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Black Man Was a Rock Hill Leader Before Integration (Belonged to KKK? a redshirt? in 1870s SC)
The Charlotte Observer ^ | Feb. 15, 2004 | LOUISE PETTUS

Posted on 02/16/2004 10:22:09 AM PST by Between the Lines

For half a century, from 1870 to 1920, a black man lived in Rock Hill who was a remarkable leader, admired by both blacks and whites. J. Henry Toole was born about 1852. The U.S. Census gives his birthplace as North Carolina and another source says he was born in Raleigh.

As soon as Toole arrived in town, he opened Rock Hill's first barber shop, which was for white men only. Each customer had his own shaving mug with gold lettering. No doubt this allowed Toole to gather much useful information from the town's business community.

In 1872, Toole was arrested with 194 others by Union officers and charged with being a member of the Ku Klux Klan. For 41 days, Toole shared a Yorkville jail cell with Capt. Iredell Jones of Mount Gallant plantation and Samuel Fewell of Ebenezer. He was not charged but the three other black men arrested at the same time were sent to Columbia for prosecution.

In 1876, the S.C. Democratic Party endorsed the Confederate hero Gen. Wade Hampton for S.C. governor with rallies and parades by white men sporting red shirts. Hampton was present in Rock Hill to launch the parade. The Rock Hill Red Shirts, a group organized to remove Federal troops from the state during Reconstruction, included a cavalry unit of black men led by Toole.

Toole was the only black Episcopalian in Rock Hill until the Rev. Edmond Joyner established St. Paul's Mission for Blacks on West Black Street in 1884. Toole became the leader of the Mission, which operated a Sunday school, and a trade and day school. The mission closed in 1921, shortly after Toole's death.

In 1894, Toole sought a position as Register of Deeds for the District of Columbia, but he did not get the job. Toole probably was attracted to Washington because he had a brother, Gray Toole, who was President Cleveland's personal barber. Gray Toole even had a room in the White House. Charlotte directories show that Gray Toole had two barber shops in Charlotte in 1890.

During the 1880s and 1890s, J. Henry Toole purchased a number of Rock Hill lots, losing at least two buildings to fires that swept off one side or the other of Main Street. Maybe this is what tempted him to open a barber shop in Yorkville in 1901, "under the Parish Hotel."

But he must have returned to Rock Hill by 1904 when Gov. D.C. Heyward appointed him notary public.

Toole was one of the founders of Rock Hill's first black newspaper, the Rock Hill Messenger.

When Toole endorsed the Rev. P.J. Drayton to be president of Claflin College in Orangeburg, C.P.T. White, editor of the Messenger, thundered against him. White wrote that he was voicing the "sentiments of every self-respecting colored citizen in South Carolina" who would rise up against the recommendation by a "Negro Democrat, a Ku Klux... ." Toole, calling the editorial "malicious slander" sued White for $5,000 and was represented by the Rock Hill law firm Spencer and Dunlap. White was defended by Wilson and Wilson of Rock Hill. The case was settled out of court.

In 1911, Toole sold his barber shop to Albert Collins of Indian Land in Lancaster County. The 1913, the Rock Hill Directory stated that Toole owned a grocery store at 101 Main St. In 1913-15, Toole petitioned for a black school and offered three rooms in a building he owned.

Toole died Oct. 15, 1920. The funeral was at the Church of Our Savior with assistance by the pastors of First Presbyterian and St. John's Methodist. The honorary pall bearers were Gilbert Greene, John Roddey, Ben Fewell, Henry Massey, Capt. J.W. Marshall, John Black, Julius Friedheim, W.W. Gill, David Hutchison, William Hutchison and Col. W. J. Rawlinson, all of whom were white business leaders, an indication of the high status that Toole attained with that group.

