore, being refused his remains by those less related to him than me is wrong.

That's a silly argument- what was intended by my statement is that this that was a man was here and so were Indians at the that time, and what he was became part of them.

Sort of like you're an America no matter where your family originated. Ireland, Germany, Italy, etc., would have no claim on what was you or yours.

For the record, I'm a curious man by nature and by profession - I was a scientist (Pharm/Tox) before my current career - I like to know things, I like truth.

But I value religion and morales

[ValerieUSA]

He's dead, Jim.

There is no violation of the sanctity of human life by examining his bones now. There is much yet to be learned about him and his people. American pre-history is primarily assumption based on very little data, and that is leading to ridiculous claims in courts. If the past is important to modern legal decisions, then let's document the past with some accuracy.

[SunkenCiv]

:') It's taken more than fifty years to bury Clovis-First-and-Only, but thanks to Dillehay et al, we're all just waiting for the flatline. (':

[SunkenCiv]

The man died 9000 years ago. No one can "claim" him except the earth. -- Sacajaweau

That's what the researchers said, and now the court has agreed.

[Publius6961]

One more added to the list of "done for the greater good" . But who's greater good?

If you can't tell the difference between "whose" and "who's", I'm afraid no explanation is possible...

[Publius6961]

The man died 9000 years ago. No one can "claim" him except the earth.

I am sure that your sentiments were different when the indians were claiming the body with the flimsiest and most absurd reason: ignorance.

[blam]

Kennewick Man Speaks

[Publius6961]

Could be that folks are looking to assuage the collective guilt gained through five centuries of genocide.

Genocide?
Now we're getting silly here. Inferior cultures come and go. Dozens have been lost to the dust bin of history. If the Indians could have eliminated the white man, they would have done so without a second thought.

Now, the only thing that keeps their culture alive is liberal mind set and PC. Like a big flock of pets. Sad.

[FreedomCalls]

And in Florida:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962323/posts

[FreedomCalls]

He looks kinda like Wes Studi (a Cherokee actor who played Magua in "Last of the Mohicans") to me.

[Publius6961]

I don't know of any test they can do on 9000 year bones that is going to be fullproof (sic) evidence.

When you win the Nobel Prize in any of the sciences, we can start taking you seriously.

A big mouth and an inflated opinion of yourself isn't quite enough.

Sorry.

[fish hawk]

Yes, they do look a lot alike. I have a great collection of Indian books and have found quite a few pictures of Indians from many different tribes that look much like Kennewick man. Especially around the Great Lakes and Plains regions.

[Publius6961]

But I value religion and morales

... if not spelling or rational scientific thought...

[NativeSon]

There is no violation of the sanctity of human life by examining his bones now.

To YOU maybe. You religion and your ideas are not universal.

PS "he's dead Jim" <---- that's too funny

[NativeSon]

Genocide?

Yes, Genocide.

Now we're getting silly here. Inferior cultures come and go. Dozens have been lost to the dust bin of history. If the Indians could have eliminated the white man, they would have done so without a second thought.

I can say the same about other people. And you are wrong. You do not understand my culture. Killing to extermination is not and was not an "Indian thing".

Now, the only thing that keeps their culture alive is liberal mind set and PC. Like a big flock of pets. Sad.

I find this insulting. I endure every other religion, PC cr@p about "special people" that you can't question but my people and my religion are false? We are here because of leftism? You make me sick. My family served and defended this country for you and yours and this is what you think?

I pity people like you, you are what is wrong with the Right.

[NativeSon]

... if not spelling or rational scientific thought...

ahh, you must be superior. You are resorting to picking nits, I'm at work, I can't play all day...

[SunkenCiv]

Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.

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