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Bush 'Troubled' by Gay Marriage Issue (RE: San Fran weddings)
Yahoo News ^

Posted on 02/18/2004 9:28:40 AM PST by KantianBurke

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) said Wednesday he was "troubled" by gay weddings in San Francisco and by legal decisions in Massachusetts that could clear the way for same-sex marriage. But he declined to say whether he is any closer to backing a constitutional ban on such vows.

"I have watched carefully what's happening in San Francisco, where licenses were being issued, even though the law states otherwise," Bush said. "I have consistently stated that I'll support law to protect marriage between a man and a woman. Obviously these events are influencing my decision."

"I am watching very carefully, but I am troubled by what I've seen," Bush said.

He didn't answer directly when asked whether he is any closer to endorsing a constitutional ban on same-sex marriages, as conservative groups say the White House has assured them Bush will do.

"I strongly believe marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman," Bush said during an Oval Office session with Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. "I am troubled by activist judges who are defining marriage."

"People need to be involved in this decision," Bush said. "Marriage ought to be defined by the people not by the courts. And I'm watching it carefully."

Gay and lesbian couples from Europe and more than 20 states have lined up outside the ornate San Francisco City Hall since city officials decided to begin marrying same-sex couples six days ago. City officials said 172 couples were married Tuesday, a pace that would bring the total number who have taken vows promising to be "spouses for life" to over 3,000 by Friday.

The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court recently ruled that it is unconstitutional to bar gay couples from marriage. Under the decision, the nation's first legally sanctioned gay marriages are scheduled to begin in mid-May.

Lawmakers are proposing a constitutional amendment that would define marriage as a union between one man and one woman, and the Legislature resumes its deliberations of amendments on March 11.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: California; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: abovetheruleoflaw; anarchy; anarchyinamerica; anarchyincalifornia; blackrobedtyrants; bush; buttwranglers; california; clinton; counterculture; culturejihad; cultureofdeath; culturewar; debauchery; destructionoffamily; felony; fornicating; fudgepacking; gayintoleristas; gaymarriage; gomorrah; goodvsevil; gwb2004; hedonism; hedonist; homosexualagenda; insane; judicialactivism; lawlessness; lawuntothemselves; leftistagenda; leftsagenda; leviticus1822; marriage; oligarchy; outofcontrol; phoneymarriage; poopsex; prisoners; protectfamily; protectmarriage; rebelliousanarchy; relativism; relativist; revolution; romans1; ruleoflaw; sanfrancisco; sf; sodom; sodomy; spiritualbattle; stunt; takecultureback; tyrants; tyrantsagenda; violatemarriagelaw; wagesofsin; westerncivilization; wickedness; worldviewscollide
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Checked and didn't see this posted. Bush's take on the ongoing "marriages" in San Fran. "Troubled?" More like "sticking finger in the wind as there's an election coming up and don't want to be portrayed as a mean old Republican."
1 posted on 02/18/2004 9:28:40 AM PST by KantianBurke
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To: Admin Moderator
Could you add in the remark "RE: San Fran weddings" to the title? Will make clear as to why this is in the breaking news column. Thanks!
2 posted on 02/18/2004 9:33:08 AM PST by KantianBurke (Principles, not blind loyalty)
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To: KantianBurke
This gay marriage thing is an easy issue. I think I have seen 70% among Americans in support of a constitutional ammendment defining marriage.

Notice the media calls it "Banning gay marriage". Its also banning man/beast marriage, man/child marriage and man/object marriage... The ammendment wont say anything about "No man may marry a man or woman marry a woman." It will say "Man/woman allowed...all others need not apply"

3 posted on 02/18/2004 9:34:14 AM PST by smith288 (http://www.ejsmithweb.com/FR/JohnKerry/)
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To: KantianBurke
Its a much bigger problem for democrats. They either have to support gay marriage against the wishes of the majority or support it with the minority.
4 posted on 02/18/2004 9:34:48 AM PST by cripplecreek (you win wars by making the other dumb SOB die for his country)
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To: KantianBurke
I think I have seen 70% among Americans in support of a constitutional ammendment defining marriage.

Actually, I meant to say 70% against gay marriage in principle... 60% for ammendment...my bad.

5 posted on 02/18/2004 9:35:39 AM PST by smith288 (http://www.ejsmithweb.com/FR/JohnKerry/)
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To: KantianBurke
Judges make law, executives interpret law. Its the new American paradigm.
6 posted on 02/18/2004 9:36:15 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: KantianBurke; little jeremiah; EdReform; scripter
"Troubled" in the title is a fair word. I just heard the President's voice. His tone struck me as seriously concerned, reflective, ready to act. Almost ominous.
7 posted on 02/18/2004 9:38:49 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of it!!)
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To: KantianBurke
I don't think that's his take on it at all. He's simply letting it "float". Let SF embarrass themselves, then the state of California. Americans want a constitutional ammendment and he knows it. No need to rush to judgment on this one.
8 posted on 02/18/2004 9:39:08 AM PST by sarasota
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To: jwalsh07
No, judges make law, executives implement what they think the judges meant. Legislators just sit around, look pretty, "investigate" something, and collect a paycheck.
9 posted on 02/18/2004 9:40:39 AM PST by bobjam
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To: KantianBurke
Talk is cheap!!

Bush is doing a good job of talking about the issues without taking any actions, he doesn't want to upset the Log Cabin Republicans who voted for him in 2000.