Toole was buried in Charlotte at St. Peters Episcopal Cemetery. Toole's first wife, Lucy, died in January 1893. He was survived by his second wife, the former Ella Mikell of Charleston, three sons and a daughter.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: South Carolina
KEYWORDS: blackhistory
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This story kinda flies in the face of everything we were taught in induction camp public school.
1 posted on 02/16/2004 10:22:09 AM PST by Between the Lines
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To: ValerieUSA; landshark
Ping!
2 posted on 02/16/2004 10:26:27 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
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To: Between the Lines
This story begs the question, to wit;
Will descendants of black slave-owners be required to pay reparations to themselves?!?!?
3 posted on 02/16/2004 10:29:28 AM PST by Condor51 ("Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments." -- Frederick the Great)
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To: Between the Lines
Very interesting story.
Opens the door for a lot of questions.
4 posted on 02/16/2004 10:32:38 AM PST by GrandEagle
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Between the Lines
taught in induction camp
(Shocked look on face)- Surely your not insinuating that our hard earned tax money is spent teaching untruths?.
6 posted on 02/16/2004 10:34:59 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: rdb3; Khepera; elwoodp; MAKnight; condolinda; mafree; Trueblackman; FRlurker; Teacher317; ...
Black conservative ping

If you want on (or off) of my black conservative ping list, please let me know via FREEPmail. (And no, you don't have to be black to be on the list!)

Extra warning: this is a high-volume ping list.

7 posted on 02/16/2004 10:38:31 AM PST by mhking (Machines don't have the right to remain silent.)
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To: Between the Lines; 4ConservativeJustices; stainlessbanner; aomagrat; stand watie; GOPcapitalist
This story kinda flies in the face of everything we were taught in induction camp public school.

Ping

8 posted on 02/16/2004 10:40:02 AM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: GrandEagle
Surely your not insinuating that our hard earned tax money is spent teaching untruths?

Americans have the best public education system in the world, far exceeding that of any other country.

I learned that in school ;)

9 posted on 02/16/2004 10:41:15 AM PST by Between the Lines
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To: Between the Lines
Reminds me of a Dave Chapelle bit.
10 posted on 02/16/2004 10:45:07 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Between the Lines
...I learned that in school
LOL! Me TOO!
11 posted on 02/16/2004 10:46:51 AM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Arkinsaw
exactly what I thought of. I forget his name. I keep thinking of Tyrell Biggums, but I think he is the crack addict.
12 posted on 02/16/2004 10:52:01 AM PST by job (Dinsdale?Dinsdale?)
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To: Arkinsaw
Well he was a barber so I doubt he was blind ;)
13 posted on 02/16/2004 10:57:10 AM PST by Bogey78O (Why are we even having this debate?)
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To: Between the Lines
This story kinda flies in the face of everything we were taught in induction camp public school.

Ya, you got it. One story proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there never was slavery, the Klan was a kindly benevolent society that only sought to help the less fortunate, and that the thousands of blacks found hanging from trees were all suicides. The damn Yankees just made all that other stuff up. < / sarcasm >

14 posted on 02/16/2004 11:01:07 AM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: billbears; sweetliberty
interesting story
15 posted on 02/16/2004 11:03:58 AM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: stainlessbanner
Another side of the vast expanse of American history
16 posted on 02/16/2004 11:05:56 AM PST by cyborg
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To: Ditto
You must have come here straight from the Abe Lincoln?s Birthday threads.
17 posted on 02/16/2004 11:08:20 AM PST by Between the Lines
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To: Arkinsaw
Clayton Bigsby?
18 posted on 02/16/2004 11:09:08 AM PST by job (Dinsdale?Dinsdale?)
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To: Between the Lines
You must have come here straight from the Abe Lincoln?s Birthday threads.

No, it was from Logic 101. You read a sappy story written only because it is exceptional and turn that exception into a rule (everything you learned in school was a lie) that fits your preconceived notions.

19 posted on 02/16/2004 11:29:28 AM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
You read a sappy story written only because it is exceptional and turn that exception into a rule (everything you learned in school was a lie) that fits your preconceived notions.

