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To: Askel5
I find it astounding that Christians so devout as to uphold the Bible as the be-all, end-all of human affairs can -- in the same breath -- evidence their refusal to allow the Creator a hand in making their every union fruitful if He so desired.

God gave us a free will to choose Him or to reject Him. He gave us a free will to choose when to have children, or even to have none at all. No where in the Word does it say that every union of man and woman must result in children. No where. If God determines that it's time for you to have kids then the barrier method of contraception that you've chosen will not work. (rubbers break etc). I don't believe that God chooses to force things upon us in this life. If He doesn't even force Himself upon us why would He force children upon us?

The sex act between man and wife is for more than just producing children. It is the way that we become one flesh. Joined more closely to each other than to any other person. As we can see in the Song of Solomon, it can also be a whole lot of fun.

Enjoying each other is not against the bible (If you have a verse that outlaws it let me know. I've not been able to find one that even hints that every coupling must produce children. I can't even find one that says that every coupling must have the potential to produce children)

What gives you the right to shut God out of the one truly potent and world-changing act of the Co-Creator man that is reproduction? Where do you find that in the Bible?

First of all man is not the co-creator. There is no such person. Everything was created by Jesus. Not by us.

The only real world changing (improving) act that man can do is to lead another person to Christ. Merely producing children does nothing to change the world. And if you fail to lead those children to Christ then you are actually making the world a worse place than it was.

Man cannot shut God out if God decides to be in. God, however, is a gentleman and will not force Himself or His will upon us. He will bring events to persuade us to do it His way but He will not force us. If He would force us than no one would ever go to Hell and there would be no sin in the world. And we know that that is not the case.

==== I also find nothing wrong with medical assistance ...

Where is the acceptance of God's will in this equation?

Expand this beyond reproductive assistance. "well I have cancer. It must be God's will that I die from it right now because I can't use medical knowledge". "Oops, I cut myself. Must be God's will that I bleed to death because I can't use medical knowledge". "Oh no. My child has spina bifida. It must be God's will that he die young because I can't use medical knowledge" Pretty nonsensical isn't it. God gave us the knowledge to use.

I see nothing in the scriptures that prevents us from using medical knowldge to heal people, or to help them honor God's command to multiply

2376.

Agreed. As I stated in an earlier post

2377. "Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable.

Disagree. There is no biblical prohibition against this.

They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act.

I guess that infertile couples are not allowed to have sex because there's no chance of children. Fortunately there is no biblical command that the sexual act must be procreative every time.

The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that 'entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person.

The act of a husband's sperm uniting with a wife's egg is always an act of them giving to each other. If the appropriate cells need a little assistance to complete the act then that's OK. Again I see nothing in the bible to ban this.

While God can open a barren womb (and has biblically) sometimes he uses doctors to accomplish his will. I've seen people healed of cancer miraculously and I've seen God send people to certain doctors to undergo medical treatment because of which they were healed. How can we say to God "You must fix this problem only this way". God gave us medical knowledge. It would be ungrateful to not use it.

I also disagree that it "establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person." Only God can create life. Only God determines our origin and our destiny.

This is akin to saying that because the local mechanic repaired my car he controls what roads it drives on forever. Not true

38 posted on 02/12/2004 11:24:12 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: John O
=== God gave us a free will to choose Him or to reject Him

And you reject Him when you exclude Him from the act of conjugal union.

40 posted on 02/12/2004 6:46:38 PM PST by Askel5
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To: John O
"They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act."

I guess that infertile couples are not allowed to have sex because there's no chance of children. Fortunately there is no biblical command that the sexual act must be procreative every time.

I agree that the "procreative" argument by itself is rather weak, but I wouldn't compare a lack of pro-creativeness in an infertile couple to homosexual behavior either.

In any case we don't need a Biblical command on this particular aspect of homosexuality since the Bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior outright every place it mentioned in the Bible.

225 posted on 03/06/2004 4:57:33 PM PST by Jorge
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