Who Killed Jesus?: Setting the Record Straight

BreakPoint ^ | 12 Feb 04 | Charles Colson

[Terry Mross]

When I say "the Jews" and am talking about 2,000 years ago and you think I'm talking about Jews today, you're the one who is saying something that is "assinine". If I say "the Slaves" do you think I'm talking about modern day black people? You're nitpicking because you obviously want to argue. The Gospels, in MY OPPINION, state unequivocally that the "Jews", "as was their custom", made THE decision. Can you argue that as fact? No. But, some, including me, believe it on "faith". Did the "Jews" yell, "Give us Barrabas!"? No. They didn't speak English.

[Dr. Frank fan]

When I say "the Jews" and am talking about 2,000 years ago

....then you are STILL committing an error. Most of The Jews 2000 years ago had little or no idea this stuff was going on.

and you think I'm talking about Jews today, you're the one who is saying something that is "assinine".

What I'm saying is that you're failing to specify that you're NOT talking about Jews today. And it would be ever so easy to do so, yet you don't, for some reason. Given the history, then, I can understand why people would take umbrage at your usage.

If I say "the Slaves" do you think I'm talking about modern day black people?

No, because modern day black people aren't slaves. (At least in the US; Sudan is a different story....) As a result, when you say "the slaves", there can be no confusion in that sense.

But when you say "The Jews", there CAN be. Unlike black (American) slaves, which no longer EXIST, Jews still exist today, right?

The Gospels, in MY OPPINION, state unequivocally that the "Jews", "as was their custom", made THE decision.

Where in "The Gospels" is this stated? What are you quoting "as was their custom" from?

One cannot just have "oppinions" about what words books contain (one can have opinions about what those words mean, but not what the words are). Text either exists in a book or it does not. To say that you "believe" that the Bible contains these words, if it doesn't, is nonsensical.

Do the Gospels contain these words? If so, where?

Did the "Jews" yell, "Give us Barrabas!"? No. They didn't speak English.

Right, they probably spoke Aramaic or perhaps old Hebrew.

Did "the Jews" yell "Give us Barrabas" in some other language such as Aramaic or Hebrew?

No. Some of them did, according to the story as I understand it.

But most of the Jews had no idea this stuff was taking place.

Do you understand that Jews are individuals?

[Francisco]

Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: 'His blood be on us and our children'; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the end of time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood. [St. Alphonsus Maria Liguouri, The Passion and death of Jesus Christ.]

Pilate took water in accordance with that, 'I will wash my hands in innocency', in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man .... Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us and on our children. This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews: the Lord's blood is not removed from them. [St Thomas Aquinas : Catena Aurea]

By this alone the Jews can receive pardon of their sins, if they wash away the blood of Christ slain, in His baptism, and, passing over into His Church, obey His precepts. In Isaiah the Lord says: 'Now I will not release your sins. When ye stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my face from you; and if ye multiply prayers, I will not hear you: for your hands are full of blood.' [St Cyprian: Against the Jews]

[Inyokern]

Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads in saying: 'His blood be on us and our children'; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the end of time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood. [St. Alphonsus Maria Liguouri, The Passion and death of Jesus Christ.]

Pilate took water in accordance with that, 'I will wash my hands in innocency', in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man .... Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us and on our children. This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews: the Lord's blood is not removed from them. [St Thomas Aquinas : Catena Aurea]

By this alone the Jews can receive pardon of their sins, if they wash away the blood of Christ slain, in His baptism, and, passing over into His Church, obey His precepts. In Isaiah the Lord says: 'Now I will not release your sins. When ye stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my face from you; and if ye multiply prayers, I will not hear you: for your hands are full of blood.' [St Cyprian: Against the Jews]

Thank you, Francisco, you are treasure trove of Jew-hating statements made by Christian leaders. Any Jew stupid enough to even THINK of converting to Christianity should be required to read these. Do you have more?

[Francisco]

Acts of the Apostles

Therefore, let all the House of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. [Acts 2:36]

Be it known unto you all, even to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. [Acts 4:10]

And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, 'Ye men of Israel .... Jesus, whom ye delivered up, and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.' [Acts 3:12-15]

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree. [Acts 10:39]

[Francisco]

Saint Edith Stein - “Oh how much my people will have to suffer before they convert!”

[Terry Mross]

Were you there? No. Then how do you know "most" of the Jews didn't know this was taking place? Where is your text to prove that "most" of the Jews didn't know this was taking place?

You didn't agree with my comparison of "slaves" to "Jews" of 2000 years ago. Modern day Jews don't have anyone coming around that's supposed to be the Messiah, either. So, for someone as simple minded as I, it's very clear who I'm talking about when I say "The Jews".