Actually I was taught that there were never any blacks in the KKK nor were there any blacks belonging to the red-shirts. Today, I find out not only were there blacks in the KKK but in Rock Hill there were over 800 blacks who marched as red-shirts in a parade of only 2000 marchers. 800 is a far cry from none. Especially when you take into account that Rock Hill had a black population of only 1500 at the time.

I know that one should not use absolutes in making a statement, but I did not learn that in school. And it seems the schools did not learn this lesson of absolutes, when they state that there were never any blacks in the KKK.

(everything you learned in school was a lie)

I never said that. Much of history taught is a lie though.

You read a sappy story written only because it is exceptional and turn that exception into a rule

Actually, the history you and I have been taught makes the exception the rule, and not I. For instance, you mentioned the blacks that had been lynched. These 2,518 blacks lynched by white mobs in 10 southern states are well documented and widely published in the history books. But have you ever heard of the 20,000+ blacks killed by whites in the more than 300 race riots that took place outside of the southern states? Surely you have. If the deaths of 2,518 blacks in the south is important enough to have whole chapters dedicated to the subject in history books, then the death of 20,000+ blacks outside of the south during the same period would be of even greater importance. Yet this fact in history is blatantly missing from the history books. Found only in a footnote here and there. For you see, it cannot be known that the great northern people who fought to free the slaves and to give them equal protection under the law, has a just as hateful and bigoted history as the south.

20 posted on 02/16/2004 12:42:30 PM PST by Between the Lines
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To: Between the Lines
that the great northern people who fought to free the slaves..
owned slaves until the 13th amendment. General Grant being one of them. It is also taught that Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation "freed" all slaves. Again false, it only applied to the Southern States that had withdrawn from the Union, as a means to economically crush them. The remainder of the slaves continued in servitude until the 13th amendment was ratified.
It is very common to try and paint the South as the haven of bigotry; Northerners are frequently too afraid to look in the mirror.
When anything is mentioned about the Northern contribution to slavery, we get the response like you got about us thinking that the KKK was just some kind of social club.
The bottom line I believe is that the victors in any struggle get to write history; and therefore get to erase the parts that embarrass them.
21 posted on 02/16/2004 1:11:06 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle
http://memory.loc.gov/ Good source of firsthand accounts of the time in question.
22 posted on 02/16/2004 1:15:20 PM PST by Abcdefg
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To: Abcdefg
source of firsthand accounts of the time in question.
Thanks, that is a source I was unaware of.
23 posted on 02/16/2004 1:24:29 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Between the Lines
Actually I was taught that there were never any blacks in the KKK nor were there any blacks belonging to the red-shirts. Today, I find out not only were there blacks in the KKK but in Rock Hill...

My education must have been really bad. I never learned a thing about Rock Hill. ;~))

If the deaths of 2,518 blacks in the south is important enough to have whole chapters dedicated to the subject in history books, then the death of 20,000+ blacks outside of the south during the same period would be of even greater importance. Yet this fact in history is blatantly missing from the history books.

20,000? I'd like to see that source. That number seems wildly inflated to me. But your point is taken that the lynchings have generated more history. Partly, however, that is justifiable. First of all, not all lynchings were in the "south" although the majority were. Secondly, lynchings, unlike "race riots" (which occurred in both the north and south) typically required the cooperation of state and local law enforcement. They were typically not simple mob actions but a form of organized and tacitly sanctioned actions designed specifically to intimidate a class of citizens. Local and state law enforcement usually protected instead of prosecuting the offenders. That makes them a more serious violation of rights than drunken mobs clashing in the streets.

I also see that you immediately reverted to the poor picked on south defense by saying that the north is just as bad. You don't have an argument from me, but pointing to the historical sins of one side does nothing to lesson the sins of the other. Be as proud as you like of your state or region, but learn to accept that not all of the history is honorable.