Here are some quotes from Log Cabin executive director Patrick Guerriero in response to the President's State of the Union address:

George W. Bush was elected in 2000 by bringing Americans together. State of the Union addresses should be used to unite all Americans around the nation's highest priorities. Americans are threatened by terrorism and job uncertainty - not gay and lesbian families,"

"Log Cabin Republicans have stood with this President in the war on terror. Log Cabin supports the President on cutting taxes for American families and expanding efforts to combat HIV/AIDS at home and abroad."

"The mission of Log Cabin is greater than one President or one issue. Last night's speech shows us how much work remains in our effort to build a more inclusive GOP. To be the majority party, the GOP must be built on a foundation of freedom, fairness and equality---for all Americans,"

Log Cabin Republicans is the nation's largest gay Republican organization, with state and local chapters nationwide, a full-time Washington office and a federal political action committee.

Log Cabin Republicans - http://www.lcr.org/
10 posted on 02/18/2004 9:41:52 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: bobjam
Not in San Francisco, The executive there, MAyor Whateverhisnameis, interpreted the constitution to mean that he could break the laws of California and issue marriage licenses to homosexual couples.

Any word on how he interprets the Ca Constitution vis a vis polygamy and polyamory?

11 posted on 02/18/2004 9:43:19 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: KantianBurke
I think you're jumping to judgment on this. Do you really think President Bush is only concerned about getting reelected? I don't believe that and I hope you don't either.
12 posted on 02/18/2004 9:44:11 AM PST by rj45mis
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To: bobjam
People break the law, and flaunt the law breaking, and some look, oh, just so troubled! Bush loses my vote, right here.
If he can do no better than this, he is just impotent. Where have the real men gone?
13 posted on 02/18/2004 9:44:24 AM PST by tessalu
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: KantianBurke
Bush troubled? Where did he get that phrase ... Senator Orrin (no balls) Hatch?
15 posted on 02/18/2004 9:48:00 AM PST by BluH2o
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To: tessalu
"Bush loses my vote, right here."

and just who will you vote for...Archey Bunker?
16 posted on 02/18/2004 9:49:02 AM PST by rj45mis
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To: tessalu
People break the law, and flaunt the law breaking, and some look, oh, just so troubled! Bush loses my vote, right here. If he can do no better than this, he is just impotent. Where have the real men gone?

This is a state issue. What do you want him to do? Bomb San Francisco.

But you keep on posting, just shows how impotent your brain is.

17 posted on 02/18/2004 9:49:07 AM PST by Dane
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To: smith288
Yep, you are right, what is next on horizon. well all that comes to my mind is pedophila. After all there are already some groups organized to support that.
18 posted on 02/18/2004 9:49:26 AM PST by mel
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To: KantianBurke
George W. Bush on Sodomy

In an interview with Diane Sawyer on gay unions, President Bush said, “The position of this administration is that whatever legal arrangements people want to make, they’re allowed to make, so long as it’s embraced by the state or at the state level.” In other words, if state Supreme Court judges want “civil unions” like the Vermont statute, that state should be allowed to have it. We should not be surprised by the judicial tyranny that threatens to force gay marriages, “gay civil unions,” and a new state religion, atheistic humanism, upon us – we have supported and voted for men such as President Bush who appointed these pro-abortion, pro-homosexual judicial activists. The same family advocacy groups that condemn statements of President Bush like this that undermine traditional marriage supported him in 2000 and will probably support him in 2004.

President Bush has stated that he has no qualms about hiring homosexuals, and he has proven it. He has appointed open homosexuals to high government positions at a rate that makes Bill Clinton look like a homophobe! In December of 1999, when President Bush was Governor of Texas, he appointed a supporter of the Houston Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus and also of Planned Parenthood, Martha Hill Jamison, to the 164th District Court in Houston. Very early in his tenure as President, G.W. Bush appointed a pro-homosexual, pro-abortion candidate to the Federal bench. Early in 2000, President Bush attempted to purge the Republican platform of planks against homosexual marriage and homosexuals in the military. On April 9, 2001, he appointed a renown homosexual activist, Scott Evertz, to the Office of National AIDS Policy, which was the first appointment of an open homosexual to this federal position. On June 18, 2002, he transferred Evertz to direct U.S. Policy on Global Fund for AIDS and appointed another homosexual activist to take over as new director of the Office of National AIDS Policy.

On September 18, 2001, President Bush appointed a homosexual activist to be Ambassador to Romania at the protest of the Romanian government. Furthermore, President Bush authorized a Clinton policy that allows an “unmarried partner” of a foreign aid worker to be given the same status as a married spouse. So the ambassador’s homosexual lover accompanies him to official government functions, travels with and resides with him on the taxpayers’ tab. On August 22, 2001, President Bush appointed an open homosexual to the U.S. Commission on Fine Arts.25 He presided over the appointment of another open homosexual to oversee the choice of civilian personnel at the Pentagon. The Bush administration posted a job for a "gay and lesbian program specialist" at the Department of Agriculture. On November 1, 2001, President Bush appointed an open homosexual to the State Department as an arms control advisor, which was the first appointment of an openly gay person to a senior arms control post. President Bush insisted that openly homosexual Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona be given a prominent speaking role at the Republican National Convention. On January 25, 2002, President Bush appointed many openly gay Republicans to the President’s Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS.

G.W. Bush hired running mate Dick Cheney’s openly gay daughter to be a consultant for him during his campaign. “The governor believes Mr. Cheney has a wonderful family,” a Bush spokesman said. “Being gay or lesbian is not a liability in this campaign. The governor embraces both of Mr. Cheney’s daughters and will invite them to campaign with him.” Dick Cheney openly promotes “same-sex unions.”

