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A Foolproof Tax Plan
Mens News Daily ^ | February 9, 2004 | Selwyn Duke

Posted on 02/10/2004 10:06:34 AM PST by ancient_geezer

http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/c-e/duke/2004/duke020904.htm

A Foolproof Tax Plan
February 9, 2004
by Selwyn Duke

Former Chief Justice John Marshall once said, “The power to tax is the power to destroy.”  And boy, was he right.  Confiscate enough of people’s wealth and you’ve turned them into veritable serfs toiling dawn till dusk just to keep their heads above water.  We’re not yet serfs in this society, but we’re getting closer all the time.  As of now, the government takes 30-60% of our income and this translates into working until May of every year for Uncle Sam – and our hours are getting longer.  You see, every year the government grows, and what does this mean?  It means it creates new programs and programs require money to administer.  It means that every year it creates new laws, regulations and mandates, and the bureaucracies which are necessary to enforce them require money to operate.  But not just money – LOTS of money.  Money is the lifeblood of government; it is what keeps the heart of the big government beast beating, and this growing boy needs lots of transfusions.

Distressing as it is that this government vampire is sucking us dry through an open wound, more distressing still is the salt that is thrown into it.  What is this?  It’s the fact that after forcibly extracting an exorbitant amount of our resources from us, the government then uses our own money to tyrannize us.  After all, the laws, regulations and mandates that our booty is used to enforce take away our freedoms.  Statist Karl Marx said, “When we hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope.”  I’d say that the spirit of Marx lives on in the statists in Washington and they are hanging us, and we’ve given them the rope.

Unfortunately, the problem can only get worse because the tax system we now have is fatally flawed, as it ensures constant movement towards higher taxes and bigger government.  But there is a way to put this government beast on a diet and get him in shape, and then put him in the cage that used to be his home.  The solution is a simple, three-pronged tax plan that would strike fear into the hearts of the Washington pickpockets, and here it is.

1. Create a law stating that there must be national referenda on ALL tax increases.

What this means is that every time a politician proposed a tax increase, it would have to go up for a vote of the people.  A radical idea, I know, but it would actually have to be passed by a majority of those whose money would be taken before it could go into effect.  I would prefer to make a 2/3rds majority the necessary margin, but if the country wouldn’t find this idea palatable I’d settle for a simple majority.  We could decide this as a nation.  What this would do, though, is truly put power back in the hands of the people.

And that’s what it’s all about.  After all, who should have control over OUR money?  Not some politician who’s willing to sell his soul and use a half a billion dollars of our money to buy another 10,000 votes.  Not some special interest lobbying group that can make limp-wristed politicians’ knees shake and cause them to funnel a billion of our dollars to its pet cause.  We should.  It’s the fruits of OUR labors and before one thin dime of it is taken, OUR permission should have to be granted.          

2. Create a law stating that there may only be ONE form of federal taxation.

This measure would serve to achieve a very important goal, which is the elimination of the multitude of hidden takes that now exist.  There are taxes on virtually everything: plane tickets, phone bills, gasoline, and a long list of others that almost no one is even aware of.  Politicians love these hidden taxes.  This is because raising taxes isn’t popular and Mr. Sneaky Politician knows that if people are aware of his raising of them, he might have to incur the wrath of the voter at election time.  So you see, hidden taxes allow these weasels to raise taxes with impunity; the action never makes it onto the radar screen, so the offending politicians’ careers won’t be shot down.

The first measure [national referenda] alone would put an end to this skullduggery, because if politicians wanted to attempt to raise taxes they would have to do it in the light of day.  The voters would be aware of it, and then they could make informed decisions in the voting booth and hold shameless politicians accountable for their actions.  However, we should simply dispense with these phantom taxes altogether because they ensure that most people won’t be fully aware of how great a tax burden they’re carrying.  If we eliminated hidden taxes, the true degree of taxation would be starkly apparent to everyone.