24 posted on 02/16/2004 1:35:52 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: GrandEagle
When anything is mentioned about the Northern contribution to slavery, we get the response like you got about us thinking that the KKK was just some kind of social club.

But is that really the response you get? I'd say most Americans accept that slavery was a national wrong, not a peculiarly Southern sin. Most people would probably agree with you if you said that today Blacks are better integrated into Southern society than Northern. If you want to go further than this and attack Northerners or Unionists and try to mount a case for the Confederacy as the right side in the Civil War, people will rightfully object, but that's a different question.

A lot of charges get thrown around here, and people lose track of just what they prove or justify. It becomes an "us agin' them" thing that very quickly gets separated from specific propositions and hypotheses. Some people simply point out that no region can claim perfect righteousness and that good and evil are more mixed in the world. Others promote a "the South was right!" ideology that looks like another form of arrogant, self-righteous triumphalism. Often the response that people get depends on which contention they're making.

25 posted on 02/16/2004 1:58:56 PM PST by x
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To: Ditto
20,000? I'd like to see that source. That number seems wildly inflated to me.

It probably is wildly inflated, I find most history written by any side of the issue prone to exaggeration. I got it from some black holocaust web sites but then I got the number of lynchings there also. Here is one of these sites: http://www.blackwallstreet.freeservers.com/

Race riots (which occurred mostly in the north) unlike lynchings, usually required the cooperation of state and local law enforcement. They were typically not simple mob actions but a form of organized and tacitly sanctioned actions designed specifically to intimidate a class of citizens. Local state and even federal law enforcement usually protected instead of prosecuting the offenders, even the US congress has sealed documents to prevent the knowledge of these atrocities from reaching the public (ie the East Saint Louis Riots). That makes them a much more serious violation of rights than drunken lynch mobs accosting the occasional black man.

I also see that you immediately reverted to the poor picked on south defense by saying that the north is just as bad.

No, I did not mean to insinuate that the the north was just as bad as the south. In the south all the sins are laid open to see in the history books, yet in the north everything is a secret, so the north is much worse in that they are so hypocritical.

26 posted on 02/16/2004 2:58:26 PM PST by Between the Lines
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To: Between the Lines
OK. Just wrap yourself in the Bonnie Blue and feel all snuggly and warm. So-sorry to disturb you petty regional smugness.
27 posted on 02/16/2004 3:04:24 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: x
I'd say most Americans accept that slavery was a national wrong, not a peculiarly Southern sin.

I would say most Americans see the Klan, segregation and Jim Crow-ism as mostly a southern thing, if not totally unique to the South. Never realizing how blacks and others were "kept in their place" in there own hometowns and states, or the fact that the US government openly embraced segregation before WWII and secretly well into the 1960s.

28 posted on 02/16/2004 3:24:20 PM PST by Between the Lines
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To: Between the Lines
This story does not surprise me since it took place right after the Civil War. The original KKK went after people who supported the so called carpet baggers and was not totally racially oriented. They protected both white and black property owners, IF THE BLACKS STAYED IN THEIR PLACE, which is where the catch was. Probably after 1880 or 1890 and certainly in the 1930's the KKK was totally racially oriented.

In the town where I live, some of the older blacks have told me stories of how they were protected from the so called "po' white trash", by the local KKK. But once again they were expected to STAY IN THEIR PLACE, and were treated as second class citizens. Right or wrong, I am just talking about history.

Separate but equal was an accepted way of life by the blacks and the whites in some areas. But, very seldom were the blacks treated as equals. This was especially true in the ability to obtain higher education. When our high schools integrated, a large number of the black students did very well academically which would leave you to believe their educational system did work to a certain extent.

And then there was football. Lincolnton, GA probably has one of the best records in the country. We have Garrison Hearst, Barney Bussey, and a few other's playing Pro Football right now. The first year of integration we had an amusing incident at one of the games. One of our black halfbacks was tackled and went out of bounds to the wire. A bunch of rednecks from another town kicked him. Once again this is history and the following is an actual quote and is in no way meant to be a racial slur. But this is what happened and this was the war cry that came from the Lincoln County Rednecks, "You Son of a Bitches, that's a Lincoln County nigger you just kicked", as the fight started.

