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The Return Of The Giant Sucking Sound
SFGATE.com (The SF Chronicle) ^ | 02/09/04 | Adam Sparks

Posted on 02/08/2004 9:51:08 AM PST by sfwarrior

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:44 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Since 2001, the United States has lost 2.8 million manufacturing jobs. Hello! Is anybody listening? This is a crisis. Our house is on fire, and few in Congress are paying attention. And, at the rate things are going, the only jobs even college graduates will be able to get will be in the service industry. That's political lingo for flipping hamburgers.


(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: calgov2002; china; economy; factories; factory; freemarkets; immigrantlist; immigrants; india; irs; jobs; loss; manufacturing; overseas; protectionisms; tariffs; taxes; trade
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It's time for conservatives to stop the bleeding of jobs overseas, protect labor and our economy from being a virtual nothing. Our staggering debts to 3rd world nations like China and India will soon make us become an impoverished 3rd world nation too. We can not always be at odds with labor and pretend to want to continue to be the majority party. The economy is the number #1 issue in the nation and W ignores this at his own peril.
1 posted on 02/08/2004 9:51:08 AM PST by sfwarrior
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To: I_Love_My_Husband; *calgov2002; snopercod; Grampa Dave; Carry_Okie; SierraWasp; Gophack; RonDog; ...
ping
2 posted on 02/08/2004 9:52:27 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: A. Pole
ping
4 posted on 02/08/2004 9:55:11 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sfwarrior
bump for later!
5 posted on 02/08/2004 9:56:17 AM PST by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: sfwarrior
It's time to stop the insane regulations and social engineering that are forcing companies offshore. The liability insurance, costs of doing business, and other costs are staggering.
6 posted on 02/08/2004 9:56:36 AM PST by OpusatFR (Hillary's health care means culling the herd to keep down costs.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: sfwarrior
The truth is that the net loss in jobs is approx. 330,000!

Don't let the Rats dictate their version of the "truth."

This is the real story (from the Investors Business Daily as read on the Rush show). Partial transcript is below:

I've got a story today from Investors Business Daily. You know, I was tempted to fire off a note to Bill Schneider today but it wouldn't matter. The fact of the matter is we had this number back in I guess it was either September or November, I'm not sure which. Well, it would have been November, yeah, latter part of November. Somebody ran some numbers, the net job loss at that time was 330,000. The number of jobs lost versus the number of jobs created led to a net loss then over the three years of 200 and some odd thousand, 300,000, 330, and that's slowly being wiped out now with the new job creation that's happening with our roaring economy which is leading the world out of its recession, that's not being reported here.

The Investors Business Daily today has a story by Jed Graham, "For nearly a year a debate has been brewing over which of the government's employment measures is wrong. Monthly payroll figures derived from a survey of 160,000 employers show a net loss of 537,000 jobs the past two years. But, the monthly survey of about 60,000 households shows the U.S. has added 2.4 million jobs in that span." Well, we just heard CNN report there are two and a half million jobs lost. Now we find out from Investors Business Daily there are other government numbers that show 2.4 million jobs have been created.

Come on, folks, use your brains on this. This is an ever-expanding economy, I don't care whether we're in a down cycle or not we're always expanding. The population base is always expanding. We are pretty near the statistical full employment number anyway. It's just not logical to assume that all we do is lose jobs. And he didn't say on CNN net job loss, that's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to create the impression that there are two and a half people that used to work that don't because they can't. And that's not what happens. People find work and leave work all the time. It is a cycle, you know it yourself. This idea that there haven't been any jobs created, these guys that report this know this is all a bunch of bohunk but that doesn't fit the agenda, it doesn't fit what the purpose here is. This is to paint a picture of doom and gloom of the U.S. economy, going into this election season, because it matches what? It matches precisely the Democratic Party presidential election playbook. And it just isn't the case. It's the exact opposite.