 3. Make that one form of taxation a national sales tax.

Think about it: if you approached someone on the street and asked him how much he earned per year, what would the probable response be?  Most of us know: he would refuse to answer and state that it was personal information – he would say in essence “none of your business.”  Yet, when people operating within the context of the government agency called the IRS ask us the very same question, we obediently provide that information and much, much more.  We not only tell them how much we make but also how we make it, what we spent much of it on, and whatever other details our feudal lords require us to divulge.  The truth is that we should tell those in government the same thing we’d be told on the street: none of your business – because it isn’t their business.  The income tax as it is now constituted is coercively intrusive and therefore is an affront to the principles of freedom.

Another positive benefit of eliminating the income tax is that the withholding tax would also become a thing of the past.  Established in 1943 to help finance WW II [it ended, didn’t it?], this tax serves a similar purpose to that of hidden taxes, in that it diminishes people’s awareness of and resistance to taxation.  Politicians know this; they know that this incremental, stealthy removal of resources changes people’s perspective because they never have possession of this withheld money – they never see it.  It’s “out of sight out of mind.”  Consequently, not only don’t most people protest this excessive confiscation of their wealth, but many are actually happy when they get their refund checks from this robber baron government.  But, you can rest assured, if Americans instead had to write the government a large, one lump sum check on April 15th, their tune would change markedly.  A little sidenote here: the income tax is also contrary to the original intent of the founders of this nation and was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court at the end of the 19th century.  Only the 16th Amendment, ratified in 1913, legalized this un-American practice and made it a fixture in the American landscape.

Now, contrast a national sales tax model with the sad state of affairs outlined above.  You wouldn’t have any complicated tax forms to fill out, nor would you have to negotiate the IRS’ labyrinthine trove of rules.  You wouldn’t have to spend money on tax preparers, keep detailed books for your business, or account for every thin dime you make.  And it would give you greater control over your finances because Uncle Sam wouldn’t see one penny of your income until YOU decided to spend it.  Lastly, a national sales tax would be naturally progressive because wealthier people who buy bigger ticket items would pay more in taxes just as a matter of course .   

Politicians wouldn’t like this plan because it robs them of power and control over our lives.  But we should have this power and control because we should be free people – not subjects.  It’s time to say “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore,” and demand that this plan become part of the fabric of our government.  We should remember that money is not just paper - it represents resources.  The ability to feed and clothe our families, to obtain health care, to get a good education and a million other things – it represents the worldly dreams and aspirations of ourselves and our children.  And yes, the power to tax IS the power to destroy, and the power to tax highly is the power to destroy mightily.  This is why the people must control this power – not the political elitists.  It’s time to cut the blood supply and slay this big government dragon and truly make ours, as Lincoln said, “A government of the people, by the people, and for the people.”

Selwyn Duke



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Government
KEYWORDS: axixofevil; taxes; taxreform
Stir the pot abit :O)
1 posted on 02/10/2004 10:06:35 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: *Taxreform; Taxman; Principled; Bigun; EternalVigilance; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; Poohbah; CliffC; ...
Taxreform bumplist

Just in case yah need sump'n to distract you.

2 posted on 02/10/2004 10:08:51 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
I'm working for a candidate for Congress who fully endorses this positive, forward-looking, freedom-restoring measure.

His name is Dr. Bill Lester, of Brownwood, Texas.

He's running in TX11. The primary exactly one month from today will decide it, because this new open seat is almost 75% Republican.

You can check him out here:


http://www.lester2004.com

3 posted on 02/10/2004 10:16:31 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: ancient_geezer
If Bill wins, those of you who believe in fundamental tax reform will have a champion for this cause on the Hill; not a place-holder or a defender of the status quo.

And if we win, you'll get a bonus. You'll also get me on the Hill as his chief-of-staff!

