Parents can teach kids to stop abductions

CNN ^ | 2-5-04 | N/A

[JustPiper]

The key to remaining safe lies in not leaving the place where the abductor approaches a child, said Bob Stuber of the Texas-based Escape School, which runs educational programs across the United States.

A kidnapper "wants to get out somewhere by himself," said Stuber, a former police officer and founder of the Escape School. "He may threaten the child, but he's not going to hurt the child right there. That's not what this is about. That takes place later."

[JustPiper]

Another great source for teaching kids and teens the ropes is:

Child Lures -Welcome to Child Lures Prevention Home of the Child Lures Community Plan >> Here on CHILDLURES.ORG, you'll find the most effective personal safety resources available for parents, educators, professionals, and most importantly, children. The Child Lures Prevention Community Plan is based on author Kenneth Wooden's original groundbreaking research

Parents, loved ones , I urge you to read,save this thread and teach it to your children well, please!

[Steve Eisenberg]

Utter nonsense. There is no scientific basis to know what child behaviors will work here, and if we knew there would be no way to teach it reliably.

[JustPiper]

As a parent whose child was almost abducted in front of my eyes, I know it's true! These methods were instilled into my children and in my case it worked. You hear of many survivor's who attest to tips, so I have no idea what you mean.

[Steve Eisenberg]

"If you hold that bike, and do not let go, it's impossible to put you in a car," Stuber said.

This underestimates the strength of a desparate and determined adult, and any kidnapper is going to be VERY desparate and determined.

If locked in a trunk, remove the taillight panel which comes off easily, and disconnect the taillight wires. "Now you increased the odds 50 percent that the police will pull the car over because it has not brake or tail lights," Stuber said, "then they will hear you inside."

50 percent of what? It takes weeks on average for the police to notice. This 50 percent figure is the smoking gun proving the irresponsibility of this advice.

Adults are responsible for not being kidnappers. Children are not responsible for their own kidnapping.

[JustPiper]

Carlie Brucia, 11
SARASOTA, Florida (CNN) -- The video of a man who approached 11-year-old Carlie Brucia in a carwash parking lot led to the arrest of Joseph Smith, according to a woman who lives with him.

[JustPiper]

Who is saying children are responsible for their own kidnapping, that is ludicrous! But if it comes down to the creep and the child, you mean to tell me you would rather your child not have some idea(s) what to do?!

[savedbygrace]

Always rotate the arm to break free of the grip if restrained.

Also, rotate TOWARD the abducter's thumb. It's usually a weaker grip on that side than the other.

[JustPiper]

Ping!

[fini]

While I agree that they don't state any scientific data, what they do state seems pretty reasonable. While I don't think all of it will work every time nor in every situation, it does seem to give some good techniques. Techniques that can be used depending upon the situation. I believe that a satisfactory plan implemented quickly is usually better than a great plan implemented after great deliberation.

[Steve Eisenberg]

But if it comes down to the creep and the child, you mean to tell me you would rather your child not have some idea(s) what to do?!

JustPiper, I read articles on this kind of thing years ago, before the internet, so I doubt I can find any links. Anyway, these ideas for children resisting kidnappers are based on feminist ideas for how women should resist rapists. There is no body of evidence indicating it works for kids. Even if the teaching is right, studies of these programs showed that the children wildly misinterpret what they are taught.

I want the kidnappers to be scared, not my kids. This kind of program is just going to create fear because sensible children will know full well that they can't fend off an adult. Freepers of all people should know what it takes to deal with this kind of person (hint: 2nd amendment).

[JustPiper]

And you know none of these things will work because? Have you visited ChildLures? How do you protect your kids?

[marktwain]

• If the abductor shows a gun, run. No matter what the person says, keep running. There is only a slim chance they will try to shoot you. Firing a gun draws attention.

This is excellent advise. I have told this to my own kids, and my brother the peace officer to his. There have been more than one instance where two children were approached and threatened with a gun. One ran, the other complied with the threat. Only the runner survived. Running from the threat of a gun is excellent advise, especially for a child.