On Dec. 21, 2001, President Bush and the Republican Congress passed historic legislation extending family health benefits to Washington, D.C., employee's "partners" and also gave unfettered adoption rights to D.C. homosexual couples. He refused to nullify a 1998 Clinton executive order prohibiting discrimination against homosexuals in the federal workforce. He signed a bill allowing death benefits to be paid to the “domestic partners” of firefighters and police officers who die in the line of duty. This was the first time that a federal death benefit was granted to same-sex couples. He has increased funding for homosexual propaganda campaigns under the guise of health education programs. He allowed the Office of Personnel Management, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Justice, to openly celebrate “gay pride.” On April 18, 2002, at the annual meeting of the Log Cabin Republicans, the White House hosted a first-ever policy briefing for gay Republicans, featuring senior administration advisors. On June 24, 2002, President Bush signed the Father Mychal Judge Act, in honor of the openly gay fire department chaplain who died at the World Trade Center on 9-11. This act allows public safety officers killed in the line of duty to assign federal benefits to designated beneficiaries, including same-sex partners. It is the first such federal law which allows such benefits to be granted.

President Bush publicly praised the Metropolian Community Church of Los Angeles on occasion of its 35th anniversary, a church that performs 6,000 “gay marriages” annually. In his letter of congratulations, President Bush said, “By encouraging the celebration of faith and sharing of God's love and boundless mercy, churches like yours put hope in people's hearts and a sense of purpose in their lives. This milestone provides an opportunity to reflect on your years of service and to rejoice in God's faithfulness to your congregation."

George Bush joined a horde of homosexual activists in maligning and mischaracterizing a Christian man, Jerry Thacker, he had appointed to the Presidential Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS. Mr. Thacker’s wife acquired the disease from a blood transfusion during delivery, and when she and her infant son succumbed to the disease, Jerry Thacker, now HIV positive, devoted himself to ministering the transforming love of God to those dying of AIDS. He offered forgiveness and redemption to homosexuals through the grace of Jesus Christ and reparative counseling. Presidential spokesman Ari Fleischer said of Thacker, "The views that he holds are far, far removed from what the president believes." Thacker withdrew from the appointment after President Bush and the homosexual smear machine began to denigrate and verbally assault him for his beliefs.

George Bush’s home church in Texas is Highland Park United Methodist Church in Dallas. This church welcomes impenitent homosexuals as members. President Bush said he reads the Bible daily, but he confessed to the New York Times, “I don’t necessarily believe every single word is literally true.” About the evolution-creation debate, he said, “The verdict is still out on how God created the earth. I don’t use the Bible as necessarily a way to predict the findings of science.” In other words, Darwinism may be true according to President Bush. When the Bible and a scientific consensus are at odds, whom do you think that George Bush believes?
19 posted on 02/18/2004 9:50:05 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: jgrubbs
No source, no link, in your reply #18. But what the hey Jgrubbs you like the homosexual activists have your own agenda to push.
20 posted on 02/18/2004 9:54:51 AM PST by Dane
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To: jgrubbs
No source, no link, in your reply #18.

Excuse me, the above should say reply #19.

21 posted on 02/18/2004 9:56:07 AM PST by Dane
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To: tessalu
People break the law, and flaunt the law breaking, and some look, oh, just so troubled! Bush loses my vote, right here. If he can do no better than this, he is just impotent. Where have the real men gone?

Your anger is misplaced, the governator is the chief executive in California.

22 posted on 02/18/2004 9:56:47 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Dane
No source, no link, in your reply #18. But what the hey Jgrubbs you like the homosexual activists have your own agenda to push.

I can give you links to the sources of anything in the post that you question. I didn't want to clutter the post with numerous links and footnotes. The only agenda I "push" is returning to the "limited government" that our founding fathers set in place, and educating both politicians and voters on the US Constitution. If this can be accomplished by Republican candidates I have and will continue to vote for them, if not I will vote for the candidate that will stand up for the US Constitution regardless of their political party affiliation.

Both partisan Democrats and partisan Republicans are so hungry for power that they forgot why they supposed to be in power. Both the politicians and the votes take an oath to uphold the US Constitution, but most don't.

23 posted on 02/18/2004 10:01:56 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: KantianBurke
Gay and lesbian couples from Europe and more than 20 states have lined up outside the ornate San Francisco City Hall

From the US and Europe, and that's all there is? It couldn't have cost that much to keep them in the mental institutions!
AIDs funding and tolerance training are costing more than their care in the nut houses would!

All they could round up was a small handful of sexually dysfunctional freaks, and they demand the entire world change to accommodate them? WTF'n Kerry??

I'll bet there are more environmentalists having sex with knot holes in trees than there are butt humpers in SF!

24 posted on 02/18/2004 10:02:14 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: Dane
Here are both the source's and the links for this information:

“President Bush’s Interview with Diane Sawyer”, Log Cabin Republicans of Washington, 12-17-03, http://www.logcabinwa.com/archive/200312171214.shtml

“CWA Warns: Presidential Embrace of Civil Unions Undermines Pro-Family Effort to Save Marriage,” Concerned Women for America – Media, 12-17-03, http://www.cwfa.org/articles/5010/MEDIA/family/index.htm

Allie Martin, “Bush’s Comments Regarding Homosexual Leaders Rankle Pro-Family Leaders,” Agape Press, 12-18-03, http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/12/182003a.asp

“Confronting the Pride Divide,” The Village Voice, 9-7-99.