;-)

I think you all know how hard I will fight for this if I am afforded that opportunity. I have contacts all over the country, so the work I do in DC will be backed up by continued educational efforts and grassroots organizational pressure on the reluctant back in their districts.

If anyone wants to help us at this very critical stage, FReepmail me. The early voting starts two weeks from today, so time is now of the essence.

EV
4 posted on 02/10/2004 10:26:21 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance
Running as well are:

Herman Cain for United States Senate, state of Georgia 2004 and

Vernon Robinson running for North Carolina's 5th Congressional District

That have announced their support for replacing the federal income tax with a national retail sales tax.

Get enough of these folks and folks like them elected & re-elected. And the NRST will be in our future.

5 posted on 02/10/2004 10:27:44 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
You know; I think i could grow to LIKE Mr. Duke quite a lot!

He is ON TARGET with this article for sure!

6 posted on 02/10/2004 10:27:44 AM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: Bigun
Now why would anyone figure you would like this article? ;O)
7 posted on 02/10/2004 10:28:49 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
So many people complain about government spending... well, the only way to really stop it is for people to understand exactly how much all these "wonderful" government programs cost them directly. An NRST would do that admirably.
8 posted on 02/10/2004 10:28:58 AM PST by kevkrom (YEEEEEAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH! <splat> -- a prairie dog coming off a speed high)
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To: ancient_geezer
You bet!

Both great men who each have my full endorsement.

Had the privelege of discussing this issue with Mr. Robinson at CPAC.

He gets it.

And Herman Cain is an eloquent champion for the cause, almost without peer.

His presence in the U.S. Senate will be a dream come true!
9 posted on 02/10/2004 10:32:00 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: kevkrom
Was that a hint?

23%........... Effective total federal tax rate with respect to consumption expenditure

14.91% ..... rate if Social Security and Medicare were eliminated
14% .......... rate if Nat'l Endowment for the Arts were eliminated
11.9%........ rate if Dept. of Education were eliminated
10% .......... rate if welfare were eliminated
9.8%.......... rate if foreign aid were eliminated
etc.

So lets look at what the maximum it would take to fund those functions clearly authorized under Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, in current dollars:

http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html#Spending

Institute an across the board, Flat rate, single stage National Retail Sales Tax, which taxes all imports and domestic products with the same rate.

Replacing present all current federal tax law with a retail sales tax would be 23% on new goods and services paid and receipted at the retail register. No hidden tax, no exceptions, exemptions everyone participates.

Such a tax acts in a natural manner to encourage the elimination of excess government functions through visibility of burden among all constituencies of the electorate.

The total federal government budget would move from $2,000 billions towards something less than $580 billions calculated.

The across the board federal tax rate on new goods and services would decline towards less than 6.7%.

As tax rate on sales decreases the economic burden on retail items, the sales volumes and growth in the economy would be tremendous allowing even further reductions in tax rates below that less than 6.7% theoretic level.

That is what I perceive as the ultimate achievements possible under a National Retail Sales Tax structured in the manner of the revenue bill H.R.25. Simple common sense applied to the principal of TANSTAFFEL,( no free lunch, everyone participates in paying there way in proportion to the benefit the extract from their consumption.) encourages the natural change in attitudes required of the electorate as regards the burden of government largess in their lives.

Thomas Hobbes from Leviathan

Hmmmmmm....... It's do able, with time and effort, once the blinders are removed from the electorate.

10 posted on 02/10/2004 10:32:02 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
Merge the two competing ideas for the national sales tax and the national VAT tax. Tax once at retail and once at importation. No tax on exports. No exemption for non-profits, such as churches, foundations, etc. Most other trading partners are disadvantaging US companies in this manner. Our policies should be reciprocal.
11 posted on 02/10/2004 10:33:54 AM PST by lchoro
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To: ancient_geezer
Now why would anyone figure you would like this article?

Dunno! Perhaps because it make PERFECT sense maybe! ;>)

12 posted on 02/10/2004 10:35:45 AM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: ancient_geezer
Read my tagline.
13 posted on 02/10/2004 10:37:05 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: lchoro
No.