If the child had a gun to resist with, run to cover then shoot the person who pursues you.

Unfortunately, a great many states have legislated that children must be unarmed victims. Children in school are now not even allowed to have a pocket knife!

[LWalk18]

And what would you suggest? A stranger who is attempting to take a child is planning to kill them. Making an effort to escape is common sense- no scientific research is necessary. Better to be killed by gunshot attempting to run away (worst case scenario) then being raped, tortured, and then murdered. The only problem is getting kids to act logically while facing a gun or other force- easier said than done. But it is better than doing nothing.

[JustPiper]

Anyway, these ideas for children resisting kidnappers are based on feminist ideas for how women should resist rapists.

[JustPiper]

I know I resent Steve's feminist remark, that has nothing to do with teaching our children how to protect themselves when we are not there. I guess we just hide them in the house or put them in the yard and pray no one will approach them. Better yet how many kids, young girls, even babies are stolen right out of their home?

[2nd amendment mama]

Freepers of all people should know what it takes to deal with this kind of person (hint: 2nd amendment)

Unfortunately most of these incidents happen when no one is around to see it and children don't go around carrying a gun. Would you rather we don't teach our children because these methods "have no scientific basis". Your advice is "utter nonsense"!!!!!

[secret garden]

Self defense techniques work, whether used by children or women. They are instructed in their usage during martial arts classes. Practice is key, so the reaction becomes automatic.

[SouthernClaire]

I didn't read the entire article. Didn't need to in order to reach an opinion on that written during the first bit.

I have a daughter.

I have a daughter who was put through a sad, but necessary, bit of education.

She cried. (No parent wants to see that.)

She screamed, "This isn't FAIR!"

Exactly. "That's the point."

It's sad but true that we, as parents, can almost adapt to our children watching such as MTV, etc., but be shy about slamming them, grabbing them, in an attempt to get across life-saving points. Too harmful... too humiliating. "School admin wouldn't approve..."

Let me please, time and time again, humiliate mine to the point she realizes a life-saving strategy.

Is it fair? Hell, no. But that's the world in which we live because WE have decided that what's shown to our kids will never effect "us" personally.

Right.

We now find ourselves protecting our loved ones against the very things we thought wrong but not so wrong as to raise a voice against.

It's a sad day... for all of us. For our little innocents the most, though. My goodness, what have they done other than be brought into this world?

The next time any of us decide that it's all a matter of "freedom of speech" and the extension of that liberty, imagine another taking liberty with it and liberty with a child.... your child .... "'cuz it's all ok... just take a look around my world... it's a freedom of speech, of art, don't you see?"

I'm ranting, I know. Sorry. But it hurts so to see people get filthy in blaming others for what they've, themselves, contributed to.

In that I mean, it's great to them that their own are protected and that seems good enough. Well, it's not.

There are some kids who need moms and dads watching for them. Looking for them on their way from the school bus to the house. Watching and asking questions.

Just like those "good, old days" I used hear about.

They're kids, for crying out loud. Babies, even. We have now people literally yanking them from the streets. Then we all rely on Amber Alerts, blame the cops if not found, blame the parents, ....

Yah. Ask ourselves who has sat back and said, 'never will this effect me and mine?

God Bless the Little Ones,

C.

[JustPiper]

A very powerful post Claire!

[JustPiper]

Have at it Rebel Rouser ;) My kinda girl!

[Steve Eisenberg]

There have been more than one instance where two children were approached and threatened with a gun. One ran, the other complied with the threat. Only the runner survived.

This would be of relevance if the child that survived had gone to Mr. Stuber's escape training, and the other had parents like my wife and I, who do not teach stranger danger. Was it the case?

[BushMeister]

You are 100% wrong. Teach children and adults to NEVER let anyone take them away, to what police call a "Secondary Crime Scene", where they will almost certainly be absued and/or killed.

Everyone should read this:

SecondaryCrimeScene

Years ago, my girlfriend was confronted by 4-5 men in a subway connecting tunnel, and had the sense to resist their attempts to get her to go to a deserted area. Thank God she did, 'cause all she lost was her purse.

