The Courage of Muslim Moderates

Boston Globe ^ | 2/22/2004 | JEFF JACOBY

[XHogPilot]

IT IS A SAD irony that the world's freest Muslims -- those who live in liberty in the West -- are so unwilling to publicly condemn the world's worst Muslims -- the militant Islamist fascists who believe in violent jihad, intolerant theocracy, subjugated women, and hatred of Jews and Americans.

[Rodney King]

What's a Coderate?

[bobo1]

What makes anyone think the muslims are opposed to this type of behavior.

You shall know them by their fruit.

Blessings, Bob

[XHogPilot]

What makes anyone think the muslims are opposed to this type of behavior.

You are quite right. Did you see who was quoted here re: "the only way to tell the real moderates from the fakes is by asking questions" ? It was not a Muslim, it was Daniel Pipes.

[CROSSHIGHWAYMAN]

IT IS A SAD irony that the world's freest Muslims -- those who live in liberty in the West -- are so unwilling to publicly condemn the world's worst Muslims -- the militant Islamist fascists who believe in violent jihad, intolerant theocracy, subjugated women, and hatred of Jews and Americans.

Only two possibilities.....

They support the murder.........or

They know Islam the best and are frightened to say anything against the cult of terror into which they unfortunately were born.

[Khepera]

All you have to do is read the Quran to know what these Muslims believe. One you know what they believe it is not hard to understand why they are not criticizing anyone of their brothers in the middle east or anywhere.

[gunnedah]

That is the real problem that exist in America today. Foreigners come to this country and try and change us and want us to comply with their wishes and those of us born here apparently have no say so.
We must afford them rights at a cost to us.

[The Mayor]

Bump!

[TADSLOS]

Practicing moderation as a muslim is akin to drinking in moderation as an alchoholic as a way of recovery. As long as the Koran exists in it's current form and is widely taught and practiced, "moderate" muslims capable of practicing tolerance and democratic ideals will always be on the endangered species list.

[Cicero]

The problem is that most of the very few Muslims who are outspokenly criticizing Muslim extremism are not really Muslims. Irshad Manji is not really a Muslim, any more than the head of Catholics for a Free Choice is a Catholic. Muslim women don't run around in public in western clothes, criticize their menfolk, or do what they like. With few exceptions, the only good Muslims are lukewarm Muslims, non-observant Muslims, or bad Muslims.

[XHogPilot]

The problem is that most of the very few Muslims who are outspokenly criticizing Muslim extremism are not really Muslims.

Nor is Daniel Pipes of the Middle East Forum says that often the only way to tell the real moderates from the fakes is by asking questions

There is a lot in this article that is hidden by the typeset.

[Pontiac]

If anyone should be raising their voices against the totalitarians and terrorists who promote such evil in the name of Islam, it is the millions of moderate Muslims in America, Canada, and Europe…….Some say nothing out of a misplaced sense of loyalty; others are afraid of being ostracized if they rock the communal boat.

They say nothing because they are afraid one of the “Moderate Muslims” will come in the night and cut their and their families’ heads.

[cyborg]

They know islam best IMHO. I read the british editions of ladies magazines. Almost every month are letters from muslim girls married/dating non-muslims who live in fear of being hacked to death by FAMILY.

[tubavil]

Correct!

[junaid]

I am a muslim. I know there are plenty who think the way I do. We just do not hold authority in large islamic organizations.

Anyhow, here are *my* answers.

- Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians?
>I condemn them.

- Will you condemn by name such terrorist groups as Abu Sayyaf, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and Al Qaeda?
>Yes

- Should Muslim women have equal rights with men?
>Yes

- Should non-Muslims enjoy the same civil rights as Muslims?
>Yes

- Do you accept the legitimacy of a non-Muslim government, such as that of the United States, and will you pledge allegiance to that government?
>I do and I have (I'm a US Citizen)

- Who carried out the 9/11 attacks?
>Muslims. But those that did the deed don't represent everyone.