The economy is roaring back. It's bringing the world back out of its global recession. There are jobs being created. We just had a story the other day of all the unreported self-employed jobs that these employment surveys do not cover. And there were 15 million jobs, net 15 million jobs that do not get reported as people employed in this country. Well, throw that in and it wipes out any of Bill Schneider or any other Democrat's number of two million or two and a half million jobs lost. All of this is a crock. This is the most powerful economic engine in America, and it's rolling, and it's expanding and it is growing. We are the wealthiest country on the face of the earth. To try to paint a picture of this country as a soup line, soup kitchen on the way to depression, is simply purposeful dishonesty, pure and simple.

8 posted on 02/08/2004 9:59:21 AM PST by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: sfwarrior
We are not ready yet. The pain is not intense enough. Americans are not willing to work hard enough and don't have the drive to succeed.

Their isn't enough Americans in our science and technology graduate schools. The low paid manufacturing jobs are filled by illegal. We sit on our collective buts and complain that someone should fix the problem - maybe government.

But then again, government workers are notoriously lazy - how can they help?

Sadly, we may have to have another recession to get the message. I hope not.
9 posted on 02/08/2004 10:01:20 AM PST by CHUCKfromCAL
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To: sfwarrior
I'm inclined to agree with this. But the problem is now very difficult, because it has been building up for at least 60 years. We are hooked on the results, like a drug addict. Moreover, if we put tarriffs on foreign goods, foreign countries will put tarriffs on our goods. Bush has already taken flak for trying to protect the steel industry for a couple of years.

Something certainly has to be done, but it's a real question whether it can be done with the country divided in two by our political parties. At this point it can't be fixed without major pain, and which party will take responsibility for that?
10 posted on 02/08/2004 10:03:23 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: sfwarrior
Now, ironically, even the jobs of those dollar-an-hour Mexican workers are being lost to China and other more impoverished nations.

Isn't the leftie argument for illegal immigrants that they do the work Americans won't? So, they're just doing it in their home countries now. What's the problem?

11 posted on 02/08/2004 10:03:41 AM PST by John Jorsett
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To: sfwarrior
Once the production is all shipped overseas, there will be no one to serve.
12 posted on 02/08/2004 10:05:02 AM PST by dubyagee (I'm working on it...)
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To: sfwarrior
One of these day, the politicians will get a surprise message that corporations may have a lot of money, but they don't vote.

Unfortunately, it will be too late to make any difference.
13 posted on 02/08/2004 10:07:26 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: sfwarrior
Since 2001, the United States has lost 2.8 million manufacturing jobs. Hello! Is anybody listening? This is a crisis.

Is it me or does this kind of talk only surface during election years when Republicans are in office? Did the "giant sucking sound" disappear suddenly in 1992 only to mysteriously return in 2004? I don't think so.

And based on their coddling of the radical homosexual cultural terrorists, the "giant sucking sound" is most likely coming from the headquarter of the DNC...
14 posted on 02/08/2004 10:09:45 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: Cicero
Nothing wrong with protectionism. Let the rest of the natio,s put tariffs on us. We have the natural resources, the know how, and one of the world's largest markets. So?
15 posted on 02/08/2004 10:11:09 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: sfwarrior
We need to be sounding an alarm bell and make sure our politicians know that while free trade sounds good, a high-paying job sounds better.

American's have been sounding the alarm bell but NO ONE IS LISTENING. This very well could cost President Bush the election. I've had enough of these CFR, Globalist traitors. America is in a race to the bottom, and they could care less! By the time they realize what they have done to America, it will be too late. We are at the mercy of the traitors in our own government.

.

16 posted on 02/08/2004 10:11:35 AM PST by NRA2BFree (http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/chainreaction/ValentinesDay.html)
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To: Antoninus
No it has reappeared just in time for the elections. What's happened is that the rate of outsourcing of IT jobs and other white collar jobs to places like India has accelerated to millions per year, and no one is talking about it as a crisis. Or don't you think it is. Remember the white collar jobs were supposed to replace those industrial factory jobs that were already closing due to outsourcing and no one cared about.
17 posted on 02/08/2004 10:13:03 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: John Jorsett
The problem is, they keep sneaking across the border in ever increasing numbers to suck up the socialistic, liberal welfare programs and tax-free wages that allow them to live better here than working for a living in Mexico.