Susan Feeney, “Bush’s Openly Gay Appointments Bother Conservatives”, The Dallas Morning News, http://www.logcabinwa.com/archive/199910221235.shtml

Republican National Coalition for Life, 4-24-00

“President Bush Expands AIDS Policy Team,” Log Cabin Republicans, 7-18-02, http://www.lcr.org/press/20020718.asp, also http://www.lcr.org/timeline.asp

“Post-Election 2000,” Log Cabin Republicans, http://www.lcr.org/timeline.asp

“Post-Election 2000,” Log Cabin Republicans, http://www.lcr.org/timeline.asp

“Post-Election 2000,” Log Cabin Republicans, http://www.lcr.org/timeline.asp

“U.S. Rep Jim Kolbe to Address Republican National Convention,” PR Newswire, 8-1-00, http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m4PRN/2000_August_1/63805205/p1/article.jhtml

“Bush Asks Homosexual Congressman to Speak,”World Net Daily, 8-1-00, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15435

“President Bush Appoints New Members to HIV/AIDS Advisory Council,” Log Cabin Republicans, 1-25-02, http://www.logcabinwa.com/archive/200201251620.shtml

DrudgeReport.com, 7-25-02

“Freedom Means Freedom for Everybody,” Independent Gay Forum, 10-19-00, http://www.indegayforum.org/authors/miller/miller27.html

Mike Allen, “Law Extends Benefits to Same Sex Couples,” Washington Post, 6-26-02, http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A44912-2002Jun25?language=printer

“Bush Advances Gay Agenda,” Family Policy Network, http://www.familypolicy.net/features/bush-gays.shtml

“Post-Election 2000,” Log Cabin Republicans, http://www.lcr.org/timeline.asp

Richard Goldstein, “Bush’s Gay Gambit,” The Village Voice, 7-17-02, http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0229/goldstein.php, also http://www.johncarroll.info/Heroes.html

“Bush Cheers ‘Gay’ Church After ‘Marriage Week’,” World Net Daily, 11-12-03, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35539

Robert Knight, “Anatomy of a Smear: How ‘Gay’ Activists, the Media and the White House Shredded Jerry Thacker,” Concerned Women for America, Culture and Family Institute, 2- 6-03, http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=3266&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

“Bush: Christianity Central to His Life”, Religion Today, 1-26-00
25 posted on 02/18/2004 10:04:15 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: jgrubbs
It sounds like you are obsessed with President Bush. I will say it again, we can vote him out of office and install Kerry or Edwards or Hillary and get something much worse, or we can write in one of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dr. James Kennedy, or someone else who will force Americans to daily recite the living Word of God.
26 posted on 02/18/2004 10:04:33 AM PST by rj45mis
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To: tessalu
Bush loses my vote, right here.

RIGHT HERE? He loses your vote because of this social issue that has been festering for the past several years?

I think you need to take a deep breath and think about the big picture. I personally don't believe it is ever wise to throw away your vote, no matter how angry you may be at the preferred candidate. No matter what, a vote against Bush will be a vote for the Democrat candidate. This is how Clinton got elected in '92, and again in '96.

Besides, I don't believe Bush can do anything anyway unless you want him to send in the National Guard, and this clearly is not a federal issue. It is a California State issue.

27 posted on 02/18/2004 10:04:59 AM PST by SaveTheChief
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To: Dane
This was compiled, not by myself, but by by Dr. Patrick Johnston, I copied it along with the links to the sources from his full article found online at the following URL:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3114.html
28 posted on 02/18/2004 10:05:52 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: jgrubbs
Log Cabin Republicans is the nation's largest gay Republican organization, with state and local chapters nationwide, a full-time Washington office and a federal political action committee.

Until they manage to destroy them from within. Then they'll be gone.

They want to destroy it's moral authority, just like they did the Catholic Church. There, they weren't just claiming to be Republicans, they were actually claiming to be men ordained by god!

29 posted on 02/18/2004 10:07:29 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: KantianBurke
Keep in mind that these aren't real marriages. They will be invalidated by a court...somewhere.
30 posted on 02/18/2004 10:08:12 AM PST by GSWarrior
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To: rj45mis
...or we can write in one of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dr. James Kennedy, or someone else who will force Americans to daily recite the living Word of God.

Actually I'm voting for Michael Peroutka, and no he won't "force Americans to daily recite the living Word of God". Your showing your bitterness towards Christians by that statement.

I would vote for Thomas Jefferson, who was not a Christian, if he were alive today, before I would vote for George W. Bush.

31 posted on 02/18/2004 10:10:53 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: Dane
What do you want him to do? Bomb San Francisco.

Well....nothing wrong with a little brainstorming. We've got to put all the options on the table, even if they are a little extreme. LOL.

32 posted on 02/18/2004 10:11:05 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: mel
Yep, you are right, what is next on horizon. well all that comes to my mind is pedophilia. After all there are already some groups organized to support that.

NAMBLA will be able to legally adopt their very own little sex toys.

Because of the Texas sodomy law, who can arrest them? It's in the privacy of their own bedroom, remember?

33 posted on 02/18/2004 10:13:55 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: jgrubbs
All your sources are either opinion pieces or from sources that promote an agenda(WND as one example) and if that agenda is not followed 100% by Bush than he is the anti-Christ dagnabbit.

What part of Bush's previous quotes of saying that marriage is bewteen a man and a woman don't you understand.

34 posted on 02/18/2004 10:14:11 AM PST by Dane
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To: jgrubbs
Actually I'm voting for Michael Peroutka,

BTW, what would Mr. Peroutka do about what is going on now in San Francisco.

We will probably never know since all Mr. Peroutka and his 0.01% followers do is rant that Bush isn't conservative enough.