You advice and attitude are truly ill-informed and unsettling.

[BushMeister]

This info is so important, I'm going to post it in its entirety:

"Get in the Car or I'll Shoot! One of the most terrifying crime scenarios begins with a criminal attempting to force a victim into a car, or somehow get them to a remote location. Make no mistake as this is deadly serious...

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER SHOULD YOU EVER ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE TAKEN TO A REMOTE LOCATION!!! AWAY FROM HELP, YOU WILL HAVE THE LEAST CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

Law enforcement officers refer to the "remote location" as a secondary crime scene. Generally the secondary crime is rape, assault and murder.

Think about it. You are accosted on the street or in your home. The criminal can get your wallet, your jewelery, your purse and car keys. If they insist on taking you somewhere against your will it is for one purpose and one purpose only... to isolate you from help so they can hurt you as badly and for as long as they want. Victims, particularly women, who have allowed themselves to be driven into the swamps, woods or abandoned warehouses of some criminal's choosing have suffered the most horrible torture, sometimes for days on end. In many cases, the process ends only when the victim dies.

But he had a gun, what else could I do...?

RUN SCREAMING. Police statistics show that the likelihood of a criminal actually shooting at a fleeing victim, particularly in a public environment, is relatively low. The chance of being hit is even lower, and the chance that any hit is life-threatening is lower yet. If you are badly shot, at least it will be in public where you are likely to receive aid as compared to some ditch or swamp where nobody will find your body for years. The chance of dying if you go to a secondary crime scene is staggering.

Police Teach the 50/50 Rule as a way of looking at this issue. If you look at the progression of events that begin the moment you decide to run from a Bad Guy with a gun, you will see how quickly your chance of survival goes up when compared with the statistics of being taken to a secondary crime scene. The 50/50 Rule simply surmises that at every turn, the chance of a good or bad outcome is a flat 50/50 (when in fact the odds are statistically greater in many categories, but lets just walk through the 50/50 rule as it is taught.

IF YOU DECIDE TO RUN,
the chance a Bad Guy will decide to shoot at you is 50%.
OF THE 50% THAT SHOOT,
the chance he will hit you at all are 50%
(thus a 25% chance of being hit)

OF THE 25% THAT ARE HIT
the chance of it being a serious wound are 50%
(thus a 12.5% chance of serious wound)

OF THE 12.5% SERIOUSLY WOUNDED
the chance of fatality is 50%
(thus a 6.25% probability of being killed if you run)

IN CONTRAST... the chance of being killed, wounded and/or tortured at a secondary crime scene are so high as to be considered "a statistical certainty" in most law enforcement evaluations. You cannot guarantee that your experience will follow statistical averages, but since an average is just that, the odds appear overwhelmingly to favor avoidance or resistance rather than compliance in moving to a secondary crime scene.

This topic is not one for flowery prose or fancy analogies. If you are accosted and told to get in a car, do anything in your power to get away. Dropping a purse or wallet may provide a distraction as criminals often will track a source of money and even a step or two head start can make a huge difference. Make use of any cover available, such as ducking behind a car or van, or running through a doorway. Anything you can put between you and the bad guy that he cannot shoot through will help keep you alive. Scream as loud as you can and try to draw as much attention as you can, but do not EVER allow a criminal to take you away from help and away from safety."

Will children be able to implement this advice? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But certainly not if they're not given the advice in the first place.

[Ciexyz]

This article assumes that a child will be able to overcome her initial shock and then react. In my personal experience, I found that I was "frozen" in the initial moments of an attack.

I'm female, in my 20's at the time, coming home from work at midnite in my car, and three threatening young men stopped their car in front of me, forcing me to slam on my breaks. They jumped out of their car and ran back to my car (it was dark on a suburban road). They started screaming and banging on my windows and kicking at the side of my car, shouting, open up!

I thought the window on my driver's side was going to cave in (they caused significant damage to my car.) At this point in time, I seemed to freeze. Everything seemed to me to be happening in slow motion. I was frozen in the seat of my car. I wanted to scream, I was trying to make myself scream, but nothing would come out.