This insanity has to stop no matter whose feelings are hurt.
18 posted on 02/08/2004 10:15:44 AM PST by open mind-closed fist
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To: sfwarrior
Some will point to the fact that there are still manufacturing jobs in the US, and lots of them. The actual numbers haven't slipped as much as I had thought. Where the rubber meets the road though, the fact is with natural growth, we should have hundreds of thousand if not millions more of them at this time.

The present economic recovery has been an utter failure at creating new jobs. A few paultry new job starts are announced every few weeks. In the past manufacturing jobs led economic recoveries, but not any more.

Outsourcing and manufacturing sent overseas have changed the game. Like his father, George Bush is vulnerable this fall. When the numbers of jobs are discussed this fall, it's going to appear whether true or not, that this president does not care about the average guy's ability to find employment.

We can root and holler about our guy all we like, when the American public listen to both sides, I'm not convinced they'll give the president more time. If a Democrat makes the immigration issue a major cause, he's going to get a lot of votes from people who have felt that they have been sold out to foreign interests.

The Democrats unquestionably come the the game with their own bag of trick (downsides), but the American public is desparate for two things. They want jobs brought back home where they belong. They want our nation to return to a sovereign status.

Couple that with the desparation from the right which sees spending at a rate unequaled in recent memory, and you've got some serious problems.

Good luck Mr. President. You're going to need it.
19 posted on 02/08/2004 10:16:56 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: OpusatFR
It's time to stop the insane regulations and social engineering that are forcing companies offshore. The liability insurance, costs of doing business, and other costs are staggering.

You have forgotten to mention the Unions. They have contributed more to this situation than any other reason has. Their demands for higher wages and huge benefit packages have driven many companies out of business in the past. Now they're driving them overseas.

20 posted on 02/08/2004 10:17:51 AM PST by NRA2BFree (http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/chainreaction/ValentinesDay.html)
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To: sfwarrior
A conundrum how do millions of jobs get outsourced and the unemployment rate goes down to 5.6 112,000 jobs added and the IBD (a source more trustworthy than the DNC) puts the giant fart ina tornado at 330,000 jobs lost vice 2.3 million. Election year scare mongering isn't new but it really has become high political theater to scare the hell out of anybody willing to listen to this claptrap.
21 posted on 02/08/2004 10:18:00 AM PST by reluctantwarrior (Strength and Honor)
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To: sfwarrior
Suggest the author go out and buy two or three American cars.
22 posted on 02/08/2004 10:18:54 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: William Creel
Good point.
23 posted on 02/08/2004 10:19:20 AM PST by Clintonfatigued
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
Republicans are starting, albeit slowly, to take notice that it's the economy, and not Iraq, that is the electorate's primary concern. And it will take more than wishful thinking from conservatives and their free-trade prayer beads to right a sinking ship.

Do not miss it.

24 posted on 02/08/2004 10:20:18 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
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To: sfwarrior
The giant sucking sound stopped when Bill Clinton zipped up his pants and left the Oval Office in January '01.
25 posted on 02/08/2004 10:20:36 AM PST by Holden Magroin
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To: All
Prior to the enactment of the dreaded income tax, which began only in 1913, the government imposed very high tariffs, which were levied on imported goods throughout the nation's history from its beginnings in the 18th century through the end of the 1800s. These protectionist tariffs laid the groundwork for the American industrial revolution. The system worked.

The fact free traders want us to forget!