35 posted on 02/18/2004 10:18:39 AM PST by Dane
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To: KantianBurke
Genesis 19

Sodom's Depravity

Two Evil Cities Destroyed

1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

2And he said, "Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way." And they said, "No, but we will spend the night in the open square."

3But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house.

5And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."

6So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him,

7and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!

8See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof."

9And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them." So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.

10But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

23The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.

24Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.

25So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

36 posted on 02/18/2004 10:20:48 AM PST by biblewonk (I must try to answer all bible questions.)
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To: biblewonk
And they said, "Stand back!"
Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as an evil conservative homophobe ,now we will deal worse with you than with them and charge you with hate crimes and hate speech legislation."
So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the doors of San Francisco.
37 posted on 02/18/2004 10:29:08 AM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: jgrubbs
Well done, jgrubbs....to your #19 and #25 posts. Thanks.
38 posted on 02/18/2004 10:32:17 AM PST by Mean Maryjean
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To: Mean Maryjean
Thank you, I see in your profile that you are from my homestate of VA. I was born in Fredericksburg. I too love history, spent my honeymoon in Shenandoah Valley, and my wife and I took one day to go on a chronological tour of the Northern VA battlefields.

You can still be a history "teacher" to you family and friends!
39 posted on 02/18/2004 10:39:03 AM PST by jgrubbs
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To: Dane
Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.

I see a strong parallel between the foolish things the President has done with respect to ILLEGAL ALIENS as with GAY RIGHTS (and by extension, GAY MARRAIGE).

President Bush, while personally moral and a nice guy, nevertheless helped opened the floodgates for further illegal immigration with his & Rove's assinine plan for regularization/legalization for foreign illegals.

Bush also met with the disgraceful "AUSTIN 12" Homosexual G.O.P. activists in Austin, Texas in 2000, pandering to them to get the vote, and trying to be all things to all people. He was "reasonable" and "compassionate", opening dialogue with them, and being 'incluuuuuusive' and for 'diverrrrrsity'.

Now what the hell do you expect four years later? The President should have known that those he met with, probably to a man or to a woman (or to a man-boy as the case may be) supported GAY MARRIAGE.

I say, DONT ACCEPT Gay Group endorsements or overtures, lobbying or otherwise;, like Bob Dole, DONT ACCEPT their money or their influence.

What part of the compassionate The Austin 12-Governor Bush 2000 Austin, Texas Meeting and it's overall impact do you fail to comprehend?

40 posted on 02/18/2004 10:41:16 AM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Another vote here for Bush, only IF Congress ends up defeating his illegal immigration amnesty law)
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To: rj45mis; jgrubbs
It sounds like you are obsessed with President Bush. I will say it again, we can vote him out of office and install Kerry or Edwards or Hillary and get something much worse, or we can write in one of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dr. James Kennedy, or someone else who will force Americans to daily recite the living Word of God.

What a lame reply! That's NOT what the fella is saying at all. Why is that every time someone tells the TRUTH about President Bush--the REALITY of President Bush--that person gets "slapped" and then gets thrown at him the standard: "we can vote him out of office and install Kerry or Edwards or Hillary and get something much worse..."

That justification is getting real old. I personally am going to vote my conscious...not vote "just to keep a democrat out of office. THAT'S what the Dems are espousing..."vote Kerry, the one most likely to beat GWB." No thanks--as for me, I'll vote for the one who comes close to fitting what I'd like to see for America.

41 posted on 02/18/2004 10:41:26 AM PST by Mean Maryjean
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To: jgrubbs
It was my understanding that Log Cabine Republicans are not in favor of gay "marriage", only gay unions.
42 posted on 02/18/2004 10:45:03 AM PST by Integrityrocks
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To: KantianBurke
Bush's take on the ongoing "marriages" in San Fran. "Troubled?"

Could he be troubled by the ILLEGALS? Nah. But have a christian say something about a Muslim then you've crossed the line, right GW?

43 posted on 02/18/2004 10:45:32 AM PST by Digger
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To: SaveTheChief
It is a federal issue. It has always been a federal issue because that is where teh homosexual groups have wanted it. It has always always been about getting one state to accept homosexual marriage and use FFC. Always. Human rights coalition has activly litigated it with that in mind.

You may wistfully want this to be a state issue, but that illusion is looooooong gone. It is federal and requires the FMA solution.
44 posted on 02/18/2004 10:52:10 AM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: AmericanInTokyo
I agree with your post #40. You're right, the pandering is no surprise because we have already seen it in its essence in regard to illegal immigration.
45 posted on 02/18/2004 11:04:43 AM PST by MissouriForBush (Insert "Was" Because of Disastrous Illegal Immigration Non-Plan)
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To: KantianBurke; Barnacle; Salem; Dubya; MeekOneGOP

""I am watching very carefully, but I am troubled by what I've seen," Bush said.

Yes, yes, and yes. So are we Mr. President, so are we . .

Mass. Supreme Court Rules - Gay Couples have the Right to Marry

=====================================================================================================================================================

Throughout history, the major civilizations major religions condemned homosexuality.1 Until 1961 homosexual acts were illegal throughout America.

Gays claim that the "prevailing attitude toward homosexuals in the U.S. and many other countries is revulsion and hostility....for acts and desires not harmful to anyone."3 The American Psychological Association and the American Public Health Association assured the U.S. Supreme Court in 1986 that "no significant data show that engaging in...oral and anal sex, results in mental or physical dysfunction."4

What Homosexuals Do

The major surveys on homosexual behavior are summarized below. Two things stand out 1) homosexuals behave similarly world-over, and 2) as Harvard Medical Professor, Dr. William Haseltine,33 noted in 1993, the "changes in sexual behavior that have been reported to have occurred in some groups have proved, for the most part, to be transient. For example, bath houses and sex clubs in many cities have either reopened or were never closed."