After some seconds, I remembered my umbrella with the four inch point that lay under my seat. I remember thinking, if the window goes, then I can jab that point in one of the attackers' faces. So I reached slowly, deliberately under my seat.

I assume that they thought I was reaching for a gun, and they ran off. They hit their car in reverse and stopped just short of my bumper, then drove off. If I hadn't still been in a sort of frozen state, I would have put my car in reverse and sped backwards. But I found that I couldn't think entirely clearly.

I've shared this story on message boards before. (Gun owners love it, I'm sure!) Maybe it will help someone realize how to mentally prepare for stress during an attack situation.

[Oorang]

I am stunned by your post.

Freepers of all people should know what it takes to deal with this kind of person (hint: 2nd amendment).

I am very pro-2nd amendment. Life NRA member, annual contributor to CCRKB, SAF and others. Have concealed carry in two states, etc., etc. When it comes to 2nd amendment you are preaching to choir here. BUT, children cannot legally carry.

I want the kidnappers to be scared, not my kids

This sounds so PC it is astonishing but perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are trying to say. Kids should be scared of kidnappers. So scared that their adrenaline kicks in and they fight and scream with all their might. Would you rather they didn't fight for their lives at all?

There is no body of evidence indicating it works for kids. Even if the teaching is right, studies of these programs showed that the children wildly misinterpret what they are taught.

I understand you read this along time ago and cannot find the links. But, if these "studies" were valid I feel quite certain that they would still be out there for you to find and post or similar studies with similar results to back up your claim would be online for you to post. Until then I'm not buying it. As far as "children wildly misinterpret what they are taught" I give the average child a lot more credit than you, or these "studies" do. Children, taught properly, can learn anything whether it is math, english or self-defense techniques. Children, given half a chance, crave learning. It sounds to me like you want children to be defenseless and helpless which does not need to be the case.

[JustPiper]

I do know I would not want your handle

[JustPiper]

A few weeks ago, my daughter was taking out the trash! The trash people! This guy with a dog, with plenty of room in the alley to walk, comes up right behind her right next to her and good thing I was watching out an open window and had the instinct and peripheral vision to pick up on him!

He begin 'grilling' her, and I replied to his first querie and the look on his face! Saw him again about 1/4 mile away, all the streets were one way when I tried to follow him to see where 'he' lived to send my hubby and 6'2" son over to his house asking questions. This incident could have took my daughter's life but for two reasons, the one being obvious on my end but 'she' stepped to the side and back and came upstairs quickly while I engaged him!... this is the same daughter that was nearly kidnapped at the age of 2 at Woodfield Mall.

[BibChr]

But that Child Lures site doesn't seem to have anything much except ads to buy their stuff. Or did I miss something substantial?

Dan

[BibChr]

ping

[GatorGirl]

Very good post.

I'd like to add one thing. A while back, I was listening to someone (TV or radio, I don't know) and they said to teach your children not just to scream and kick and yell, but to actually yell "help" and "this is not my daddy/mommy!!!" so people wouldn't assume the crying, kicking, screaming child is merely having a tantrum.

Anything to give that child a chance to get away! Thanks! GG

[GatorGirl]

Omigosh, you're right!

[spunkets]

" they can learn techniques to resist and escape predators"

I got a Buck Special for Christmas when I was a kid. Just the right tool for an effective defense. In those days though, very few of the adults would be mad if the kids hacked up the molester.

[JustPiper]

Each day in the United States, more than 2,000 children are reported missing -- nearly 800,000 each year, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

If Leanna was abducted by a stranger, she's one of about 57,000 such cases annually, Justice Department studies show. But, of those, only a tiny fraction -- 115 annually -- are the stereotypical, long-term kidnapping by a stranger -- the kind of high-profile crimes most often reported in the media.

Of those 115, about 60 percent are recovered alive. Nearly half are sexually assaulted, and nearly all are taken 50 or more miles from their homes.