The VAT is hidden, and insidious.

Bad idea.

One tax, at the retail level, that is totally visible.

And under the FairTax, the burden of regulation will be utterly removed from nonprofits, and all of the destructive and liberty-robbing game-playing will come to its rightful end.

14 posted on 02/10/2004 10:41:40 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: lchoro
By the way, under the FairTax, the burden is going to come off our exports; making our products and services the most competitive in the world.

Conversely, foreign-made goods are finally going to have to pay to play in the largest economy in the world. Their products will be taxed at the point-of-sale.

In other words, the world is going to be turned upside down in our favor...or perhaps I should say 'rightside-up'.
15 posted on 02/10/2004 10:45:39 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: lchoro

Merge the two competing ideas for the national sales tax and the national VAT tax.

A VAT is the antithesis of a Retail Sales Tax, one justification of having a retail tax is to assure visibility, which a VAT tends to prevent.

A VAT is not a great idea, why would you want to tax the same things twice? and why hide the taxes that consumers ultimately pay by embedding them in retail prices?

How can anyone exercise that "Eternal Vigilance" necessary to keep government in check. That is part of the problem with income taxes + business taxes that we have. Much of the tax burden is hidden from view and is why:

70% of the voting public clamors for more from government expecting someone else to foot the bill and why over 60% of the voters PERCEIVE no problem with the taxrates and vote for polidiots that promise to bring home the most bacon

16 posted on 02/10/2004 10:47:54 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
Any real attempt at "reform" of the tax system will meet with failure. Why? Because the damn tyrants (of both main parties) like it just the way it is: they skim off more and more money every year using hidden techniques. Very little of it is out in the open. The current income tax structure would be untenable IF the working public had to pony up a check every April instead of having the trillions merely confiscated from every paycheck.

The problem with a national sales tax is that some of us who have been working for over 3 decades have managed to save in POST tax savings accounts; upon retirement when we want to use some of that ALREADY TAXED MONEY we would have to pay another tax on top of the first one. I do not support a national sales tax. A single rate flat income tax would be preferable. However, NO tax would be better still.

I propose that we limit the terms of the legislatures; make the bastards get a real job for six months out of the year. Less legislative time, less expense. Its as simple as that.

There is, in the end, only one real way to reverse the trend of ever-growing government power and authority: and I am afraid that it is not a very pleasent one. Half-hearted attempts to get the very criminals in government who are stealing the lifeblood of the nation to change is folly. They like the power and they are addicted to the money. On top of that, we have all been co-opted into the system because of our "contributions" to Social Security and Medicare. And there is a growing cadre of those who are total wards of the state and who have become so because of 60 years of the growing Welfare State. An end to welfare? Fat chance.

17 posted on 02/10/2004 10:58:28 AM PST by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: lchoro

No tax on exports.

A Retail Sales Tax does not tax exports (unlike the income/payroll tax scheme of today that embedds taxes into the pricing of goods and services).

No exemption for non-profits, such as churches, foundations, etc.

All tax exemption status does is make contributions declarible as deductions in computing income and provide a hook to control such entities.

No income to compute, no deductions under a retail sales tax. No hook for control.

Most other trading partners are disadvantaging US companies in this manner.

True,

Our policies should be reciprocal.

Doesn't mean they should be identical, just border adjustable.

Exports are not a retail item, they are business activities not taxed under a "retail" sales tax.

Under a retail sales tax, no crediting for a VAT is required, the border adjustment is automatic by virtue of never having taxed an export at any production level in the first place.

OTOH, all consumer goods(which includes the any import material that went into them) are automatically hit with a retail sales tax when sold. Thus all imports are hit with the same tax rate as domestic goods, which is just the opposite of today's system.

There is neither need nor desirability for instituting a VAT. A VAT serves only to purposes to hide tax burdens, & collect the tax from citizens out of their control. Neither purpose is appropriate to a free nation.