Homosexual Activities (in %)

		US16 US13  US    US18 Denmark20 US19  London27  Sydney/London26                                                            Canada25                                                      
		1940s1977 83/84  1983  1984   1983    1985       1991                       
		ever ever  ever in yr in yr  in mo   in mo   last 6mo                                                                                  
oral/penile       83   99  100/99  99    86             67                 
anal/penile       68   91   93/98  95    92     95     100                 
oral/anal         59   83   92/92  63           69      89       55/65       
urine sex         10   23    29/                                              
fisting/toys      22   41/47 34                                       
fecal sex-eating        4     8                                                       
enemas        	       11    11                                               
torture sex       22   37    37                                              
public/orgy sex   61   76    88                                               
sex with minors   37   23    24/                                          

ORAL SEX Homosexuals fellate almost all of their sexual contacts (and ingest semen from about half of these). Semen contains many of the germs carried in the blood. Because of this, gays who practice oral sex verge on consuming raw human blood, with all its medical risks. Since the penis often has tiny lesions (and often will have been in unsanitary places such as a rectum), individuals so involved may become infected with hepatitis A or gonorrhea (and even HIV and hepatitis B). Since many contacts occur between strangers (70% of gays estimated that they had had sex only once with over half of their partners17,27), and gays average somewhere between 106 and 1105 different partners/year, the potential for infection is considerable.

RECTAL SEX Surveys indicate that about 90% of gays have engaged in rectal intercourse, and about two-thirds do it regularly. In a 6-month long study of daily sexual diaries,3 gays averaged 110 sex partners and 68 rectal encounters a year.

Rectal sex is dangerous. During rectal intercourse the rectum becomes a mixing bowl for 1) saliva and its germs and/or an artificial lubricant, 2) the recipient's own feces, 3) whatever germs, infections or substances the penis has on it, and 4) the seminal fluid of the inserter. Since sperm readily penetrate the rectal wall (which is only one cell thick) causing immunologic damage, and tearing or bruising of the anal wall is very common during anal/penile sex, these substances gain almost direct access to the blood stream. Unlike heterosexual intercourse (in which sperm cannot penetrate the multilayered vagina and no feces are present),7 rectal intercourse is probably the most sexually efficient way to spread hepatitis B, HIV syphilis and a host of other blood-borne diseases.

Tearing or ripping of the anal wall is especially likely with "fisting," where the hand and arm is inserted into the rectum. It is also common when "toys" are employed (homosexual lingo for objects which are inserted into the rectum--bottles, carrots, even gerbils8). The risk of contamination and/or having to wear a colostomy bag from such "sport" is very real. Fisting was apparently so rare in Kinsey's time that he didn't think to talk about it. By 1977, well over a third of gays admitted to doing it. The rectum was not designed to accommodate the fist, and those who do so can find themselves consigned to diapers for life.

FECAL SEX About 80% of gays (see Table) admit to licking and/or inserting their tongues into the anus of partners and thus ingesting medically significant amounts of feces. Those who eat or wallow in it are probably at even greater risk. In the diary study,5 70% of the gays had engaged in this activity--half regularly over 6 months. Result? --the "annual incidence of hepatitis A in...homosexual men was 22 percent, whereas no heterosexual men acquired hepatitis A." In 1992,26 it was noted that the proportion of London gays engaging in oral/anal sex had not declined since 1984.

While the body has defenses against fecal germs, exposure to the fecal discharge of dozens of strangers each year is extremely unhealthy. Ingestion of human waste is the major route of contracting hepatitis A and the enteric parasites collectively known as the Gay Bowel Syndrome. Consumption of feces has also been implicated in the transmission of typhoid fever,9 herpes, and cancer.27 About 10% of gays have eaten or played with [e.g., enemas, wallowing in feces]. The San Francisco Department of Public Health saw 75,000 patients per year, of whom 70 to 80 per cent are homosexual men....An average of 10 per cent of all patients and asymptomatic contacts reported...because of positive fecal samples or cultures for amoeba, giardia, and shigella infections were employed as food handlers in public establishments; almost 5 per cent of those with hepatitis A were similarly employed."10 In 1976, a rare airborne scarlet fever broke out among gays and just missed sweeping through San Francisco.10 The U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported that 29% of the hepatitis A cases in Denver, 66% in New York, 50% in San Francisco, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal and 26% in Melbourne in the first six months of 1991 were among gays.11 A 1982 study "suggested that some transmission from the homosexual group to the general population may have occurred."12

URINE SEX About 10% of Kinsey's gays reported having engaged in "golden showers" [drinking or being splashed with urine]. In the largest survey of gays ever conducted,13 23% admitted to urine-sex. In the largest random survey of gays,6 29% reported urine-sex. In a San Francisco study of 655 gays,14 only 24% claimed to have been monogamous in the past year. Of these monogamous gays, 5% drank urine, 7% practiced "fisting," 33% ingested feces via anal/oral contact, 53% swallowed semen, and 59% received semen in their rectum during the previous month.

OTHER GAY SEX PRACTICES

SADOMASOCHISM as the Table indicates, a large minority of gays engage in torture for sexual fun. Sex with minors 25% of white gays17 admitted to sex with boys 16 or younger as adults. In a 9-state study,30 33% of the 181 male, and 22% of the 18 female teachers caught molesting students did so homosexually (though less than 3% of men and 2% of women engage in homosexuality31). Depending on the study, the percent of gays reporting sex in public restrooms ranged from 14%16 to 41%13 to 66%,6 9%16, 60%13 and 67%5 reported sex in gay baths; 64%16 and 90%18 said that they used illegal drugs.

