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Roman Catholic church raises some eyebrows by warning politicians
St. Louis Post-Dispatch. ^ | 2/7/044 | Phillip O'Connor

Posted on 02/07/2004 5:43:37 PM PST by Valin

Edited on 05/11/2004 5:35:59 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

For a long time in American politics, many voters believed that the election of a Catholic president would lead the country under the sway of the pope on state matters, according to presidential historians. The election of John F. Kennedy buried those perceptions.


(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...


TOPICS: Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; catholicpoliticians; kerry

1 posted on 02/07/2004 5:43:38 PM PST by Valin
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To: Valin
I've always wondered how so many Catholics can say that they are pro-choice, etc., and still claim to be following their faith. This article just brings to light one of the more prominent ones right now. I'm proud of the priest mentioned in this article, I'd do the same thing if I were in his position. Kerry and others like him give us Catholics a bad name. Thanks for the article.
2 posted on 02/07/2004 5:49:33 PM PST by Eisenhower
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To: Valin
I fully support the Catholic Church on this stance. If, as a member of a particular organization (Church or Boy Scouts) you go against their teachings/beliefs, than go elsewhere.
The organization doesn't want you nor do the true member.
3 posted on 02/07/2004 5:51:40 PM PST by GreenCell
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To: Valin
but that he disagreed with him on the issue of choice

No bias here, huh?

4 posted on 02/07/2004 5:53:04 PM PST by 1stFreedom
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To: Valin
The issue is a simple one of honesty and truth in advertising. A person who is NOT a Catholic ought not to claim he IS one.

And a person who is in favour of abortion, gay marriage, and the whole social rot in America today is NO CATHOLIC...
probably no Christian at ALL....
5 posted on 02/07/2004 5:53:12 PM PST by Chris Talk (What Earth now is, Mars once was. What Mars now is, Earth will one day be.)
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To: Valin
I didn't think Kerry was a practicing Catholic.
6 posted on 02/07/2004 5:54:11 PM PST by Kirkwood
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To: Valin
I didn't think Kerry was a practicing Catholic.
7 posted on 02/07/2004 5:54:20 PM PST by Kirkwood
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To: Eisenhower
and if you want to be Catholic, some things are non-negotiable

Correct.

Those who legislate sin are no longer Catholics.

8 posted on 02/07/2004 5:54:41 PM PST by Republic If You Can Keep It
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To: Valin; dubyaismypresident; xsmommy; Texan5
Good article.
9 posted on 02/07/2004 5:59:22 PM PST by Gabz (Smoke gnatzies: small minds buzzing in your business - SWAT'EM)
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To: GreenCell
He said it was not appropriate in the United States for a lawmaker to legislate personal religious beliefs for the rest of the country.

Who told Kerry that this was a personal religious view? Is prosecuting murder a "personal religious view"? Is religion as a source of ones beliefs with respect to society and good public order out of line or unconstitutional? If so when did this come about in America? Its news to me that,say, an atheist, may recommend any position in Law but that a Jew or Christian may not!

Will anyone in the media ask these quesrtions of Kerry? No.
10 posted on 02/07/2004 5:59:32 PM PST by TalBlack ("Tal, no song means anything without someone else....")
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To: Valin
It's one thing for the Catholic church to behave like any other interest group and say, 'We have these positions and hope people will be persuaded by these positions.' That doesn't raise fears," said John Green, an Akron University professor who studies the intersection of religion and politics. "But when it gets to the next level, where religious sanctions are used against politicians because of positions they take. . ., that does raise some of the fears that people had back in the 1960s. I think that tends to increase the concern that the church may be playing an inappropriate role in democracy."

This is so Barbra Streisand.

First of all, churches are permitted to speak up on issues, but not on partisan candidates.

Secondly, they are permitted to control what is appropriate for their religion beliefs, so the esteemed prof is full of horse manure.

11 posted on 02/07/2004 6:00:03 PM PST by notpoliticallycorewrecked
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To: Gabz
But today, growing calls by church leaders about the duty of Catholic politicians to oppose issues ranging from abortion to euthanasia to gay marriage or face sanction is reviving questions among some political scientists and others about the church's role in politics.