The function of consumption taxes should include that option of the electorate to avoid them are excessive, a VAT defeats that potential:

 

Alexander Hamilton, the first Secretary of the Treasury, said it best in Federalist Papers #21 when he stated:

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption
that they contain in their own nature a security against excess.

They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without
defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.

When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty
that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four."

If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection
is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when
they are confined within proper and moderate bounds.

This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the
citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of
the power of imposing them
.

Impositions of this kind usually fall under the denomination of indirect
taxes,
and must for a long time constitute the chief part of the revenue
raised in this country.
" (Emphasis added).

A broadbased VAT defeats this characteristic of consumption taxes as veiwed by the founders of the Constitution. A VAT is indistinguishable from a corporate income tax in operation. Income taxes are what we are trying to get rid of.

18 posted on 02/10/2004 11:09:15 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
Not trying to be a snot, but where do you see "Veteran's Services" as a constitutional obligation of the government? Slipping stuff like that into your argument devalues it.
19 posted on 02/10/2004 11:13:55 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: ancient_geezer
You're so right.

Hidden taxation is the favorite playground of statist politicians.

They get to have their cake and never pay for it, politically speaking.

When taxation is hidden, they are afforded endless opportunities to play one set of voters off against another in a never-ending game of Divide and Conquer.

Under the FairTax, suddenly the interests of every single voter in America would coincide. The only real tax debate left would be over the level of the rate. In other words, all political pressure on tax levels would be downward, forced in that direction by a united citizenry.

And the largest political and economic protection racket ever devised by man, the Federal Income Tax, would be on the dustheap of history, along with all the other manifestations of communist dogma.
20 posted on 02/10/2004 11:21:08 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: ancient_geezer
Great idea but it only addresses 1/2 of the equation.

Yes, you need to control taxation
But control on spending is required as well.
21 posted on 02/10/2004 11:29:15 AM PST by taxcontrol (People are entitled to their opinion - no matter how wrong it is.)
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To: 45Auto

Any real attempt at "reform" of the tax system will meet with failure. Why? Because the damn tyrants (of both main parties) like it just the way it is: they skim off more and more money every year using hidden techniques. Very little of it is out in the open. The current income tax structure would be untenable IF the working public had to pony up a check every April instead of having the trillions merely confiscated from every paycheck.

In which case, you don't need to worry about a National Retail Sales tax will you.

The problem with a national sales tax is that some of us who have been working for over 3 decades have managed to save in POST tax savings accounts; upon retirement when we want to use some of that ALREADY TAXED MONEY we would have to pay another tax on top of the first one. I do not support a national sales tax. A single rate flat income tax would be preferable.

You get hit with the same tax regardless: All income and payroll taxes are embedded in the price of goods and services now. You pay at both ends as it is. All your "POST" tax savings accounts have assure is that when you spend it a business is going to turn around and remit the tax extracted from the higher prices that it is embedded in.

DO YOU PAY YOUR INCOME TAX
AT THE SUPERMARKET?

by D. Sherman Cox J.D. L.L.M. Taxation

Under the National Retail Sales Tax proposed, shelf prices can be expected to fall approximately 20-25%, the total payment for goods and services after the NRST will be approximately what you pay now for consumption.

Secondly, what prevents you from just spending earnings from your investments? That under the current system such earnings are still taxed both as income and when you spend it. Under the NRST earnings are only taxed when spent.

However, NO tax would be better still.

ROTFLMAO, and you figure "Any real attempt at "reform" of the tax system will meet with failure."?

Finally, why do you wish to continue justifying both your expenditures and your income to government? For that is what you are bound to under any income/payroll tax system Flat round or otherwise.

The NRST has much more going for it than just dollars on taxes. How much is freedom from government intrusion into your family and private affairs worth to you and your decendants.