Fear of AIDS may have reduced the volume of gay sex partners, but the numbers are prodigious by any standard. Morin15 reported that 824 gays had lowered their sex-rate from 70 different partners/yr. in 1982 to 50/yr. by 1984. McKusick14 reported declines from 76/yr. to 47/yr. in 1985. In Spain32 the average was 42/yr. in 1989.

Medical Consequences of Homosexual Sex

Death and disease accompany promiscuous and unsanitary sexual activity. 70%25 to 78%x,13 of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion with intestinal parasites (worms, flukes, amoeba) ranged from 25%18 to 39%19 to 59%.20 As of 1992, 83% of U.S. AIDS in whites had occurred in gays.21 The Seattle sexual diary study3? reported that gays had, on a yearly average:

  1. fellated 108 men and swallowed semen from 48;
  2. exchanged saliva with 96;
  3. experienced 68 penile penetrations of the anus; and
  4. ingested fecal material from 19.

No wonder 10% came down with hepatitis B and 7% contracted hepatitis A during the 6-month study.

Effects on the Lifespan

Smokers and drug addicts don't live as long as non-smokers or non-addicts, so we consider smoking and narcotics abuse harmful. The typical life-span of homosexuals suggests that their activities are more destructive than smoking nd as dangerous as drugs.

Obituaries numbering 6,516 from 16 U.S. homosexual journals over the past 12 years were compared to a large sample of obituaries from regular newspapers.23 The obituaries from the regular newspapers were similar to U.S. averages for longevity; the medium age of death of married men was 75, and 80% of them died old (age 65 or older). For unmarried or divorced men the median age of death was 57, and 32% of them died old. Married women averaged age 79 at death; 85% died old. Unmarried and divorced women averaged age 71, and 60% of them died old.

The median age of death for homosexuals, however, was virtually the same nationwide--and, overall, less than 2% survived to old age. If AIDS was the cause of death, the median age was 39. For the 829 gays who died of something other than AIDS, the median age of death was 42, and 9% died old. The 163 lesbians had a median age of death of 44, and 20% died old.

Two and eight-tenths percent (2.8%) of gays died violently. They were 116 times more apt to be murdered; 24 times more apt to commit suicide; and had a traffic-accident death-rate 18 times the rate of comparably-aged white males. Heart attacks, cancer and liver failure were exceptionally common. Twenty percent of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident--a rate 487 times higher than that of white females aged 25-44. The age distribution of samples of homosexuals in the scientific literature from 1989 to 1992 suggests a similarly shortened life-span.

The Gay Legacy

Homosexuals rode into the dawn of sexual freedom and returned with a plague that gives every indication of destroying most of them. Those who treat AIDS patients are at great risk, not only from HIV infection, which as of 1992 involved over 100 health care workers,21 but also from TB and new strains of other diseases.24 Those who are housed with AIDS patients are also at risk.24 Those who are housed with AIDS patients are also at risk.24 Dr. Max Essex, chair of the Harvard AIDS Institute, warned congress in 1992 that "AIDS has already led to other kinds of dangerous epidemics...If AIDS is not eliminated, other new lethal microbes will emerge, and neither safe sex nor drug free practices will prevent them."28 At least 8, and perhaps as many as 30 29 patients had been infected with HIV by health care workers as of 1992.

The Biological Swapmeet

The typical sexual practices of homosexuals are a medical horror story --imagine exchanging saliva, feces, semen and/or blood with dozens of different men each year. Imagine drinking urine, ingesting feces and experiencing rectal trauma on a regular basis. Often these encounters occur while the participants are drunk, high, and/or in an orgy setting. Further, many of them occur in extremely unsanitary places (bathrooms, dirty peep shows), or, because homosexuals travel so frequently, in other parts of the world.

Every year, a quarter or more of homosexuals visit another country.20 Fresh American germs get taken to Europe, Africa and Asia. And fresh pathogens from these continents come here. Foreign homosexuals regularly visit the U.S. and participate in this biological swapmeet.

The Pattern of Infection

Unfortunately the danger of these exchanges does not merely affect homosexuals. Travelers carried so many tropical diseases to New York City that it had to institute a tropical disease center, and gays carried HIV from New York City to the rest of the world.27 Most of the 6,349 Americans who got AIDS from contaminated blood as of 1992, received it from homosexuals and most of the women in California who got AIDS through heterosexual activity got it from men who engaged in homosexual behavior.23 The rare form of airborne scarlet fever that stalked San Francisco in 1976 also started among homosexuals.10

Genuine Compassion

Society is legitimately concerned with health risks-- they impact our taxes and everyone's chances of illness and injury. Because we care about them, smokers are discouraged from smoking by higher insurance premiums, taxes on cigarettes and bans against smoking in public. These social pressures cause many to quit. They likewise encourage non-smokers to stay non-smokers.

Homosexuals are sexually troubled people engaging in dangerous activities. Because we care about them and those tempted to join them, it is important that we neither encourage nor legitimize such a destructive lifestyle.


References

1. Karlen A. SEXUALITY And HOMOSEXUALITY. NY Norton, 1971.

2. Pines B. BACK TO BASICS. NY Morrow, 1982, p. 211.

3. Weinberg G. SOCIETY AND THE HEALTHY HOMOSEXUAL. NY St. Martin's, 1972, preface.

4. Amici curiae brief, in Bowers v. Hardwick, 1986.

5. Corey L. & Holmes, K.K. Sexual transmission of Hepatitis A in homosexual men. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1980302435- 38.