I said it's my oppinion. It is my belief. Now I'll give you the chapter and verses showing why it is my belief.

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was speaking to "His" people. Therefore, Jesus was preaching to the Jews.

Matthew 26:(3) and I quote "Then the chief priests (plural) AND the elders of THE PEOPLE assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and THEY plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." (I can't see how anyone can read this and not see the "they" and not think it is Jesus' own people. It sure wasn't the Romans "assembled in the palace".)

Next, Matthew 26:(14) and I quote "Then one of the twelve, the one called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and asked, 'What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?' So THEY counted out for him thirty silver coins." (Again, were these Roman priests?)

Next, concerning Judas, Matthew 26:(47) "With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, SENT from the chief priests and the elders of THE PEOPLE."

Matthew 26:(59) "The chief priests and the WHOLE Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. But they did not find any, though many came forward." (This tells me the Sanhedrin, all Jews, were the ones falsely testifying against Him.)

Matthew 26:(66) The high priest asked "What do you think? 'He is worthy of death', THEY answered." (Now, where you get the idea that there was anyone present other than the Jewish people is beyond me.)

Matthew 27:(12) "When He was accused by the chief priests and elders He gave no answer. (13) Then Pilate asked him, 'Don't you hear how many things they are accusing you of?'" (Again, who is THEY? According to this scripture THEY are the priests and elders. No Romans or Samaritans, et al are mentioned.)

Finally Matthew 27:(15) "Now it was the governor's CUSTOM at the Feast to release a prisoner CHOSEN by the crowd." (This Feast was a Jewish holiday. I have no reason to think that those present were of anything but the Jewish faith.) (16) "At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas."

(17) "So, when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, 'Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?' (18) For he knew it was out of envy that THEY had handed Jesus over to him."

(19) "While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: 'Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.'"

(20) "But the chief priests (plural) and the elders PERSUADED the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed."

(21)"'Which of the two do you want me to release to you?' asked the governor. 'Barabbas, they answered."

(22) "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?' Pilate asked. They ALL answered, 'Crucify him!'"

Verse 24 Pilate says, "It is your responsibility". (Since they had ALL answered "Crucify him", I see no reason to believe the "all" who answered were of anything but the Jewish faith?)

(25) "ALL the people answered, 'Let his blood be on us and on our children.'" (This is the verse many quote as the reason for the Jews continual persecution. I don't think this is true because my God forgives and they didn't have a choice.)

So, there you have it. Not my oppinion but my belief based on scripture. The "Jews" of that day were responsible for Christ's crucifiction. For some reason the Jews of today don't want to accept that. Like I said, if I was still of the Jewish faith I would say, "Don't blame me. First of all, I wasn't there. Second, those who were there didn't have a choice."

I apologize for incorrect spellings or typos that may appear. For instance, I know Pilate is not Pilot. Then again, he didn't speak English, either so I really don't know what his name was or how it was spelled.

[missyme]

Thank you, Francisco, you are treasure trove of Jew-hating statements made by Christian leaders. Any Jew stupid enough to even THINK of converting to Christianity should be required to read these. Do you have more????

OF course we do Inyokern, millions and millions of Jews have embraced Christianity and they are still Jews as Jesus was, you know why??? no you don't but I will tell you, they want to be reconciled with G-d for being a sinner and they don't elect for eternal death the penalty for sin, they opt for eternal life in G-d's kingdom.

Maybe one day you will repent and choose eternal life by asking Jesus for for forgiveness. It is pretty easy: Ask Jesus to forgive you I am telling you he will if it comes from your heart...

[is_is]

"It was both and neither. The Jews didn't cause the death of Jesus, nor did the Romans. They were merely instruments carrying out what God had decreed. He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross so that the sins of mankind might be forgiven. And those who take Scripture seriously have always known who killed Jesus: You and I and all other sinful human beings did so."


Sorry.....God sent his only begotten son to die....I understand what the writer is saying but God choose to play it out this way....he being God could have layed out any manner of salvation for us but he decided on this scenario.....take it back another step....he being all knowing knew that his people would reject him before he ever created heaven and earth.....All things lay at his door step ultimately....I do not offer this up to prove his infallabilty because he is infallible for sure......just a thought that hit me as i was reading the article......

[Rightly Biased]

With out the Resurrection then it is all a farce, and God is not who He says He is.All of that is true but one must accept that

The Cross was a cruel death

Scourging with a cat-o-nine tails is excruciating

A crown of thorns rammed into your brow is unimaginable

Taking all the sins of the world upon you when you knew NO sin is more painful than anything man could imagine.

So I sin and put Him on the cross.

He bled to become the Savior of the world

The last point so many especially "LIBS" cannot fathom because Government is to be the "savior" of the people.

