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Kerry's Vietnam service now fair game
www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Jack Kelly

Posted on 02/11/2004 9:45:25 AM PST by nelsonted1

Kerry's Vietnam service now fair game

Jack Kelly

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | I would not have contemplated writing anything even mildly critical of John Kerry's Vietnam service, were he not making it the centerpiece of his campaign, and were not he impugning President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard. But as lawyers say before cross examination: "if the witness opens the door..."

Kerry joined the Navy after graduation from Yale in 1966, became an officer, and volunteered for Vietnam. After service on a destroyer, Kerry volunteered again to be a swift boat commander. This was courageous and commendable. Service on the swift boats, which patrolled the Mekong river, was about the only way a sailor who wasn't an aviator or a SEAL could get shot.

Kerry served on swift boats for about four months. During that time, he was awarded the Bronze Star (the lowest decoration for heroism in combat) and the Silver Star (the next higher decoration for valor) and three Purple Hearts for wounds sustained in battle. These latter decorations — like my title of "nationally syndicated columnist" — sound more impressive than they are. All three wounds were minor cuts from shrapnel, which, according to Kerry, caused him to miss a grand total of 2 days of duty.

For soldiers and Marines, especially of the enlisted variety, a Silver Star is a big deal. You've got to do something profound to get one. But the rules were different for officers, especially for naval officers.

This is the action on Feb. 28, 1969, for which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star: A Viet Cong fired a B-40 rocket at Kerry's boat, Patrol Craft Fast-94. Tom Belodeau, manning the twin 50-caliber machine guns at the rear of the boat, opened fire on the VC, wounding him. The VC fled behind a hooch. Kerry ordered PCF-94 to shore, leaped out of the boat, pursued the VC, and finished him off.

I can envision grizzled infantrymen shaking their heads. "He got the Silver Star for that?"

Kerry had an advantage most servicemen do not. Medal recommendations have to be made by the commanding officer of the unit in which the heroism took place. Kerry was the commander of PCF-94. Presumably, Kerry's medal recommendation was made by the commander of the squadron to which PCF-94 belonged. But Kerry's commander wasn't there. The evidence he had of the heroism of Lt (jg) John F. Kerry came chiefly from the after action report of Lt. (jg) John F. Kerry.

Shortly after being awarded the Silver Star, Kerry took advantage of a provision in Navy regulations that permits a sailor who has been wounded three times to obtain early release from his combat tour. For Kerry — since his wounds were so minor — this was taking advantage of a technicality. There is nothing wrong with this. Many officers similarly situated would have done the same. But it wasn't heroic.

To recap: Kerry was a double volunteer. As a swift boat commander, he was brave and able. But I am unaware of any soldier or Marine who was awarded a decoration of any kind — much less the Silver Star — just for killing a wounded man who was running away.

Though it is being hyped far beyond what it warrants, Kerry's Vietnam service was honorable. What is not honorable is the way Kerry — in testimony before Congress in April, 1971 — falsely accused his fellow Viet vets of routinely committing grisly war crimes. Nor does it speak well of Kerry that in several demonstrations he marched under the flag of the Viet Cong. It is one thing to oppose the war in Vietnam. It is another to cheer for the enemy.

In the senate, Kerry has a reputation for trying to have things both ways. Kerry exhibited this tendency early on at an antiwar protest in which he flung medals over a fence at the White House — but the medals weren't his own. Kerry says now that he is proud of his Vietnam service. But he said then that he was ashamed of it.

If Kerry plans to use his war service as a credential, he also should also be held to account for his behavior in its aftermath.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; jackkelly; kerry; militaryrecord; vietgate
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1 posted on 02/11/2004 9:45:27 AM PST by nelsonted1
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To: nelsonted1

What is not honorable is the way Kerry — in testimony before Congress in April, 1971 — falsely accused his fellow Viet vets of routinely committing grisly war crimes.

If he knew of these "war crimes" and didn't report them, isn't that dereliction of duty?  Shouldn't he be court-martialed for that?  Or is he just making stuff up again...

BTW- you need a link to the source.

Owl_Eagle

”Guns Before Butter.”