6. Cameron P et al Sexual orientation and sexually transmitted disease. "Nebraska Medical Journal," 198570292-99; Effect of homosexuality upon public health and social order "Psychological Reports," 1989, 64, 1167-79.

7. Manligit, G.W. et al Chronic immune stimulation by sperm alloan- tigens. "Journal of the American Medical Association," 1984251 237-38.

8. Cecil Adams, "The Straight Dope," THE READER (Chicago, 3/28/86) [Adams writes authoritatively on counter-culture material, his column is carried in many alternative newspapers across the U.S. and Canada].

9. Dritz, S. & Braff. Sexually transmitted typhoid fever. "New England Journal of Medicine," 19772961359-60.

10. Dritz, S. Medical aspects of homosexuality. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1980302463-4.

11. CDC Hepatitis A among homosexual men --United States, Canada, and Australia. MMWR 199241155-64.

12. Christenson B. et al. An epidemic outbreak of hepatitis A among homosexual men in Stockholm, "American Journal of Epidemiology," 1982115599-607.

13. Jay, K. & Young, A. THE GAY REPORT. NY Summit, 1979.

14. McKusick, L. et al AIDS and sexual behaviors reported by gay men in San Francisco, "American Journal of Public Health," 1985 75493- 96.

15. USA Today 11/21/84.

16. Gebhard, P. & Johnson, A. THE KINSEY DATA. NY Saunders, 1979.

17. Bell, A. & Weinberg, M. HOMOSEXUALITIES. NY Simon & Schuster, 1978.

18. Jaffee, H. et al. National case-control study of Kaposi's sarcoma. "Annals Of Internal Medicine," 198399145-51.

19. Quinn, T. C. et al. The polymicrobial origin of intestinal infection in homosexual men. "New England Journal of Medicine," 1983309576-82.

20. Biggar, R. J. Low T-lymphocyte ratios in homosexual men. "Journal Of The American Medical Association," 19842511441-46; "Wall Street Journal," 7/18/91, B1.

21. CDC HIV/AIDS SURVEILLANCE, February 1993.

22. Chu, S. et al. AIDS in bisexual men in the U.S. "American Journal Of Public Health," 199282220-24.

23. Cameron, P., Playfair, W. & Wellum, S. The lifespan of homo- sexuals. Paper presented at Eastern Psychological Association Convention, April 17, 1993.

24. Dooley, W.W. et al. Nosocomial transmission of tuberculosis in a hospital unit for HIV-invected patients. "Journal of the American Medical Association," 19922672632-35.

25. Schechter, M.T. et al. Changes in sexual behavior and fear of AIDS. "Lancet," 198411293.

26. Elford, J. et al. Kaposi's sarcoma and insertive rimming. "Lancet," 1992339938.

27. Beral, V. et al. Risk of Kaposi's sarcoma and sexual practices associated with faecal contact in homosexual or bisexual men with AIDS. "Lancet," 1992339632-35.

28. Testimony before House Health & Environment Subcommittee, 2/24/92.

29. Ciesielski, C. et al. Transmission of human immunodeficiency virus in a dental practice. "Annals of Internal Medicine, 1992116 798-80; CDC Announcement Houston Post, 8/7/92.

30. Rubin, S. "Sex Education Teachers Who Sexually Abuse Students." 24th International Congress on Psychology, Sydney, Australia, August 1988.

31. Cameron, P. & Cameron, K. Prevalence of homosexuality. "Psychology Reports," 1993, in press; Melbye, M. & Biggar, R.J. Interactions between persons at risk for AIDS and the general population in Denmark. "American Journal of Epidemiology," 1992135593-602.

32. Rodriguez-Pichardo, A. et al. Sexually transmitted diseases in homosexual males in Seville, Spain, "Geniourin Medicina," 1990 66;423-427.

33. AIDS Prognosis, Washington Times, 2/13/93, C1.



46 posted on 02/18/2004 11:06:40 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S.A. - - United We Stand - - Divided We Fall - - Support Our Troops - - Vote BUSH)
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To: xzins
GOOD! I hope that you are right! I will continue praying that President will make the right decision on this and act quickly and he has to know that we are all supporting him and will continue to, my goodness he has a loyal base of voters here.

47 posted on 02/18/2004 11:11:58 AM PST by stopem
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To: Mean Maryjean
MM, you can call it what you want, but the bottom line is: it will be Bush or the Democratic candidate. Choose your poison if you will!
48 posted on 02/18/2004 11:14:10 AM PST by rj45mis
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To: *Homosexual Agenda; EdReform; scripter; GrandMoM; backhoe; Yehuda; Clint N. Suhks; saradippity; ...
Homosexual Agenda Ping -

Note that the comments include a whole lotta Bush bashing...

Please note, fellows FR enthusiasts, that Log Cabin Reoublicans started their organization under the premise that Abraham Lincoln was a fellow same-sex sodomy practitioner.

Please also note that the reason they are "Republican" is to steer the GOP in favor of the homosexual agenda. It is a sore point with me that Bush caters to them - hiring aggressive homosexuals, and so on. But there is no alternative. Not voting for Bush means the possibility of the Dem'o'crap contender getting elected. We don't want that, do we? I sure as heck don't.

"If you're not with the one you love, love the one you're with" -- politically speaking.
49 posted on 02/18/2004 11:18:25 AM PST by little jeremiah (everyone is entitled to their opinion, but everyone isn't entitled to be right.)
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To: KantianBurke
"Troubled?"

This is an ominous sign.

50 posted on 02/18/2004 11:21:04 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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