You can be Catholic
You can be a pro-death politician
But you can't be a Catholic pro-death politican

I know, there are atleast a dozen of them in the Senate, but times they are a changin'

12 posted on 02/07/2004 6:02:27 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Arlen Specter supports the regime in Iran, which is the same one that took our people hostage)
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To: dubyaismypresident
Yes, and we have had this discussion, which is why I thought to bring this to your attention!
13 posted on 02/07/2004 6:07:15 PM PST by Gabz (Smoke gnatzies: small minds buzzing in your business - SWAT'EM)
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To: Valin
Since I'm not Kerry's confessor, I can't speak for his Catholicity. However, it is my understanding that he is divorced and remarried, and his first wife is still living. If that is the case, he cannot recieve Communion for that reason, no matter his position on abortion.
14 posted on 02/07/2004 6:07:32 PM PST by Rushian
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To: Gabz
I know. I just wanted to contribute that to this thread too :-)
15 posted on 02/07/2004 6:08:10 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Arlen Specter supports the regime in Iran, which is the same one that took our people hostage)
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To: xsmommy
"Because if you're receiving Holy Communion in a state of grave sin, you're committing another sin," he said.

Question asked, and answered.

16 posted on 02/07/2004 6:13:02 PM PST by patton (I wish we could all look at the evil of abortion with the pure, honest heart of a child.)
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To: GreenCell
Just proves that abortion should not be a political issue, how in the hell did abortion get into the chambers of congress for debate! This is a moral issue and I could care less what Kerry are anyone else thinks about the issue! Its the economy stupid!
17 posted on 02/07/2004 6:22:00 PM PST by shootergrassyknoll (Remember how long you were taught,,John Wilkes Booth was a lone nut !)
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To: Valin
"We have to be cautious about this. These fears are most plausible when it comes to things like denying Catholic politicians Communion. That's a religious sanction. It's one thing to say we think Senator Kerry is wrong. But it's quite another to deny the means of grace because of a political position."

This is moronic. The Catholic Church has a set of beliefs. Abortion is one of them. If he chooses to defy the Church's teachings, he is free to do so. But the Church is then also free to act accordingly and deny him Communion. This clown is speaking as though Kerry has a "right" to have Communion.

The Latin Mass, A Cultural Counterattack

18 posted on 02/07/2004 6:23:56 PM PST by Paleoguy
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To: Rushian
I also would like to know about the first Mrs. Kerry. I wonder if they used the disgraceful cop-out of annulment. (To me that would make the daughters ilegitimate.) I understand that recently His Ketchupness has been abstaining on abortion votes...trying to get out of this. Three cheers for these priests...(now I hope they will stop annulment for any marriages longer than Brittany's.)
19 posted on 02/07/2004 6:34:24 PM PST by linton59
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To: Valin
"But when it gets to the next level, where religious sanctions are used against politicians because of positions they take. . ., that does raise some of the fears that people had back in the 1960s. I think that tends to increase the concern that the church may be playing an inappropriate role in democracy."

A church has every right to make its own membership rules!

20 posted on 02/07/2004 6:46:04 PM PST by GeronL (www.ArmorforCongress.com ............... Support a FReeper for Congress)
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To: Valin
...it's quite another thing to deny the means of grace because of a political postion....

....he would be denied the means of grace because he is going against the teachings of the Church and is not remorseful.

I would like to see more Catholic Churches remind their congregations that abortion is against the Church's teachings and, thus, Catholics should consider this when electing Officials. Something to think about...if we end up with only liberals on the Supreme Court, it will probably be against the law to talk about pro-life issues since that may offend someone ...just like the word 'Christmas' offends.
21 posted on 02/07/2004 6:51:30 PM PST by 4integrity (AJ)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Valin; Petronski; Salvation; My2Cents; backhoe; PhiKapMom
Thanks valin.

*Catholic ping please*


backhoe: for you files
23 posted on 02/07/2004 6:57:28 PM PST by onyx (Your secrets are safe with me and all my friends.)
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To: Valin
Some Catholic is going to have to help me with the logic here, but wouldn't giving Communion to any person who is manifestly not in keeping with Church teaching be a sin on the part of the Priest giving the Communion?

If so, wouldn't that sin, at that very moment, somehow contaminate the Communion? Not only for the Priest and the person receiving it, but for any other persons receiving Communion after him or her?

I take it as given that a Priest who is not in a state of Grace cannot conduct Mass or perform other sacred rituals.

By this logic, and I admit I am not a Catholic so I have no idea, wouldn't any politican who asks a Priest to give him Communion when he is not in the condition to receive it, be asking the Priest to commit a sin?