Stranger abduction "is the smallest percentage of missing children. But when it does happen, there's still good hope that they may come home," Wetterling said, noting recent cases in California and Minnesota where missing children were recovered safe after being abducted.

The majority of missing children nationally -- 45 percent -- are ages 15-17. About 30 percent are 12-14, 14 percent are 6-11 and 12 percent are 5 or younger.

Other links:

http://www.4momsathome.com/articles/vanished.html

Dealing with abduction fears:
Program teaches children ways to prevent, survive the unthinkable
By Judi Brinegar
Staff Writer, The Courier-Tribune
http://www.courier-tribune.com/nws/escape1030.html

[JustPiper]

Steve is a former democrat if that explains it?

[bellas_sister]

When I was 7 in 1977, we lived in Okalahoma City. I was playing Barbie's in the Jeep Land Cruiser around dusk and a man approached the vehicle and said he "had presents for me in his car parked right over there". I told him to go get my mom and started to honk the horn, rolled up the window locked the doors and layed on the horn... he left. My mom yelled out the window to stop playing in the car. Then when I was 16 now living in Toluca Lake, CA. I had a horrible experience when a guy climbed in my window while I was sleeping, he said he had a gun. By the grace of God he ended up leaving with out anyone being hurt. I don't know if he was ever caught. Funny thing is the cops scolded me for telling him "I think you need to leave". I gues they thought I should have been submissive as not to get hurt. I think it is a control/power thing with preditors. The reality of this issue is always in the back of my mind and I have since become, some would say paranoid. My husband doesn't understand my constant concern to have all the windows shut and locked even in the sweltering summer nights.

[JustPiper]

"FIRE" gets the most attention!

I also heard on Norville, who herself gave her kids a 'codeword'. Don't! Because they can get that out of a child!

[JustPiper]

A replacing E was my first thought with his first post

[JustPiper]

Try this post Dan -g-

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1072397/posts?page=33#33

[JustPiper]

Glad you 'survived' these ordeals! I've pinged a cop to this thread to help us, hope he's on ;)

I had a terrible incident at 12, beside's the umpteen 'flashings' when I was a kid...the news, yes I even listened to it on my transistor back when , of hearing several boys were murdered here (infamous case)
and also hearing of 9 children being kidnapped and found decapitated etc. lead me to good instincts, because my mother's advice then was run ;)

But remember Silence is not golden in this case! Scream! Scream! Scream!

[Quix]

GREAT ADVICE.

I'D SUGGEST PRACTICING A VARIETY OF ROLE PLAYS AT LEAST MONTHLY FOR 6-8 MONTHS UNTIL IT BECOMES VIRTUALLY 2ND NATURE TO THE KIDS--REGARDLESS OF THEIR COMPLAINTS OR TEASING ABOUT THE REQUIREMENT to practice.

[trussell]

Excellent post JustPiper. Bookmarked, so I can refer to it and teach my kids the valuable lessons included in this article.

My children were taken 2 years ago by their father. Just disappeared one day while I was at my vo-tech classes. My daughter was 6 and my son was 21 months. My daughter is very frightened by the idea of being abducted by her father or a stranger. This may help to give her peace of mind. I have already told her to never go quietly!! Always scream, and kick, and bite, and punch.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Just posted this on another thread...would do good here too.

I just heard about the following website on the local news. I debated about whether I should post it or send it freepmail. I chose to post it...I don't endorse it, but leave it to YOU decide for YOURSELVES whether you think it could be a valuable tool.

If you want on or off either of these lists, please let me know...

http://perverted-justice.com/ Here is an excerpt from the associated article:
channel 9

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Is a pedophile living in your neighborhood? A controversial Web site may have the answer. It's a Web site that actually catches local men trying to arrange sex with kids online, KMBC's Jeremy Hubbard reported.

[Cindy]

Are you a parent sir?

[spunkets]

My initial comment was just a quick summary. The article from CNN had one useful piece of advice that I remembered, that was to fight back. The other was provided by a poster after a story, that was to have the right focus and attitude.