2 posted on 02/11/2004 9:49:56 AM PST by South Hawthorne (“Before going out drinking, always tape a handcuff key to the inside of your watch band.”)
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To: nelsonted1
The evidence he had of the heroism of Lt (jg) John F. Kerry came chiefly from the after action report of Lt. (jg) John F. Kerry.

Why am I not suprised.

If there is skepticism about W's NG record why is this out-of-bounds?

3 posted on 02/11/2004 9:50:19 AM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: nelsonted1
In the senate, Kerry has a reputation for trying to have things both ways. Kerry exhibited this tendency early on at an antiwar protest in which he flung medals over a fence at the White House — but the medals weren't his own. Kerry says now that he is proud of his Vietnam service. But he said then that he was ashamed of it.

Seems like Kerry and Gore must have gone to the same matchbook correspondence course on "politics 101 - how to reverse yourself more than once"

4 posted on 02/11/2004 9:53:25 AM PST by AgThorn (Go go Bush!! But don't turn your back on America with "immigrant amnesty")
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To: Semper Paratus
That's what caught my eye, too. It sounds as though he manufactured his own Silver Star. Not flattering.
5 posted on 02/11/2004 9:54:55 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (BUSH IN '04: Because we want to outlive Osama Bin Laden.)
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To: centurion316
more good intel
6 posted on 02/11/2004 9:57:29 AM PST by centurion316
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To: nelsonted1
What happened to the story of him being decorated for turning his boat around, under fire, to pick up some guy who had fallen overboard?
7 posted on 02/11/2004 9:59:51 AM PST by grobdriver
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To: nelsonted1
So, he got the Silver Star by writing his own after action report....okay!
8 posted on 02/11/2004 10:01:42 AM PST by mystery-ak (*terrorism has been exaggerated*....Kerry....We must defeat him, our lives depend on it.)
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To: grobdriver
What happened to the story of him being decorated for turning his boat around, under fire, to pick up some guy who had fallen overboard?

I've never heard that one. Maybe it's "urban legand" ala Kennedy's PT109 manufactured story.

9 posted on 02/11/2004 10:03:15 AM PST by LisaMalia (In Memory of James W. Lunsford..KIA 11-29-69 Binh Dinh S. Vietnam)
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To: nelsonted1
I can envision grizzled NGs saying...'you mean they're shooting at us?'...or, 'want me to stop at the grocery store on the way home from drill, honey?'
10 posted on 02/11/2004 10:04:09 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: LisaMalia
Well isn't that the guy they had reunite with Kerry recently? The guy he supposedly "saved"?
11 posted on 02/11/2004 10:05:53 AM PST by grobdriver
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To: Owl_Eagle
Actually, he attempted to have all of the military court-martialed on his word only.
12 posted on 02/11/2004 10:07:00 AM PST by mabelkitty
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To: mike1sg
here's another one for you.
13 posted on 02/11/2004 10:07:37 AM PST by mystery-ak (*terrorism has been exaggerated*....Kerry....We must defeat him, our lives depend on it.)
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To: AgThorn
Seems like Kerry and Gore must have gone to the same matchbook correspondence course on "politics 101 - how to reverse yourself more than once"

JFK dated JFK's wife's half-sister. JFK read PT109 and felt he needed that type of resume to bolster his career (just like JFK). JFK is following the JFK mold in his long standing desire to be the president.

BTW, is NOT Irish-catholic.

14 posted on 02/11/2004 10:08:59 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: grobdriver
Apparently that noted liberal historian Brinkley, of New Orleans, put it in his book about the "HERO".

I heard the "saved" one claim that he was in Southern California, happened to be in a book store, happened to see the book by Brinkley and turned to the page that told his story and made contact with the JFKERRY campaign.

Brinkley's book is the only place where I have heard about this event.
15 posted on 02/11/2004 10:10:03 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: nelsonted1
"But I am unaware of any soldier or Marine who was awarded a decoration of any kind — much less the Silver Star — just for killing a wounded man who was running away."

Bump!