Sounds like a mighty arrogant thing for a politician to do, if you ask me.
24 posted on 02/07/2004 7:06:20 PM PST by Ronin (When the fox gnaws -- Smile!!!)
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To: onyx
Hey over here.
A Southern Baptist and I agree with the Catholics on this one

There is too much politics in the Church and
not enough Church in politics.
IMHOM
25 posted on 02/07/2004 7:18:32 PM PST by WKB (3!~)
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To: Valin; All
"Because if you're receiving Holy Communion in a state of grave sin, you're committing another sin," he said.

You have to be perfect to receive Holy Communion and that receiving it in a state of sin is committing another sin? They say that being pro-choice is a GRAVE sin, but sin is sin in God's eyes, big or small. According to the above logic, the line at the Communion would be non-existent in my church.

Catholics, I am not attacking you, just having a hard time understanding your logic.
26 posted on 02/07/2004 7:19:22 PM PST by Chong (God Bless and Protect our Troops.)
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To: Paleoguy
Just for the fun of it... Here is a short list of Catholic teaching. See how many of you are real Catholics. If your are not a real Catholic, you should leave the church That way we won't have a priest shortage. Do you ever engaged in sex without the goal of creating children? Do you favor the legal sale of birth control devices? Ever been divorced? (Any friends or family that have divorced?--it is up to you to tell them that they are no longer welcome.) Do you favor Latin mass, or favor undoing any of the other Vatican II changes?—you can not be a real Catholic and oppose the pope on this. Do you support the Iraq war? The pope has ruled this to be an unjust war. You can not believe that the pope is right on some issues and wrong on other issues and be a real Catholic. Same goes for not supporting all the bishops--they are appointed by the pope and as such are direct representatives of God...to speak ill of a bishop is to go against the pope, so you should leave the church.

Kidding aside, there are very few issues that you will find complete agreement with in any church. In the 4th century the Council of Nice tried to come up with a set of common beliefs. About all they could come up with is the Nicene Creed that is read each Sunday in Catholic churches and many Protestant churches. And there was far from total agreement by the writers even for this short document of faith.

The way to change peoples minds is by quiet persuasion. Papal decrees have a nasty habit of backfiring—remember that German fellow named Luther that no one had ever heard of. What is tragic is that public opinion is slowly but steadily moving towards some restrictions on abortion. My fear is that this grandstanding by a few bishops will do more to reverse this progress than anything a few pro-choice politicians can do.
27 posted on 02/07/2004 7:29:49 PM PST by lnbjohnson
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To: Valin
"An ABC News-Washington Post poll last year found that 88 percent of Catholics find birth control morally acceptable, 62 percent found the death penalty morally acceptable and 30 percent found abortion acceptable."

Seems to me that regardless of whether these statistics represent the rank-and-file Catholic or not, it's the church LEADERS who'll be doing the honors of putting a stop to the hypocracy. Sheeple generally don't think things through before forming an opinion.

28 posted on 02/07/2004 7:33:28 PM PST by Paulie
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To: Valin
It's one thing to say we think Senator Kerry is wrong. But it's quite another to deny the means of grace because of a political position."

This statement tells me that this guy has no idea at all what he is talking about. A catholic must be IN a state of grace (free from sin through confession and repentance) before he/she can receive Communion. The sacrament is not a means of grace, it is a means of Communion with the Lord and the church.

29 posted on 02/07/2004 7:42:41 PM PST by peteram
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To: Paulie
That would be all well and good IF the Church of Rome was a democracy.
30 posted on 02/07/2004 7:45:44 PM PST by Valin (Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.)
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To: Valin
For a long time in American politics, many voters believed that the election of a Catholic president would lead the country under the sway of the pope on state matters, according to presidential historians. The election of John F. Kennedy buried those perceptions.

Well, YEAH - he and his siblings drank and swived and lied and drugged just like any OTHER sybaritic heathens...

31 posted on 02/07/2004 7:46:05 PM PST by solitas (sleep well, gentle reader; but remember there ARE such things...)
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To: shootergrassyknoll
Now that is a bigotted slam.
32 posted on 02/07/2004 7:47:00 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Arlen Specter supports the regime in Iran, which is the same one that took our people hostage)
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To: lnbjohnson
Kidding aside [...]