22 posted on 02/10/2004 11:30:05 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: taxcontrol
IMO, implementation of the NRST is the path to take to get to where spending becomes THE political issue.

Until the hidden aspect of taxation is removed, folks just aren't going to realize the bite that excessive and extraconstitutional spending is taking out of their prosperity.

Help us take care of 'A', and I guarantee you that you will find us working on 'B' just as heartily.
23 posted on 02/10/2004 11:34:32 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: 45Auto
Cynicism has overtaken you, my friend.

Don't give up yet.

Our institutions have been severely undermined, yes...but they are still standing.

There is still time to shore them up.

But if we let cynicism take us, that work will not be done, and all hope will have been lost.
24 posted on 02/10/2004 11:39:34 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Mr. Bird

but where do you see "Veteran's Services" as a constitutional obligation of the government?

You don't see compensation to our Veterans for injuries inflicted by wars that we send them to as an obligation of us all?

Sorry I disagree very much on that one.

Veteran's Services is least as much a constitutional obligation as providing sufficient compensation in other areas of services due. It is a moral debt owed to those called up and injured in the service of our nation.

Slipping stuff like that into your argument devalues it.

Get your leg blown off in a war defending this nation, before you talk about "devalue" to me.

When this nation sends its men to war (A constitutional authority) it is responsible for the damage done to those men it has sent.

25 posted on 02/10/2004 11:39:47 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: taxcontrol

Yes, you need to control taxation

In a revenue bill, which a tax law is enacted.

But control on spending is required as well.

Appropriations bills are where spending is addressed

The two are not mutually exclusive, they are however on opposite sides of the coin and can only be addressed separately. The tax side, when visible, gives impetus and reason to all for implementing spending control which ultimately can only come from the electorate:

Milton Friedman as quoted by Northwest Florida Daily News, 10-16-2000:

"If non-taxpayers become a majority in society, what would restrain them from voting for ever higher taxes on others?"

Walter Williams, World Net Daily, 10-25-2000

So many Americans paying little or no federal taxes makes for a natural spending constituency. It's like me in the restaurant: What do I care about extravagance if you're footing the bill?

The key is to raise visibility of the real tax burden on the electorate and assure all participate proportionatley in it. Self intrest will encourage the rest.

We must . . . End Tax Slavery Now; Nov '97
by Jarret B. Wollstein

HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY PAY?

     According to the Tax Foundation, in 1994 the average American paid 22.4% of his or her income in federal taxes, plus 11.8% in state and local taxes - 34.2% total.

     But that's just the beginning! Dr. James Payne of the University of California found that in addition to direct taxes we also pay huge, hidden taxes including:

     For every $1 we pay in direct taxes, we spend an additional $0.65 in compliance costs. And even that figure doesn't include the cost of import duties, license fees and other government regulations. For a typical U.S. family, the real cost of taxes and regulations is at least:

Federal taxes              22.4% of income
State & local taxes      11.8%
Compliance costs        22.2%
Regulatory costs         12.7%

70.1% of your income is now consumed by government


26 posted on 02/10/2004 11:49:12 AM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
An interesting note:

50% of the tax burden you just described so well is completely hidden in compliance and regulatory costs.

But the 50% that is seemingly visible isn't even truly visible.

It is taken in the form of withholding, so the taxpayer never even feels those greenbacks in his hand--it is taken at the wellspring before we ever get a drink.


I remember quite awhile ago reading the writings of the New Deal socialists who were responsible for implementing wage withholding. They made it clear (their honesty about it was almost shocking) that:

A) their plan wasn't about revenue collection, it was about social engineering: the power to tax is the power to discourage certain activities while encouraging others.

and...

B) They knew that the power they were procuring for themselves and all future statists was the power intrinsic to hidden taxation.
27 posted on 02/10/2004 12:03:11 PM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: ancient_geezer
I was trying to point out a very large flaw in your premise: if you wish to stake your argument on constitutional bedrock, don't go emanating into the penumbra on me.