During the integration process, slightly prior to this incident, there was a civil rights march in Lincolnton of mostly outsiders. The local whites and blacks banned together and jumped on them and ran them out of town. This with a warning, we will solve our own problems.
29 posted on 02/16/2004 3:43:32 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: Ditto
Black people got the screws put to them no matter where they lived.
30 posted on 02/16/2004 3:45:12 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: billbears; Ditto; All
hardly anyone TODAY wants to KNOW the TRUTH, as the truth makes them UNCOMFORTABLE!

the FACT that between 100,000 and 150,000 black men (and NOT a few women) HONORABLY served the CSA as soldiers,sailors & marines is one of those UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTHS!

as the late/great professor Arnold Toynbee of Oxford Univ. said,

free dixie,sw "History is FICTION, popularly agreed on by tyrants & conquerers."

31 posted on 02/16/2004 4:41:12 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: billbears; Ditto; All
hardly anyone TODAY wants to KNOW the TRUTH, as the truth makes them UNCOMFORTABLE!

the FACT that between 100,000 and 150,000 black men (and NOT a few women) HONORABLY served the CSA as soldiers,sailors & marines is one of those UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTHS!

as the late/great professor Arnold Toynbee of Oxford Univ. said,

"History is FICTION, popularly agreed on by tyrants & conquerers."

free dixie,sw

32 posted on 02/16/2004 4:41:59 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: Ditto
what your comment proves is you wouldn't know the truth (or speak the truth) if someone handed you a ton of it.

according to the SCLC in the 1970s, the largest DOCUMENTED number of lynchings in the USA was about 500.

ONE was too many, but your "thousands" makes you look ignorant and/or UNtruthful.

free dixie,sw

33 posted on 02/16/2004 5:05:03 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: Ditto
i'd bet you believed wee willie klintoon about the "hundreds of black churches that burned in Arkansas when i was a boy", too. (NOTE: there was NOT even ONE!)

free dixie,sw

34 posted on 02/16/2004 5:06:53 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: Ditto
Another story/concoction of a negro/black man helping to promote slavery! Sure it happened but this is 2004! Racisim plays into the dimocrats hands!!!
35 posted on 02/16/2004 5:49:52 PM PST by rocksblues (Keep em Flying and come home safe!)
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To: Between the Lines
You're talking about different things: legal segregation and keeping minorities "in their place" or out of the way. Perhaps the line between such practices wasn't always clear or well-defined. But there was a difference between not being able to eat at a specific restaurant or stay at a particular hotel because of a manager's decision and being legally banned from any restaurant or hotel by law.

The knowledge that African Americans were excluded from many opportunities and received little acceptance or encouragement from the White population anywhere in the country, shouldn't obscure the fact that the Mason-Dixon line did mark a real divide in much of the last century. The difference certainly doesn't give Northerners any right to crow, but historically, it shouldn't be ignored or denied.

There's a tendency to argue that because one can't totally separate different things that there aren't distinctions. Morally, perhaps, no region of the country can legitimately look down on another. We're all in this together and there's enough guilt to go around, but the result may be to bleach away details and distinctions that did exist.

As we shouldn't have any trouble admitting today that Whites and Blacks probably do get along better in the South today, what's the problem with admitting that in the past there were serious problems? Those who say that Northerners are morally arrogant or self-righteous or unwilling to look seriously at their own faults, may have the same problems themselves in assuming that today's greater racial harmony in the South was always the case.

Those who saw the events of the 1950s and 1960s graphically enacted on their television screens naturally formed conclusions based on what they saw. And many haven't had their minds changed by the revelation of racial conflicts and hostility in other parts of the country. They stick with what they saw a generation or two ago.