16 posted on 02/11/2004 10:10:47 AM PST by lonevoice (Some things have to be believed to be seen)
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To: grobdriver
you're right--kerry staged a big reunion with the guy in front of news cameras. maybe his bronze star was for that.
but why did kerry and the guy he save avoid each other all those years? i wonder if there is more to that story. i wonder who wrote that report.
17 posted on 02/11/2004 10:11:49 AM PST by drhogan
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To: stuartcr
I can envision grizzled NGs saying...'you mean they're shooting at us?'...or, 'want me to stop at the grocery store on the way home from drill, honey?'

Perhaps you might ask these units' personnel?

Air National Guard
Pueblo Crisis and Vietnam War Mobilizations
1968-1969
Unit Designation Date Mobilized Location Demobilization Date
104 TFS (MD) 7 Apr 68 U.S. 20 Dec 68
119 TFS (NJ) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 17 Jun 69
120 TFS (CO) 26 Jan 68 Phan Rang AB, South Vietnam 30 Apr 69
121 TFS (DC) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 18 Jun 69
123 TRW (KY) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 9 Jun 69
136 TFS (NY) 26 Jan 68 Tuy Hoa AB, South Vietnam 11 Jun 69
138 TFS (NY) 13 May 68 U.S. 20 Dec 68
147 AAS (PA) 13 May 68 U.S. 12 Dec 68
154 TRS (AR) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 20 Dec 68
165 TFS (KY) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 9 Jun 69
166 TFS (OH) 26 Jan 68 Kusan AB, Korea 18 Jun 69
171 AAG (PA) 13 May 68 U.S. 12 Dec 68
174 TFS (IA) 26 Jan 68 Phu Cat AB, South Vietnam 28 May 68
174 TFG (NY) 13 May 68 U.S. 20 Dec 68
175 TFG (MD) 13 May 68 U.S. 20 Dec 68
184 TFG (KS) 26 Jan 68 Kusan AB, Korea 18 Jun 69
188 TFS (NM) 26 Jan 68 Tuy Hoa AB, South Vietnam 4 Jun 69
192 TRS (NV) 26 Jan 68 U.S. 7 Jun 69
* SOURCES: ANG UNIT DATA CARDS, NGB-PAH, NATIONAL GUARDBUREAU, HISTORICAL SERVICES DIVISION, AIR NATIONALGUARD ARCHIVES.

18 posted on 02/11/2004 10:12:26 AM PST by Gunner Mike (Ready on the right? Ready on the left? All ready on the firing line.)
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To: nelsonted1
INTREP - VNVAJK
19 posted on 02/11/2004 10:14:35 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Gunner Mike
Why?
20 posted on 02/11/2004 10:30:07 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: All
"Tom Belodeau, manning the twin 50-caliber machine guns at the rear of the boat, opened fire on the VC, wounding him. The VC fled behind a hooch. Kerry ordered PCF-94 to shore, leaped out of the boat, pursued the VC, and finished him off."

I'm surprized that a 5 foot nothing, 100 pound VC could move after beis hit by a 50 Cal. bullet. Must have been real hard to finish off. Did the VC even have a rifle, or did Kerry murder a defenseless man?

21 posted on 02/11/2004 10:50:32 AM PST by BadAndy (GWB, All compassion, no conservative)
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To: nelsonted1
Kerry's record is fair game and we as Bush freepers should make the most of it. Kerry's RAT supporters and the leftist media put up a big stink about the prez' record until he released some information. It's Kerry's turn to come COMPLETELY CLEAN on his record.
22 posted on 02/11/2004 11:03:15 AM PST by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: lonevoice
Ummmm, wouldn't this be a violation of the Geneva Convention???? Shooting a wounded man?? And how do we know he was running away, we have only Kerry's word for that?
23 posted on 02/11/2004 11:21:30 AM PST by el_texicano
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To: nelsonted1; autoresponder; MeekOneGOP

Kerry's Vietnam service now fair game

Anybody coming up with something solid on Kerry's openly demonstrating against the United States Government while he was still on Active Duty - PLEASE PING ME!