You and I actually agree on the moral obligation of the state to those who make sacrifices on her behalf. But it's not in the constitution. So your very good points about restricting government to its constitutionally designated responsibilities get discredited because you decided to make veteran's issues something it's not.

Why not just say, I believe the government should do the constitutionally authorized X, Y, and Z, and I think they should also spend money on M because it's the right thing to do, and the founders missed it?

Just because constitutional "interpretation" can work in our favor does not make it right.

28 posted on 02/10/2004 12:19:16 PM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: ancient_geezer
"Confiscate enough of people’s wealth and you’ve turned them into veritable serfs toiling dawn till dusk just to keep their heads above water."

Yea and people who fight the system are just tax cheats right?

Here's a couple of good quotes for your collection....“I never could believe that providence had sent a few men into the world ready, booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready, saddled and bridled to be ridden" - Richard Rumbold, patriot soldier at the gallows

"We're confiscating property now....That's socialism. It's written into the Communist Manifesto. Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what's happening to him." - T. Coleman Andrews, May 25, 1956, Commissioner of the IRS

29 posted on 02/10/2004 12:55:38 PM PST by patriot_wes
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To: Mr. Bird

Why not just say, I believe the government should do the constitutionally authorized X, Y, and Z, and I think they should also spend money on M because it's the right thing to do, and the founders missed it?

Because the founders didn't miss it.

They laid out the enumerated authorities to

tax, "to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence"

"To raise and support Armies" on a two year appropriations basis

"To provide and maintain a Navy;"

"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers"

You may not like the inclusion of responsibilities of government for veterans included as constitutional, but that obligation arises out of the same responsibilities it is bound by under exercise of its authoriteis "to lay & collect taxes to ... provide for the common defence", "to provide and maintain a navy" , and to "raise and support armies" on a 2 year appropriations basis.

Once government has exercised one of it's enumerated authorities, it becomes responsible for the results of that exercise. Any other way to view such exercise would nullify any pretense of limited constitutional government.

Responsibility is a co-commitment with Authority. Without responsibility, Authority becomes arbitrary and dictatorial as opposed to a government of limited powers.

When, as a nation we place men at risk through governement's exercise of enumerated authorities, it of necessity, becomes responsible for the men it places at risk in its service.

You cannot divorce responsibility incurred by government exercise of authority without violation of the guarantees of the Constitution that limit it's exercise of power.

Sorry, I get down off my soapbox now ;O)

30 posted on 02/10/2004 1:05:38 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: patriot_wes

Yea and people who fight the system are just tax cheats right?

Not necessarily, but they are often dupes of con-men who lead others into deep legal trouble using invalid and deliberatly misleading arguments.

I recommend repeal of the income and payroll tax statutes instead of playing moth to Congress Critter's candle, the IRS.

A couple of quotes for your collection:

[Montesquieu wrote in Spirit of the Laws, XIII,c.14:]

Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratifying Convention June 12, 1788:

Constitution for the United States of America:

 

United States v. Sloan, 939 F.2d 499 (7th Cir. 1991)
Argued that there is no law imposing a tax on income, that state citizens are exempt from income tax.

KANNE, Circuit Judge.

  • Like moths to a flame, some people find themselves irresistibly drawn to the tax protestor movement's illusory claim that there is no legal requirement to pay federal income tax. And, like the moths, these people sometimes get burned. Lorin G. Sloan believed these claims and because he acted upon them now faces four months in a federal prison; there can be little doubt that he has been burned.
  • The real tragedy of this case is the unconscionable waste of Mr. Sloan's time, resources, and emotion in continuing to pursue these wholly defective and unsuccessful arguments about the validity of the income tax laws of the United States. Despite our rejection of Mr. Sloan's legal analysis of the tax laws, we are not unmindful of the sincerity of his beliefs. On the other hand, we are less sure of the sincerity of the professional tax protestors who promote their views in literature and meetings to persons like Mr. Sloan, yet are unlikely ever to face the type of penalties incurred by him. It may be that our decision will not alter Mr. Sloan's views regarding the tax laws of this country, for he has stated that if we affirm his conviction without applying the law as he understands it, our decision will be "a sham to which I WILL NOT SUBMIT." It may also be that serving his sentence in prison will not alter Mr. Sloan's view. We hope this pessimistic assessment is incorrect.
  • We AFFIRM the conviction of Lorin G. Sloan on all counts.