But for younger people, the main dividing line is betwen Black and White, not South and North, and there's much less of a desire to draw invidious distinctions between North and South. Either the kids know nothing about history, or racial issues have been so stressed over sectional ones in their education that they have little sectional arrogance or chauvinism.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it certainly looks like North-South animosities seem to have been eclipsed by other divisions in the population in recent decades. Such conflicts come out in an election year, and people do try to justify their political preferences by reference to sectional divisions, but I doubt regional consciousness or animosity are as much a part of people's lives as they once were.

36 posted on 02/16/2004 6:08:11 PM PST by x
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To: x
But is that really the response you get?
A great deal of the time...yes. I travel quite a bit with work. Utah, Kansas, New York, Ohio, and Michigan, more recently. I'll admit I am one to discuss just about anything, but invariably I end up in the position of someone wanting me to defend living in the South. People are generally very cordial and I usually enjoy the discussion. Neither side really had a defensible position based on the ethics of our time. The Northern states imported slaves and the southern states purchased them. Both sides owned them for personal use. Both areas had those who really understood that it was wrong, but much like today, as long as "the price was right" for consumer goods most people just ignored it. In today’s United States most people are opposed to things like forced labor, child labor, etc.; that is until faced with paying $100.00 for a pair of tennis shoes made in an industrialized nation with similar standards as us or paying $35.00 for a pair that was made by 9 year olds in Indonesia. When it hits the pocketbook, most people just close their eyes to it. I would assume (people still being people) that in the 1850's most people applied the same "logic" to their purchases.
A great deal of other issues also preceded the Civil War. Mostly dealing with the ever-growing Federal Government assuming more and more unconstitutional authority. Finally it erupted with Lincoln’s election, into the succession of several states. The growing anti-slavery movement saw it's opportunity - the time had come to press the point (a just point I might add). It also served to economically break the back of the newly formed Confederacy. Dual benefits.
Before everyone erupts, I am NOT trying to say that the war had nothing to do with slavery; but on the other hand, saying it was ALL about slavery is equally incorrect.
Now for my position: I think that it was a giant mistake not to abolish slavery with the Constitution. From what I have read, many of the founder despised slavery - but still owned slaves. I have read that the reason for not abolishing it was that one state (South Carolina I think) would not sign the Constitution or participate in the Revolution if slavery was to be abolished. Not wanting to fight the Revolution on two fronts, they failed to abolish it and put the issue off. They did build in some provisions that would eventually have slavery dieing a natural death; the three-fifths rule among them.
I believe in the literal interpretation of Gods Word. In the literal reading we are all related at least from Noah, and back to Adam from that. (Another discussion) Based on this fact no person has more or less inherent worth than anyone else - based on anything.
There are substantial cultural differences between many different segments of our society - race being one of them. I believe that trying to make our nation one culture perpetuates the problem. There is absolutely no reason why different cultures can't live together without hating each other.(Again another discussion)

Some people simply point out that no region can claim perfect righteousness and that good and evil are more mixed in the world.
This was a point that I failed to make. I agree with this point.
37 posted on 02/16/2004 6:37:17 PM PST by GrandEagle
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To: Between the Lines
see #31 and note that there are TODAY more segregated public schools in MA than there are in all of the 13 CSA states COMBINED!

the HQ of the KKK is in OH, which is NOT a dixie state. there are more KKK-cretins in NYC than in all of LA & MS combined.

further, my business partner, who is beautiful,conservative, religious, educated & Jewish is discriminated against all over the north.

there are MANY places in the northeat that i, as a NONwhite can go where she is NOT welcome!

NOBODY in dixie cares what religion you are!

free dixie,sw

38 posted on 02/16/2004 6:43:38 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
northeat=northEAST!

free dixie,sw

39 posted on 02/16/2004 6:45:11 PM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
i'd bet you believed wee willie klintoon about the "hundreds of black churches that burned in Arkansas when i was a boy", too.

Talk to the oher guy Chief. He's the guy who posted a link to all the race riots deaths about a riot in the Confederate/Cherokee state of Oklahoma.