26 posted on 02/08/2004 10:23:36 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
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To: NRA2BFree
There is an even bigger problem than the unions. American corporate executives are the biggest problem. They are drowning themselves in perks, payoffs and bonuses. They spend so much money on themselves that even in good years, the pressure is on to cut costs. If the executives are really concerned about the stockholders, they would outsource their own jobs overseas.
27 posted on 02/08/2004 10:25:14 AM PST by Clintonfatigued
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To: Holden Magroin
Interesting screen name.....The point of the giant sucking sound was an interesting Perotism in '92 I think and it wasn't accurate 12 tears ago and is less so today. SFWarrior suggests that we engage in a Smmot Hawley tariff war with the world and since that directly led to the election of FDR and the depression of 29-32 I would vote for a pass on that course of action.
28 posted on 02/08/2004 10:25:54 AM PST by reluctantwarrior (Strength and Honor)
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To: sfwarrior
Excellent article, points out that tariffs really are conservative and an integral part of what it used to mean to be a Rebublican.
29 posted on 02/08/2004 10:25:54 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: A. Pole
true enough, politically speaking that is. The Dems have no solutions here either, and would raise taxes to boot, for the Dems, this is only a "I feel your pain" issue, and nothing more.
30 posted on 02/08/2004 10:25:54 AM PST by oceanview
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To: sfwarrior
I work in the civil engineering field. That means I work on highway, bridge and infrastructure projects let by federal, state and county governments. The work is accomplished by computer graphics and computer engineering packages.

How long before it becomes politically acceptable for government entities to contract with Indian and Asian engineering firms to perform this work?

Right now, the political climate demands retaining these government funded public works projects for American engineering firms. Eventually, will a perceived greater public interest favor using taxpayer money to hire cheaper labor abroad?
31 posted on 02/08/2004 10:27:39 AM PST by citizen (Write-in Tom Tancredo President 2004!)
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To: Cicero
Something certainly has to be done, but it's a real question whether it can be done with the country divided in two by our political parties.

The Dem/GOP political opportunists seem united in one respect. They seem determined to maintain their unthinking minions at equal proportions and stalemated. It is becoming so obvious that every act of the federal soap opera is scripted to this end.

32 posted on 02/08/2004 10:27:50 AM PST by eskimo
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To: William Creel
It is not ironic, our policies are forcing employers to out scource. Out source or go out of business, what would you do?
33 posted on 02/08/2004 10:28:38 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: CHUCKfromCAL
Their isn't enough Americans in our science and technology graduate schools.

There isn't enough Americans in our science and technology graduate schools because they are not allowed in. Take a look at any engineering or computer science department at any of the Cal State, UC or private university in this state and tell me if you hear the English language spoken. Call a UC extension program and just try to enroll in a high tech course when you don't have an H1-B or L-1 visa -- which they now ask for -- and then listen to the silence on the line before they tell you they're not equipped to process your application at this time.

The low paid manufacturing jobs are filled by illegal.

The payoff for having aborted our way to prosperity in the 70s and 80s. Those millions of aborted fetuses would now be the 20-somethings who would be manning the very jobs now taken by illegals.

Sadly, we may have to have another recession to get the message. I hope not.

Sadly, another recession will not matter to the multi-national mega-corporations whose market is world-wide. And there are plenty of bright young people out there who could do the high tech work and are not unwilling to get their hands dirty in the fields or on the assembly lines. They don't even get the chance anymore.

Carly Fiorina -- CEO of Hewlett Packard -- glibly announced to the world that Americans don't have any right to jobs, or anything else for that matter. And nobody paid any mind to it.

I just wonder what the dead Americans who fell to defend the country over the last two centuries would think about Ms. Fiorina's opinions about what rights Americans don't have.

34 posted on 02/08/2004 10:29:41 AM PST by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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To: sfwarrior
Remember the white collar jobs were supposed to replace those industrial factory jobs that were already closing due to outsourcing and no one cared about.

No leading politicians cared about. I've been worried (vocally and loudly) about this and the long range implications for many years. Still don't find all that many people who agree with me that it is a serious problem, even on FR.