24 posted on 02/11/2004 11:23:42 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S. borders - Controlled by CORRUPT Politicians and Slave-Labor Employers)
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To: lilylangtree
"Kerry's record is fair game and we as Bush freepers should make the most of it. "

Sorry, but that's a dead end, quite frankly. Kerry served in combat in Vietnam, got some medals, and came back. Criticism of what he did while in country is only going to backfire on the critics, quite frankly.

If you want some ammo, focus on his anti-war actions after he got back. The Vietnam War, however, in the early 70's was unpopular with Dems and Republicans alike, for the most part. We all wanted it over, and Nixon obliged by pulling out of Nam.

Analyzing details of what Kerry did or did not do while in active combat in Vietnam is a losing proposition in this race. He was there. He was in combat. He got medals. Leave it alone. It will backfire.
25 posted on 02/11/2004 11:27:00 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Semper Paratus
"Why am I not surprised."

I'm not surprised either. Kind of cheapens it all doesn't it?

26 posted on 02/11/2004 11:33:02 AM PST by mass55th
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To: nelsonted1
The act of "finishing off" somebody wounded by a spray of 50 cal (picture BIG holes) and crawling away may be acceptable conduct but, at least on the face of it, hardly "heroic".

If a German soldier (say, an SS lieutenant) during WWII would have been captured, identified, and found to have done the same thing to an American GI there's a strong likelihood he'd have been greeted by Mr. Rope or Mr. Firing Squad after the war. It might also help explain some of Kerry's statements about "war crimes" and "atrocities" after he came back (early).

27 posted on 02/11/2004 11:38:09 AM PST by katana
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To: nelsonted1
From NRO today:

KERRY IN VIETNAM [John Derbyshire]
VERY interesting, from a military reader. I post the following because of its authentic-sounding quality, with no wish to slight or disparage anyone -- certainly not anyone who did combat duty in Vietnam. Would be very interested to hear comments or rebuttals from knowledgable servicemen or ex-servicemen, and will post them, though I reserve the right to edit (as I have, slightly, here).

"Three caveats to remember before examining JFK's war record:

"(1) Medal inflation. The Viet Nam War (VNW) was unpopular; in unpopular wars medals are generously awarded to try (usually unsuccessfully) to boost the morale of personnel and/or alter public opinion [the Wehrmacht on the Russian Front comes to mind]. The Navy was especially troublesome in this area because the majority of Naval personnel (aviators being the most prominent exception) in the VN theater were almost never exposed to enemy fire -- there were virtually no naval battles in the VNW (probably not even Ton-kin Gulf as it turns out). River patrol craft personnel were thus the Navy's entree into the medal arena -- they got lots of them.

"(2) Three and out. It was a naval tradition -- NOT AN OFFICIAL POLICY OR REGULATION -- that allowed personnel with three Purple Hearts to transfer to non-combat duty. JFK was well aware of this tradition.

"(3) JFK's Rank. Although JFK was not a high ranking officer he was always the highest ranking officer ON THE SCENE -- these were small craft and small operations. Enlisted men would be unlikely to risk contradicting JFK's account of what happened -- and 'boot lickers' would be encouraged to corroborate him. As ranking officer he was the one writing the eye-witness reports. In a sense his medals -- though approved by higher-ups -- were 'self awarded.'

"With these three caveats firmly in mind let's look at JFK's record:

"JFK experienced his first intense combat action on 2 December 1968. He was slightly wounded on his arm, he was awarded his first Purple Heart.

"JFK was awarded his second Purple Heart after sustaining a minor shrapnel wound in his left thigh on 20 February 1969.

"JFK was given a Silver Star for an action on 28 February 1969: JFK's Patrol Craft received a B-40 rocket shot from shore, he beached his craft in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from a nearby (10-15 ft.) hole and fled. The boat's forward machine gunner hit and wounded the fleeing VC as he darted behind a hooch. The twin .50s gunner also fired at the VC. The gunner said he 'laid 50 rounds' into the hooch before JFK leaped from the boat and dashed in to administer a 'coup de grace' to the soldier. JFK returned with a B-40 rocket and launcher. [In contrast, Army and Marine personnel were -- and are still -- routinely trained to engage and close with the enemy. Had JFK been commanding a platoon or rifle company this action -- going towards and not running away from enemy fire -- would have been routine.]