[Ramonan]

Here is an order leading Clerics in Iraq generated:
Courtesy of: http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/


Oh believers, you shall obey Allah, his messenger, and those in charge amongst you. (Sura 4:59)

The Muslim Ulemma held a meeting at Imam Al-Khalisi's Madinat Al-Ilm university in Kadhimiyah, Baghdad on the 15th of Thi Al-Qi'da, year 1424 of the Hijri calendar. And after looking into the overall condition of Muslims in the country and the developing problems they have been through, and in the light of Allah's holy book and the Sunna of his prophet (pbuh), we have issued this obligatory fatwa for all muslims who believe in the two Shahadas to follow:

"Unity between all Muslims is a legal duty above all others, and that any statement or action which may result in weakening or dividing the Umma is absolutely prohibited legally, and that a Muslim's blood is haram (forbidden) on his brother Muslim, according to the honourable Hadith: "A Muslim is haram on a Muslim: his honour, his possessions, and his blood".

Therefore, any attacks or aggressions against Iraqis, their scientists and intellectuals, their mosques and holy places are legal sins which no true Muslim should commit. It is our legal duty as Ulemma and heralds of the Umma to emphasize the spirit of tolerance, unity, and harmony, and to warn against division and dispersion, and any statement or deed which may lead to them, not taking into consideration the interest of the Umma.

The believers are members of one family, so keep the peace within and revere Allah, that you may attain mercy. (Sura 49:10)

Oh Lord, witness that we have informed.. Witness that we have informed.

Signed;

Mohammed Mahdi Al-Khalisi.
Dr. Abdul Salam Al-Kubaisi.
Harith Suleiman Al-Dhari.
Ahmad Al-Hassani Al-Baghdadi.
Ibrahim Munir Al-Mudarris.
Mohammed Ahmad Al-Rashid.
Dr. Mohammed Bashar Al-Faydhi.
Jawad Al-Khalisi.
Qasim Al-Ta'i.
Abdul Ridha Al-Jaza'iri.

15th of Thi Al-Qi'da. 1424 H.

[tubavil]

Since the usual FR muslim terror apologists will show up here soon, I pose this challenge to them:

List ten islamic organizations or religious leaders actively fighting islamic terror.

What specific actions have they taken?

How long have they been fighting islamic terror?

What specific successes have they had?

How many of the 1.1 billion muslims are members/followers?

[don-o]

All you have to do is read the Quran to know what these Muslims believe.

Nope.

If you know anything abot Christians and the Holy Bible, then you know that there can be huge diffeences in practicing what we read out of Scripture.

I expect the Muslims have the same dichotomies.

[don-o]

I am a muslim. I know there are plenty who think the way I do. We just do not hold authority in large islamic organizations

This goes right to what Jacoby is writing about.

Please tell more.

Muslims who have bought into the Americam freedom of conscience in religious matters, could be a powerful voice in these times.

[XHogPilot]

List ten islamic organizations or religious leaders actively fighting islamic terror.

Uhhhh.

Please let me clear the area if you intend to ping Hoplite and Ronly Bonly Jones

[tkathy]

Much as the moderate Germans who didn't speak out about Hitler before WWII when something could still be done, history will judge the Muslims in the West who don't speak out against the murderers in their midst.

Any Muslim with any conscience should be voting for GWB.

[Piranha]

They know Islam the best and are frightened to say anything against the cult of terror into which they unfortunately were born.

Most American Muslims are converts (largely African Americans for some reason).

[Monty22]

Very few Nazis will be remembered as positive, such as Schindler.

I don't think islam even has that many good ones.

[Piranha]

In your estimation, Junaid, assuming that there are about 2 million American Muslims, how many would answer the questions the way that you do?

[Siamese Princess]

The problem is that most of the very few Muslims who are outspokenly criticizing Muslim extremism are not really Muslims. Irshad Manji is not really a Muslim, any more than the head of Catholics for a Free Choice is a Catholic. Muslim women don't run around in public in western clothes, criticize their menfolk, or do what they like. With few exceptions, the only good Muslims are lukewarm Muslims, non-observant Muslims, or bad Muslims.