35 posted on 02/08/2004 10:33:17 AM PST by templar
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: reluctantwarrior
I'm not suggesting Smoot Harley, which incidentally was passed after the Great Depression began. Secondly, how do you explain your free market mantra to the folks at fly over country? Let them know a good shoe shining job is just around the corner? Wake up.
37 posted on 02/08/2004 10:35:07 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: sfwarrior
Manufacturing jobs have long since vanished because companies have established factories overseas or have simply outsourced the production, contracting with existing overseas companies.

Why? because the unions have established a sense of entitlement and have held american companies hostage. While this is a crisis it's no mystery.

38 posted on 02/08/2004 10:35:49 AM PST by lawgirl (God to womankind: "Here's Cary Grant. Now don't say I never gave you anything.")
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To: Clintonfatigued
There is an even bigger problem than the unions. American corporate executives are the biggest problem. They are drowning themselves in perks, payoffs and bonuses. They spend so much money on themselves that even in good years, the pressure is on to cut costs. If the executives are really concerned about the stockholders, they would outsource their own jobs overseas.

I agree that the CEO'S have been costing their companies millions. I'm sure if their companies are located in another country that it will enable them to continue doing so without being hassled by our government. I wish our congresscritters would outsource their jobs to India as well. They are totally worthless, IMO.

.

39 posted on 02/08/2004 10:36:00 AM PST by NRA2BFree (http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/chainreaction/ValentinesDay.html)
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To: templar
It'll take time to make some FRers and Republicans to understand that conservativism and protectionism is not any oxymoron.
40 posted on 02/08/2004 10:37:13 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: sfwarrior; keri; international american; Kay Soze; jpsb; hershey; TomInNJ; dagnabbit; Pro-Bush; ...
"Some issues should transcend politics as usual. Both Republicans and Democrats should work closely together, in a nonadversarial way, for the defense of our nation after a foreign attack and for the protection of the America worker against the same."

In whose lifetime?

Jobs Americans Won't Do: Voodoo Economics from the White House.


41 posted on 02/08/2004 10:39:04 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S. borders - Controlled by CORRUPT Politicians and Slave-Labor Employers)
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To: William Creel
It's ironic that Ross Perot is one of the largest employers who is outsourcing.

You are confusing the general rules with the individual situations. If your remove tariffs (free trade) the companies and consumers who try to make patriotic choices are severly penalized.

If you are a producer who wants to hire Americans and pay American taxes you might be competing with foreign imports which are cheaper than your costs. If you are a consumer your choice might be between deprivation or buying Chinese made goods. If you are a worker you might be forced to go deeper into debt and ask for government assistance in order to "compete" with Third World labor.

The original rules and equal playing field should be restored and this is what Mr. Perot wanted.

42 posted on 02/08/2004 10:41:25 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: A. Pole
A. Pole
Bingo. You've said is succintly. Now if only other freepers and conservatives would get it.
44 posted on 02/08/2004 10:42:59 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: sfwarrior; reluctantwarrior
"Secondly, how do you explain your free market mantra to the folks at fly over country? Let them know a good shoe shining job is just around the corner?"

Explanations are in order . .

American Workers

High Immigration Harms Many American Workers

Federal policies of high immigration interfere with market forces that otherwise would cause corporations and other employers to find ways to maximize American wages and working conditions while also maximizing productivity.

The result has been a decades-long wage depression in many occupations and even in some professions.

America has become less of a middle-class nation because of the quadrupling of immigration since 1965. And it has become more of a society of wide economic disparities.

Virtually all studies of this phenomenon have concluded that the greatest harm is to those American workers who already are the most vulnerable: those without high school degrees, those with lower intrinsic intelligence, those with fewer skills. The harm also is disproportionately felt by native-born minorities, especially Hispanics and Blacks, and by recent immigrants.

For these reasons, the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, chaired by the late Barbara Jordan, concluded that present immigration numbers are a source of economic injustice in this country. The Commission recommended lowering immigration numbers significantly.