And yes my FRiend he rose again and will return to take us home to Glory

Regards
RB.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Were you there? No. Then how do you know "most" of the Jews didn't know this was taking place?

Simple logic, geometry, geography, and demographics.

Unless there were less than about 1000 Jews at the time of these events, which I don't think is true, it is virtually impossible for all of Judea to have compressed themselves into the space required to be able to have heard Pilate's question.

As for who knew of the fact that a guy named "Jesus" had been arrested and was now being held by the Romans pending crucifixion, I will grant that more people probably knew of this fact by rumor than actually came to hear Pilate's question.

On the other hand, these events took place in a fairly short period of time. Since wired/wireless communication did not exist at this time, all news of these events (which took place in one city - Jerusalem) would have had to have been transferred by foot. Jerusalem was far from the only Jew-containing city even back then. It does not stand to reason, then, that even a majority of Judea knew of these events. It stands to reason that the first most Jews heard of these events was in the past tense ("Jesus was crucified").

Actually the first most Jews probably heard of these events, it probably went like this: "Jesus was crucified, and then rose three days later", and was told to them by a Christian, because Christians would have been the most active and eager people seeking to spread this information.

You didn't agree with my comparison of "slaves" to "Jews" of 2000 years ago. Modern day Jews don't have anyone coming around that's supposed to be the Messiah, either. So, for someone as simple minded as I, it's very clear who I'm talking about when I say "The Jews".

Again, there's no possible confusion that when you say "slaves" you could be talking about modern day black Americans, because those are different things, and signified by different words.

But "The Jews" and "The Jews" are the same exact terms, and try as I might I cannot see a way to distinguish between the two. When I write "The Jews" & "The Jews", you're a better man than I if you can figure out which of these two terms refers to the kind that had someone claiming to be the messiah amongst them, and the kind that didn't.

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was speaking to "His" people. Therefore, Jesus was preaching to the Jews.

Some of them, anyway. It was physically impossible for Jesus ever to have preached to all of the Jews at the same time. But, go on.

the elders of THE PEOPLE

You can capitalize "the people" if you want but this doesn't change the fact that here Matthew is talking about only a small number of people (the elders).

and THEY plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." (I can't see how anyone can read this and not see the "they" and not think it is Jesus' own people.

Actually here it's quite clear that "they" refers to "the elders".

We're talking about probably a few dozen people here, at most. Anything else?

So THEY counted out for him thirty silver coins." (Again, were these Roman priests?)

No, they were Jewish. And the "they" refers, again, to a small number of individual people. Not "The Jews", but some Jews. Like I've been saying numerous times now.

the elders of THE PEOPLE."

You keep doing this, capitalizing "the people". But the noun phrase here is "the elders of the people". In other words, the elders. A small number of men.

Here's an analogy to help you understand. George W Bush is the leader of the Americans. Suppose George W Bush scratches his nose. Does this mean that "The Americans" scratched "their" nose?

Even if I write it like this, "George W Bush is the leader of THE AMERICANS"?

This tells me the Sanhedrin, all Jews, were the ones falsely testifying against Him.

Right. No one's disputing that. The fact that all of the Sanhedrin were Jews does not mean that all Jews were Sanhedrin. Simple logic here really.

The high priest asked "What do you think? 'He is worthy of death', THEY answered." (Now, where you get the idea that there was anyone present other than the Jewish people is beyond me.)

Again, "they" = members of the crowd = a few hundred a most.

The reason I think that non-Jews could have been present is that non-Jews could have been present. The fact taht the Bible doesn't mention the presence of non-Jews in that throng of people does not mean there were no non-Jews in that throng of people. (The Bible doesn't mention any of this throng wearing sandals either but that doesn't mean none of them were wearing sandals.)

Then Pilate asked him, 'Don't you hear how many things they are accusing you of?'" (Again, who is THEY? According to this scripture THEY are the priests and elders.

Exactly, priests and elders. Not "The Jews", but some Jews. glad we agree.

For he knew it was out of envy that THEY had handed Jesus over to him."

Again, "THEY" = the Sanhedrin. Capitalizing "they" doesn't magically turn the Sanhedrin into all of Israel.

(Since they had ALL answered "Crucify him", I see no reason to believe the "all" who answered were of anything but the Jewish faith?)

Why, couldn't a non-Jew have cried out for Jesus's crucifixion?

Not my oppinion but my belief based on scripture. The "Jews" of that day were responsible for Christ's crucifiction.

But BASED ON SCRIPTURE that you've just quoted to me, it's INCORRECT to say "the Jews of that day were responsible for Christ's crucifixion".