You are absolutely correct. Someone on the Free Republic observed that a "moderate Muslims" should more accurately be called "moderately Muslim," a person who simply ignores, or is ignorate of, much of his faith. There is just no getting around that fact.

[King Prout]

not just the suriyah of the Koran, but the hadith of the Sunnah.
Vitriol drips from every page.

Try an exercise:
1. Randomly select 50 lines from the Koran and Sunnah
2. Delete all the flowery space filler ("peace be upon his name" or "the most merciful, the benevolent" blahblahblah et omnia generis alia) as superfluity
3. Since all words attributed to Mohammed are held to be either direct communiques from Allah or inspired by Allah, AND all words attributed to Allah come out of Mohammed's mouth, they are thus synonamous. Delete all iterations of "Allah" and "Mohammed" and "The Prophet" and replace them with "The Leader"
4. Read your newly clarified text aloud.
5. Ask yourself: what doe this vile, hate-filled screed sound most like?

The answer? A mix of "Mein Kampf" and the Nurnburg rally.

Nazism.

Now, I am sure there were some identifiably moderate Nazis.
However, the existence of such moderate individuals did not in any way imply the existence of moderate NAZISM, or that such a version COULD exist.

So... why are so many in the West so all-fired eager to point to some meager handful of identifiably moderate Muslims and shriek "Eureka! Here is moderate ISLAM!"???

[King Prout]

you realize, of course, that you are in direct conflict with the words of the Prophet?

[COEXERJ145]

Ya know, saying every Muslim is a terrorist or terrorist supporter is like saying every German during WWII was a Nazi. Neither statement is true.

Now of course some here will flame me for saying this. In school, I had several classes with a woman who was a Muslim but born in the U.S. (Her parents came from Turkey around 30 years ago.) She and her husband were the nicest people you could ever meet. She was in a class with me on September 11th, 2001 and was just as horrified as the rest of us. They hate people like bin Laden and the other Islamofascists as much as we do.

I'm a Christian and was proud to call them my friends. They were a lot nicer than some people I meet in church over the years. They were as red, white, & blue as any of us and support this country in the war on terror. (They'll also be voting for Dubya in November.)

[King Prout]

Before you spout your cultural judgements regarding the possibility for diversity of views in Islam, answer the following question:
Have you ever actually read the entirety of the Koran and the Sunnah?

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

I am a muslim. I know there are plenty who think the way I do. We just do not hold authority in large islamic organizations. Anyhow, here are *my* answers.

Your answers are appreciated. But have you publicly stated your views before a large group of Muslims? Have you tried to persuade anyone to your views? Unless the moderates speak out, they are silently condoning the extremism of the terrorists. If the "plenty who think the way [you] do" banded together, perhaps radical Islam could be defeated. Strength in numbers.

[joesnuffy]

Moderate Islam is the 'Trojan Horse' of the real deal
..imo

[Eala]

IT IS A SAD irony that the world's freest Muslims -- those who live in liberty in the West -- are so unwilling to publicly condemn the world's worst Muslims -- the militant Islamist fascists who believe in violent jihad, intolerant theocracy, subjugated women, and hatred of Jews and Americans.

At a recent party of mostly Iranians, one related remarks (yes, this is hearsay) by Iranian Muslims in the US of how much they hate the mullahs. One particular quote: "They should crown every tree in Tehran with the head of a mullah."

In part due to my limited encounters with CAIR, I suspect CROSSHIGHWAYMAN has got it the best: They know Islam the best and are frightened to say anything against the cult of terror into which they unfortunately were born. I'm also willing to allow this for some members of CAIR I've met, though some I've met there I suspect belong more to the problem than the solution.

[nuconvert]

Thank you very much

[nuconvert]

P O N G

[paul51]

Some say nothing out of a misplaced sense of loyalty; others are afraid of being ostracized if they rock the communal boat

I'd be willing to bet it has more to do with secretly supporting the murdering scum.

[nuconvert]

Oh Please.

And your point of asking that is what exactly?