"Since 1970, immigration has increased the number of unskilled job applicants faster than the number of skilled job applicants. First-year economics predicts that increasing the relative number of unskilled workers will depress their wages, because employers will not need to raise wages to attract applicants for unskilled jobs. Nonetheless, those who favor an expansive immigration policy often deny that the increase in the number of unskilled job applicants depresses wages for unskilled work, arguing that unskilled immigrants take jobs that natives do not want. This is sometimes true. But we still have to ask why natives do not want these jobs. The reason is not that natives reject demeaning or dangerous work. Almost every job that immigrants do in Los Angeles or New York is done by natives in Detroit and Philadelphia. When natives turn down such jobs in New York or Los Angeles, the reason is that by local standards the wages are abysmal. Far from proving that immigrants have no impact on natives, the fact that American-born workers sometimes reject jobs that immigrants accept reinforces the claim that immigration has depressed wages for unskilled work."

High Immigration Harms Many American Workers and Produces Wage Depression
 

Mexican migrant workers oppose Bush immigration proposal.


45 posted on 02/08/2004 10:44:09 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S. borders - Controlled by CORRUPT Politicians and Slave-Labor Employers)
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To: Peach
This is an ever-expanding economy, I don't care whether we're in a down cycle or not we're always expanding.

Yeah, sure. Tell it to the Argentinians. Almost every great power in the past has fallen because of such over-confidence/hubris/hutzpah. Good example was XVIc Spain.

46 posted on 02/08/2004 10:45:32 AM PST by A. Pole (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain , the hand of free market must be invisible)
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To: sfwarrior
This article is quite a find. Considering it is from SF, it is surprising to find it provides more fact than opinion. The effect of the income tax has been to increase direct employment in the public sector and by other spending make many other jobs dependent on public spending. This means we are becoming a socialist nation. We are getting to the point where one of the main functions of government will be to provide employment for workers of today and retirement benefits for former employees. I am constantly amazed that business in the private sector has become more productive, and we have many government agencies which are operating as they did when their agencies were created. Enron would be an accounting model of fiscal responsibility compared to the USDA which has literally billions unaccounted for. If only we could keep the manufacturing jobs here and ship the government bureacratic jobs abroad.
47 posted on 02/08/2004 10:46:25 AM PST by Biblebelter
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To: lawgirl
Tell that to the furniture makers in mid Atlantic states. The unions are gone, got it? There are just a few pockets of union strong holds left, mostly in the North East. But yall keep sending all the damn jobs overseas and union will make a comeback big time. I can easily see unemployed American going to the harbor and trashing cheap imports at the dock. Any day I expect the un and under emplyed to do just that.
48 posted on 02/08/2004 10:46:55 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: Happy2BMe
Nice try but no banana. Most freepers would agree with you that the rate of immigration is far too excessive. But you ignored answerin the main question posed by the original column, how does an American worker making between $25-$40 an hour, at a factory or "knowledge" job, compete with those making 10-20 cents an hour.

Let everyone on this thread hear your answer simply and clearly. Go. Your turn...
49 posted on 02/08/2004 10:48:02 AM PST by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: NRA2BFree
American's have been sounding the alarm bell but NO ONE IS LISTENING. This very well could cost President Bush the election. I've had enough of these CFR, Globalist traitors. America is in a race to the bottom, and they could care less! By the time they realize what they have done to America, it will be too late. We are at the mercy of the traitors in our own government.

What you need to realize is they they DO hear you...But, there agenda is not our agenda...Surely you remember George Sr, "Read my lips-New World Order"...We left the American Order...We are now in the NEW World Order...We saw this coming at least 20 years ago but we ignored it...Just as we are still trying to ignore it...

Ross Perot told us...Pat Buchanan told us...And we trashed them...They got trashed so badly that no one else is willng to step up to the plate...So if you thought the New World Order was a good thing, you may as well just set back and enjoy it, if you can...

50 posted on 02/08/2004 10:48:34 AM PST by Iscool
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