31 posted on 02/10/2004 1:17:38 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: EternalVigilance
I don't think its totally cynicism; just hard reality. The current financial mess in California is instructive. It is a microcosm of what's going to happen on a national scale sometime down the road if things are not changed dramatically. Over the last two decades the Cal legislature along with several of its governors (both parties) placed numerous ballot initiatives before the voters in an attempt to circumvent the Gann Initiative and Prop 13, both of which amended the Cal Constitution in the vain attempt to control spending/taxation. While no tax reform was included, spending caps were put in place based on a number of concepts.

Over the ensuing decades, the stupid voters of California most of whom do not understand that bond sales are taxation, merrily approved and voted to amend the Cal Constitution to the tune of 100 billion dollars or more of non-discretionary spending for a variety of social/educational needs. Now, the new Governator is discovering that there is very little wiggle room in cutting this mandatory spending. The only way to do it is to amend the Cal Constitution again. And the damn Marixist-inspired legislature will see to it that that cannot be accomplished without (figurative) bloodletting. Now magnify this a thousand fold and view it down the road about 10 years on. That is where the Federal government is going. And not one political candidate in a thousand has any intention of changing that. In my opinion it will take more than the ballot box to do it.

32 posted on 02/10/2004 1:26:28 PM PST by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: ancient_geezer
Your points are very well taken; ours is a difference of degree only. I believe that the proper and legitimate treatment of our veterans falls under constitutional purview as a compact between the voluntary soldier and the government. In other words, part of being able to raise an army (or navy) is providing adequate guarantees that such service will be rewarded in some fashion.

Where I get a little fuzzy is when we lump "veteran's issues" into some sort of catch-all federal obligation. Better to be quite specific in our discussion of which issues are obligations, and to what extent.

33 posted on 02/10/2004 1:44:49 PM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: 45Auto
I don't disagree with your analysis of the situation.

I simply believe that our responsibility is to do all in our power to preserve the forms handed down to us and reform them before we have to come to that.

I have no doubt you agree.

Ballots beat bullets any old day.
34 posted on 02/10/2004 1:56:52 PM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Mr. Bird

Where I get a little fuzzy is when we lump "veteran's issues" into some sort of catch-all federal obligation. Better to be quite specific in our discussion of which issues are obligations, and to what extent.

I see the difference as Veteran's "Services", being the line item of the federal budget, which deals with those established laws governing medical and pension programs enacted and dependant on the consequences of military service to the nation. It is that sense that I used it in the calculation.

Veteran's "issues" as a whole are little more than another set of political footballs that every group comes up with to stir the political pot to see what falls out. 1st amendment covers them though government action may or may not be appropriate for any particular issue.

35 posted on 02/10/2004 2:23:23 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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To: ancient_geezer
Attaboy! A.G.!!
36 posted on 02/10/2004 3:06:58 PM PST by n-tres-ted
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To: patriot_wes
As regards your FRmail to me:

This is your standard for the Courts. Meet it and you might have a chance, otherwise expect to crash & burn before any thing changes in law concerning the income tax.

Much easier, and more certain, to seek legislative repeal than ever see a winner in the courts.

MCCRAY v. U S, 195 U.S. 27 (1904)


37 posted on 02/10/2004 7:25:54 PM PST by ancient_geezer (Equality, the French disease: Everyone is equal beneath a guillotine.)
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