Want to start a discussion on Christians being in conflict with God or the teachings of Jesus? You'll be here forever.

It seems what you're doing, is trying to give this person (junaid) a hard time for coming forward and expressing the views you'd like all Muslims to have. Does that make sense to do?

[Valin]

The problem is that most of the very few Muslims who are outspokenly criticizing Muslim extremism are not really Muslims.

Islam and the Theology of Power
"Supremacist puritanism in contemporary Islam is dismissive of all moral norms or ethical values."
By Khaled Abou El Fadl, UCLA School of Law.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/elfadl01.htm

Islamic Extremism: A Viable Threat to U.S. National Security
An Open Forum at the U.S. Department of State, January 7, 1999
Transcript of presentation by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani
http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/site/wrappers/default.asp?pane_2=content-extremism_inamerica_unveiling010799

Not REALLY MUSLIMS? Nonsense! and you should know that.

[Valin]

How about?
"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

We can play dueling verses if you want.

[Valin]

Welcome aboard.

[txhurl]

I've read many times here that American Muslims are watched and reported on to their emigrant country. Bad things can happen to their family back home if they step out of line.

[2rightsleftcoast]

But they aren't. Why don't they speak out? Sorry, I have been waiting and waiting for the "peaceful Muslims" to denounce terror. I have heard nothing!!!
But still we allow more to come here to attend school?
I won't print how I feel about this.

[nuconvert]

There is truth in what you say.
And muslims in this country also fear for the safety of themselves and family who live here.

[F16Fighter]

"I am a muslim. I know there are plenty who think the way I do. We just do not hold authority in large islamic organizations."

Serious questions:

At friends and family gatherings, is your point of view known? If it is, is it resented?

Or is your opinion the general consensus amongst your circle of friend and family?

[Valin]

A Muslim Patriot's Call
The Arizona Republic via FrontPage Magazine ^ | October 13, 2003 | Oubai Mohammad Shahbandar
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1000468/posts

The Error of Radicalism

Why Should a Muslim Refrain From Being a "Radical" and Prefer Tolerance

HARUN YAHYA
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/the_radicalism.html

Here's two. I have more if you want.

[King Prout]

there is no point, as we both know I could bury you easily.

any rejection of any line of the Koran is apostasy, theft from Allah, punishable by death, and a sentence to damnation. Allah hates those who ask too many questions, you know.

And do not bother brining up the notion of the so-called Satanic Verses - as it is said in the hadith: "There is none among you with whom there is not an attache from amongst the devils. The Companions said: Allah's Messenger, with you too? Thereupon he said: Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not compel me but for good." 6757

This makes clear that there can be NO "satanic verses"

Deal with it - the infallability of the Koran and Hadith is a perfectly circular argument, admitting no possibility of error or permission to question.

[King Prout]

to stray from the word of Christ is considered a forgivable sin by Christians.
to stray even the slightest bit from the Koran and Sunnah is apostasy, and is unforgivable unless the apostate recants.

[Valin]

any rejection of any line of the Koran is apostasy, theft from Allah, punishable by death, and a sentence to damnation

Ok

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

If someone kills another person—unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth—it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs, but even after that, many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Qur’an, 5:32)

[King Prout]

*shaking head*
no compulsion, eh?
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

consider your first quip buried

on killing, this oughtta bury you:
On killing the children of Polytheists - Sa'b b.Jassama said to Mohammed "Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of polytheists during the night raids. He (the Prophet) said: They are from them (ie: no reason to fuss about it, or "nits make lice")

oh, and pay attention to that quaint little modifier: "—unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth—"
Considering that Christians are repeatedly called "those with a sickness in their hearts" and are themselves a corruption on the Earth. Duh. Read for detail.

Also, first line of the traditional first book of the Koran "The Cow": "Alif lam mim. This Book IS NOT TO BE DOUBTED."
Period.
there endeth the lesson.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[Valin]

any rejection of any line of the Koran is apostasy, theft from Allah, punishable by death, and a sentence to damnation

So how do you reconcile these two different replies?