"On March 13, 1969, a mine [this is dubious; marine mines were hardly used by NV forces; it was probably a propelled grenade of some type] detonated near JFK's boat, slighting wounding Kerry in the right arm. He was awarded his third Purple Heart. On the basis of these awards JFK then petitioned to be removed from combat operations. Interestingly JFK also made sure to have the men who served in his craft transferred to safer positions (easy to due in the VNW Navy) -- perhaps to ensure their endorsement of his actions."
28 posted on 02/11/2004 11:43:58 AM PST by rogue yam
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To: Eaker
Another J F'ing K" ping
29 posted on 02/11/2004 11:49:26 AM PST by thackney (Life is Fragile, Handle with Prayer)
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To: nelsonted1
Sounds like it's time to get Kerry's medal records out to the public.
30 posted on 02/11/2004 11:49:53 AM PST by Paul_B
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To: nelsonted1
"Service on the swift boats, which patrolled the Mekong river, was about the only way a sailor who wasn't an aviator or a SEAL could get shot."

The writer is ignorant of the military. (The sailors most likely to get shot are corpsman.) This makes his whole column suspect.

Leave Kerry's war record alone. Politics aside, he's braver than most of his critics.
31 posted on 02/11/2004 12:10:52 PM PST by ahumblefan
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To: nelsonted1; dix; humblegunner; antivenom; bobbyd; eastforker; Flyer; Humidston; olliemb; ...
Another War Record Ping!!

Thanks again, thackney!!!

32 posted on 02/11/2004 12:11:40 PM PST by Eaker (Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark. - Lazarus Long)
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To: nelsonted1
After service on a destroyer, Kerry volunteered again to be a swift boat commander. This was courageous and commendable.

It would be very courageous if Kery had know that swift boats were going to be used to patrol the rivers. However, that mission mission did not come about until after Kerry transferred to swift boats.

What did Kerry expect?

In his own word:

Boston Globe, 6/16/2003: ........"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."......... But two weeks after he arrived in Vietnam, the swift boat mission changed -- and Kerry went from having one of the safest assignments in the escalating conflict to one of the most dangerous.

Ooops.

So, now what? Well, Kerry needed a way to get out of combat as soon as possible. He racked up three Purple Hearts for injuries that cost him a combined grand total of two days in Sick Bay then used the "three Purple Hearts" excuse to ask for and get granted an early termination of his combat tour after serving only four months.

Boston Globe, 6/16/2003: .........Along with Kerry's unquestionable and repeated bravery, he also took an action that has received far less notice: He requested and was granted a transfer out of Vietnam six months before his combat tour was slated to end on the grounds that he had earned three Purple Hearts. None of his wounds was disabling; he said one cost him two days of service and the other two did not lead to any absence. .........The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer.

There is no doubt that Kerry served in combat. However, he did not willingly volunteer for combat and, once in combat, Kerry sea-lawyered himself out of combat as fast as he could for minimal injuries.

By contrast, I recall my uncle coming home as a Bay of Pigs POW and then later coming home from Vietnam with bullet riddled legs and one Purple Heart and, after recovering, going back for a second combat tour, to be followed by more serious wounds and another Purple Heart and another long recovery to be followed by more combat.

Forgive me if I am not overly impressed by what Kerry did in Vietnam and thoroughly disgusted by what Kerry did after he came home from Vietnam.

33 posted on 02/11/2004 12:12:51 PM PST by Polybius
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To: nelsonted1
Bump for later....
34 posted on 02/11/2004 1:01:39 PM PST by eureka! (My hope of hopes is the total demise of the Rat party....)
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To: nelsonted1
I would exercise caution in stories such as these. Navy regulations forbid an officer recommending himself for a commendation for valor. An officer may recieve a commendation for the silver star if he is nominated by his commanding officer and it is subsequently approved by a commendation board. The silver star is awarded from action reports, testimony of those who participated in the action ( save the nominee), the evaluation of his commander and the commendation board.