Your oversimplification and historical and factual distortion aside....yours was a funny post. :-)

33 posted on 02/07/2004 7:53:42 PM PST by Proud2BAmerican
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To: GreenCell
The organization doesn't want you nor do the true member.[sic]

So, it's not what God wants but what the 'club members' want? Go read Romans 8:28 - God has who he wants where He wants them for His reasons - and maybe it's to temper YOU, or to have you work with/on this individual?

Would you agree that He puts people in our paths not necessarily for us to shove them out of the way but quite the OPPOSITE reason?

34 posted on 02/07/2004 7:53:56 PM PST by solitas (sleep well, gentle reader; but remember there ARE such things...)
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To: shootergrassyknoll
Abortion is a political issue and one created by an arrogant court speaking for an arrogant social elite. Instead of waiting for the remainder of the states to reform their abortion laws, they decided to impose a national standard.
35 posted on 02/07/2004 7:54:40 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: lnbjohnson
Grandstanding when the issues at stake are far more serious than they were when Cuomo gave his Notre Dame speech? When he spoke the Supreme Court had not given constitutional cover to selective infanticide. The Democratic Party had not yet established a religious test for national candidacy which required all presidential candidates to support the most liberal abortion law in the world outside the old Communist block. Cuomo's speech is pure sophistry and in any case does not apply to the present situation. Sorry, but pragmatism does not work. Kerry is sucking up to the moral equivalents of the communists.
36 posted on 02/07/2004 8:04:15 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Valin
Blah, blah, blah for most of the article. It's a variation on a theme we've seen a dozen time already on this forum, in regards to Archbishop Burke alone (applause in his general direction before I move on).

This part pissed me off:

An ABC News-Washington Post poll last year found that 88 percent of Catholics find birth control morally acceptable, 62 percent found the death penalty morally acceptable and 30 percent found abortion acceptable.

Putting "the death penalty," something which is morally justifiable according to Catholic dogma, in the company of those other issues is very wrong!

Our current pope is personally against the death penalty. He has made very good arguments agasint it. What he has not done, nor attempted to do, is to pretend that his opinion on the matter carries the weight of a binding Church teaching.

Incidentally, the idea that polling is a good way to determine eternal truth just makes me giggle at the idiots who believe it.

37 posted on 02/07/2004 8:04:16 PM PST by Snuffington
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To: shootergrassyknoll
Birth control and abortion are moral issues, no laws will ever force people who want either to change their minds.
38 posted on 02/07/2004 8:05:59 PM PST by tkathy (The nihilistic islamofascists and the nihilistic liberals are trying to destroy this country)
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To: Valin
It's simple, if they don't want to adhere to Catholic doctrine, they should join another church. You can't be against everything a church stands for and still call yourself a member of that church. Most politicians use their religion for political advantage.
39 posted on 02/07/2004 8:07:54 PM PST by McGavin999 (Evil thrives when good men do nothing!)
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To: linton59
I wonder if they used the disgraceful cop-out of annulment. (To me that would make the daughters ilegitimate.)

Annulment does not make children illegitimate.

40 posted on 02/07/2004 8:14:23 PM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: tkathy
Birth control and abortion are public issues, because they involved services licensed by the States. As for changing minds, Prohibition did not end the consumption of alcohol in the United States but it greatly reduced it. The "pro-choice" crowd is not fearful that the repeal of Toe V. Wade would end abortion in the United States, they are fearful that it would reduce it. They regard it as a necessary backup for contraceptives.
41 posted on 02/07/2004 8:31:06 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: WKB
Hey over here.
A Southern Baptist and I agree with the Catholics on this one.




Thank you, sweet man. You're my kind of Southern Baptist.
42 posted on 02/07/2004 8:36:47 PM PST by onyx (Your secrets are safe with me and all my friends.)
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To: RobbyS
Prohibition empowered a vast criminal underground, a disrespect for the law, and a backlash against religion that exists today. You have to change people's hearts and minds rather than forced laws.
43 posted on 02/07/2004 8:46:44 PM PST by tkathy (The nihilistic islamofascists and the nihilistic liberals are trying to destroy this country)
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To: lnbjohnson
"Just for the fun of it... Here is a short list of Catholic teaching. See how many of you are real Catholics. If your are not a real Catholic, you should leave the church That way we won't have a priest shortage"

I didn't say he should "leave the church"...I said that the Church was perfectly within its rights to deny him Communion.

44 posted on 02/08/2004 9:59:37 AM PST by Paleoguy
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