When the kids are young the parents have to watch at all times. There is no way they can be left out of sight. During that time they can be taught and later weaned at a pace that depends on their ability to demonstrate safe independent action to the hidden observer-the ever watchful perent.

What they are taught is very important if they are to really be able to defend themselves. Defense relies primarily on focus, attitude and skills. Both the CNN article and the Child Lures Prevention site fall far short of worthwhile material that would provide for an effective defense. Both for the parent as a teacher and the kid. Although they fall short, there is still some good stuff there. They also sell books w/o posting the content, or enough to know what you're buying.

Here's an example which indicates the mortal shortfall in their entire plan.

" Stress the importance of reporting rumors or threats of violence, including bomb threats and weapon possession by schoolmates. Reinforce that reporting can be done anonymously, but that school officials must be told for the safety of everyone."

They push nonviolence, ignorance, dependence and obfuscate the true nature of any confrontation the kid will experience. It's a clash of minds and will. They teach unabashedly that weapons possesion is a bad thing. The kid needs to know how to look around and improvise in a flash. For instance, some of the members of the flight that went down in PA on 9-11 attempted to boiled water to toss it on one, or more of the hijackers. Their reaction should have been for one guy to take the coffee maker and use it as a bludgeon, another to crack the pot and use it as a knife and another to take the cord and use it as a whip. There is also little use for a boxcutter against someone with a jacket, or shirt wrapped around their sleeve attacking with jabs, kicks and blocks, all at the same time.

That was just a mention of some of the skills. The others include being aware of your surroundings and the people in it, w/o making much of a conscious effort to do so. Being able to read the folks in those surroundings.

Like some others on the thread noted, martial arts schools are the best places to learn these things. Finding one that is worth it is work though. No aerobic type, community center dance and fun type, or simple method learning. You're after improving the mind primarily. The object is to gain the focus, attitude, self confidence, awareness and physical defensive skills to ward off an attack w/o even getting physical. The physical skills are usually never enough to overcome the attacker, it's the mental ones that will. That's what those other sites lack.

What a student is looking for first in one of those places is the what the school's owner and instructors offer the mind(as above). A good school will offer you that right away and let you know that the physical ain't coming soon and in many cases, not at all. That's, because it's a way of life. It's a way of life that differs from what the 2 above mentioned sites offer. Still, you'll learn that rotating your arms in a circle is one of the dumbest moves you can make. At least they will teach you an extremely effective attack, which in itself is the defense.

The best schools I have ever noted are the hard schools, Wing Chun, karate, ect. The only one I know offhand is the Degerburger(sp) academy in Chicago that teaches all arts and they tend to have pro instructors, that teach pros. Books are good too. For keeping other peoples hands off, wing chun has the best defensive stance and it's improved and illustrated by Bruce Lee( no it's not movie stuff) in The tao of wing chun, B. Lee. Other books are out there, but I don't remember the names.

With teaching from all sources, a kid will grow and never be a victim.

[spunkets]

tao of wing chunjeet kun do.(CRS)

[Samwise]

Will children be able to implement this advice? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But certainly not if they're not given the advice in the first place.

Try to teach them and then pray for their safety.

Thanks for the ping.

[thecabal]

Unfortunately, it looks like they found Carlie's body. It breaks my heart to see that security cam tape of her being lead away to the slaughter by that filthy piece of s***. Hopefully, this will teach people to fight back. Once you are taken away, your chances are slim.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Are you a parent sir?

Yes. Hopefully ones that sets my children achieveable tasks.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Hopefully, this will teach people to fight back.

Hopefully the right man has been caught and will be terribly punished, and such horrors will become less common so that people don't feel compelled to set for an 11 year old girl the impossible task of fighting back against an experienced 37 year old male kidnapper.

However, in this vale of tears, not all evil can be stopped. There will be people, evil and strong, in each generation. The task of stopping them is set for adults.

[Steve Eisenberg]

From a press report:

Smith's neighbors, Ron and Linda Thompson, said they're shocked by Smith's arrest, but concede that the man seen on the videotape looks like him. They said he has children and is always "great" with them.

No doubt. Satan is a clever and formidable opponent.