The Bronze star is awarded at the immediate command level and requires no commendation board review.
35 posted on 02/11/2004 1:10:24 PM PST by tcuoohjohn (Follow The Money)
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To: Eaker
A Silver Star for shooting a wounded man running away. That medal he should have thrown over the fence.
36 posted on 02/11/2004 1:18:50 PM PST by thackney (Life is Fragile, Handle with Prayer)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: bk1251
Who dear sir will come forth and speak for all those who suffered for the "HERO" acts afterwards.

NOw it might make him a HERO in your mind but in my mind it leaves him owing BIG TIME!

He made this the issue and he proudly trotted out his saved one ignoring all those he caused harm by, after he saved 1.

So don't give me a lecture about putting people down.
38 posted on 02/11/2004 3:14:51 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: nelsonted1; woodyinscc
Well, somebody finally came right out and said it.
40 posted on 02/11/2004 3:34:24 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: el_texicano
Ummmm, wouldn't this be a violation of the Geneva Convention???? Shooting a wounded man??

Still armed and non-surrendered.

41 posted on 02/11/2004 3:35:28 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: bk1251
Kerry served his time in Vietnam and did his duty. He gets major credit for that.

He gets major condemnation for contributing to the sterotyping of Vietnam Vtes as rapists, murderers, torturing nut cases.

He gets major condemnation for his votes as a liberal Senator from Massachusetts.

Your guy actually voted aginst the death penalty for terrorists while he supports abortion right up until the baby is half out.

He was wrong on unilateral nuclear disarmament, he was wrong on Gulf War 1, he was wrong on voting no for money for the troops after voting yes for the war in Iraq, he was wrong for voitng no on DOMA, he was wrong for voting against almost every major weapons system we are using today.

His military service isn't the issue, it's his lack of judgement following his military service and for his entire career in government.

In short, it is miserable.

42 posted on 02/11/2004 3:40:32 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: ahumblefan
Leave Kerry's war record alone

No Way, It's in Play all 2-4 months of it and the Commie Crap after it......
43 posted on 02/11/2004 3:47:25 PM PST by cmsgop ( IT WAS THE DIAZ BROTHERS !!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: jwalsh07
Thanks for the ping.

Why isn't the press asking Kerry about this? As an aside, a dim Congressman inferred to Colin Powell in the hearing this morn, that President Bush was AWOL(it was injected into the question, and had nothing to do with the hearing)Powell gave it back to him in spades.

44 posted on 02/11/2004 3:50:58 PM PST by woodyinscc
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To: woodyinscc
Good for General Powell.
45 posted on 02/11/2004 3:52:51 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: woodyinscc
Who was the accuser and was he a vet?
46 posted on 02/11/2004 3:53:11 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: nelsonted1

47 posted on 02/11/2004 3:55:19 PM PST by Mike Bates (Artist Formerly Known as mikeb704.)
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To: nelsonted1
Yup... he's opened the door.
48 posted on 02/11/2004 3:55:26 PM PST by jmstein7 (Real Men Don't Need Chunks of Government Metal on Their Chests to be Heroes)
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To: Polybius
Bookmarking this one. I need to get bak to this one. I thought democrats disapproved of taking assignments thought to be safe.

49 posted on 02/11/2004 3:59:05 PM PST by js1138
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To: bk1251
Oh, I can understand "BONDS" just like the next person.

HATE, how dare you talk to me about hate since the JFKERRY campaign is about nothing else but hate. Hate of this nation and its very foundation.

Now again I ask you what about all those that JFKerry caused harm to by signing up with Jane Fonda, testifying in congress, claiming crap that did not happen. You tell me how 1 person he touts makes up for that harm. Based upon his own words and claims he is a "WAR" criminal.

You have no idea the wounds of what was done in the lie of their supposed "PEACE" movement and he JFKerry said "BRING IT ON".

Now this HERO of yours JFKerry VOTED for a WAR, the war took place and then because it was politically expedient for himself he would not vote to fund those already in the WAR.

Sleep on Sleep on.
50 posted on 02/11/2004 4:00:17 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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