BASED ON SCRIPTURE, it's quite clear that SOME Jews (=the Sanhedrin (a couple dozen Jews, probably) + some people in some crowd on a certain day (a few hundred, at most)) were responsible.

What you're saying actually goes AGAINST scripture. Scripture makes it quite clear that the number of Jews involved in or indirectly responsible for Jesus's death is quite small (in relation to the known population of Judea/Palestine at the time).

...if I was still of the Jewish faith I would say, "Don't blame me. First of all, I wasn't there.

And actually, you could stop right there. That's enough.

[Bobby777]

As Christ hangs on the cross while it is being lifted into place, the soldier pulling it up is Rembrandt. Who killed Jesus? Rembrandt knew. He did. And I did. And you did. We're the ones who sent Jesus to the cross loaded down with our sins.

Colson got this right.

[Bobby777]

correct ... and God superseded Exodus 20:5 later on clearly ...

Jeremiah 31
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

[commish]

Who Killed Jesus?

I did! You will find me standing right next to Mel in the culpability line. I did it, and I am ashamed, and I am not worthy of his love; but I have his love and his promise. I HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN!

[timydnuc]

I am a Catholic, I have spent a lifetime with my religion. Sometimes I hated it, most times I loved it. It gives me comfort in the storm of life. It has taken a lifetime, my lifetime, to understand the Word of God.

The non-believers, the atheists question the gospel. They now ask the question, 'who killed Jesus'. They asked that question because they will never get the answer. I smile quietly and I know the answer to the question. If you notice that 'they' never say the word GOD. I, nor any man, can ever answer the question. "He who believes in me, thought he be dead, shall live forever". There is a statement from the Lord that has been analyzed for the past 2000 years. It's simple, take it at it's meaning. God is so much more simple that the 'elitist' give Him credit for. He gave His only Son to this earth to save the souls that he loved, He knew what would happen, but He did it anyway. He gave us the gift of eternal salvation, and a code to live up to. He gave His only son to die for our sins and start all over again.

The people that can't believe just don't get it, and they never will. The miracle of Jesus Christ is lost on them.

[Mr. Silverback]

The people that can't believe just don't get it, and they never will. The miracle of Jesus Christ is lost on them.

I have only responded to a couple of comments in this thread, but I really love it and have visited it several times since I posted it. Yours is just the latest of so many beautiful posts by Christians humbly acknowledging His greatness, our evil, and His grace.

Dutch Sheets wrote a great article (not online anymore) called How To Pray For The Lost that did a great job presenting the Greek in the NT references to those who are lost. He made the case that they are not just non-believing, but blinded to the point that they are non compis mentis in spiritual matters and need to be prayed into a state where they can understand the Gospel. Powerful stuff, but probably lost in the translation of my retelling here.

[Terry Mross]

I give up. You are the one assumeing things...THERE'S TOO MUCH ASSUMIN' GOIN' ON DEAH". I know only what i've read. And generations after generations have concluded along with me that it was "the Jews" who turned Jesus over to Pilate and it was "the Jews" who chose to have him crucified. When the high priests or elders "pursuaded" the crowd I assume it was a Jewish crowd. You assume there were "others" present. Do you believe the "other" you guess were present would be susceptible to be "persuaded" by Caiaphas? Maybe a few Romans got caught up in the action and started yelling for Caiaphus. Hell, they may have even formed the wave, they were so excited. No, sir, the crowds were there for the feast, their holiday, a holiday celebrated by the Jews. Their leaders sent a group of them for Jesus. That group turned him over to the high priests where they falsely accused him. They then turn him over to the governor and he gave them a choice. The simple fact is the Jews killed Jesus.

I'll say it one more time, the Jew I worked with and the Jews who are my friends didn't do it. The Jews who walked with Christ did it. So, I ask you a simple question: Who killed Christ, the Romans or the Jews? Will your answer be "some" Jews? Who killed Custer? Will your answer be "Some Indians". Ask me and I'll say "The Jews" and "The Indians". And there's one other question: Who killed "The Jews" during the holocaust? Or do you think I should ask it: Who killed "some" Jews during the holocaust since not all of them were killed. Ask me and I'll say, "Hitler killed the Jews" and anyone with any sense will know what I mean.

Have a nice day and it's been fun. It forced me to read a book I don't read often enough.

[sheik yerbouty]

I missed the interview with Mel Gibson with Diane sawyer. Is there a way of getting a transcript of it?

[richardtavor]

I'm not sure what a 'philosophical theist' is, but I strongly suggest that you just watch the movie with no preconceived notions--at worst, you wasted the $7.50 to watch a bad movie, but, at best, you might get a better understanding that might move you from the peg of 'philosophical theist'. I personally believe that Truth is where you find it--not where you perceive it....