Did any of your "ancestors" drop any bombs on "Little Wall Steet?"

BTW. Get a life.

40 posted on 02/16/2004 7:27:31 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Between the Lines
A shame that no pic or drawing is available.
41 posted on 02/16/2004 7:30:43 PM PST by Ciexyz
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To: U S Army EOD
Ditto that. I saw it with my own eyes in both the North and the South.
42 posted on 02/16/2004 7:31:06 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: GrandEagle
Thanks for the response. Who you talk to makes a difference. There are Northerners who look down on the South, though a lot of it is affluent urbanites looking down on just about anyone who doesn't come from large cities. They don't think any better about those in the rural counties or working-class neighborhoods of their own state. But you will also find a lot of people on line who make Northerners responsible for all the country's problems. I don't think there's much to be said for either dismissive attitude about other parts of the country.

I don't know how to get beyond such ongoing reproaches thrown at one part of the country or another. One thing is to focus on what we can do now, rather than on past animosities. Another is to try to deal with questions of fact and moral judgments separately -- both are important, but each has its own place. I don't think most Americans are hung up on regional conflicts today, though. For better or worse, television and other media have made us one nation.

A country is a little like a team. We each bring different strengths and weaknesses to the enterprise, and hopefully the strengths of one member compensate for the weaknesses of another. Someone may be right today, but that doesn't mean that they were always right or will always be right in the future. The various parts of our country may come into conflict, but on the whole we benefit from our union. That may be hard to see today, because of divisive political issues, but over the long run, it's incontestable.

43 posted on 02/16/2004 7:31:13 PM PST by x
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To: Ditto
Check my #29 post. What was funny was the way this tent we had in town for a movie theater was segregated. The whites sat on one side and the blacks sat on the other side. It had a rope between us. We all would talk back and forth and pass food back and forth to each other. Seems kind of stupid now. But then we all just accepted it.
44 posted on 02/16/2004 7:52:25 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: U S Army EOD
My experience was the city swimming pools where in the "WASP" neighborhood, blacks were accepted, but in the 1st generation immigrant pool, blacks were not tollerated.

It was funny. Kids that were not even citizens yet discriminated against kids whose family dated back 400 years. Go figure.

45 posted on 02/16/2004 8:45:29 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
Would you rather be black in Atlanta, Georgia or Boston, Massachusetts?
46 posted on 02/16/2004 8:52:43 PM PST by cpdiii (Rph, Geologist, Oil Field Trash and proud of it.)
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To: Ditto
That is because most of the Europeans hated everybody but themselves. They still do in some parts of Europe. That is what is so great about this country.
47 posted on 02/16/2004 9:30:38 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
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To: Ditto
you're a fine one to talk about someone needing a life as you are one of the most clueless of FR's unionist fringe.

free dixie,sw

48 posted on 02/17/2004 3:57:37 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: cpdiii
Would you rather be black in Atlanta, Georgia or Boston, Massachusetts?

I have visited both, but I don't know much about Boston or Atlanta. I'll say that in the 50s, I would absolutly pick any Northern city over any Southern one. It wasn't perfect in the North, but there were no "back of the bus" laws either.

BTW. I grew up in an integrated blue collar neighborhood in a Northern blue collar city and played with black kids, went to school and church with them, went through Scouts with them, had dinner at their homes and they had dinner at mine. Yes, there was discrimination. But there was no government imposed segregation that I ever saw in my city or state. The discrimination was in the hearts of individuals, not imposed by politicians.

If you are a conservative, you should understand the difference between how individuals treat their fellow citizens, and government mandating how they treat each other through anti-American segregation laws.

49 posted on 02/17/2004 5:12:28 AM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Arkinsaw
That skit was the funniest thing I've seen on TV in 10 yrs!!! It had me laughing for days!!
50 posted on 02/17/2004 5:23:44 AM PST by Space Wrangler
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