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The Hispanic Challenge (To America) A MUST READ Samuel Huntington (Long But Good)
Foreign Policy ^ | March 2004 | Samuel P. Huntington

Posted on 02/24/2004 10:40:36 AM PST by Cacique

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As someone the census bureau would classify as Hispanic. I think that I can speak with confidence that there are those of us who came here to be Americans and adopt American values. We abandoned our former countries because they were failures culturally, economically and politically. Unfortunately there are others who are here not as "immigrants" but as "colonists". They want to bring their failed culture and failed ideas to America and impose them here. Unfortunately there are panderers on both the left and the right that will play into those sentiments and help accelerate the Balkanization of America.
1 posted on 02/24/2004 10:40:37 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Clemenza; PARodrig; nutmeg; firebrand; NYC GOP Chick; A. Pole; harpseal; rmlew; RaceBannon; ...
ping
2 posted on 02/24/2004 10:42:49 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
This is an excellent article and argues convincingly, effectively and without any racist overtones for closing the US Mexico border.

And this review is brought to you by someone who normally bashes the "throw the mexicans out" articles and posts.
3 posted on 02/24/2004 10:53:10 AM PST by staytrue
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To: Cacique
"Unfortunately there are others who are here not as "immigrants" but as "colonists". They want to bring their failed culture and failed ideas to America and impose them here. Unfortunately there are panderers on both the left and the right that will play into those sentiments and help accelerate the Balkanization of America."

Worth repeating, nice post and well said.
4 posted on 02/24/2004 10:53:30 AM PST by Bikers4Bush (Flood waters rising, heading for more conservative ground. Write in Tancredo in 04'!)
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To: Cacique
Good post.
5 posted on 02/24/2004 10:57:54 AM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: Cacique
there are many, many hispanics in the new york area who have assimilated and are as american as anybody else. they are not noticed and labeled as hispanics, so this side of the equation is not really appreciated. in new york, at least, the successful hispanics are those who have assimilated, and they are like the irish-americans and italian-americans.
i realize the southwest is different, but i have the feeling that this article may be slightly alarmist.
6 posted on 02/24/2004 11:34:59 AM PST by drhogan
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To: drhogan
one thing that this article ignores: the people who come from mexico to the US are not necessarily the same as those who stay in mexico. probably the more ambitious ones will come here, the people who want to make money. making money and freedom are the two things that pull most people to this country, no matter what their home country was. the same value differences were once true in regard to irish americans and italian americans, but now, at least in new york, these groups are typical americans.
i had german ancestors that came to PA befoe the american revolution. despite the strong german identity in part of PA ("pennsylvania dutch") they somehow learned english, and i don't speak any german. i suspect this will happen with the hispanics eventully.
7 posted on 02/24/2004 11:41:57 AM PST by drhogan
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To: Yehuda
ping
8 posted on 02/24/2004 12:52:42 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Warrior Nurse
ping
9 posted on 02/24/2004 12:55:30 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
The Hispanic Challenge - Hispanic, Latinos, Mexicans, Latin Americans...

For me, the challenge is reading words that seem to have no clear definition attached to them. Hispanic, Latino, and Latin American says nothing at all to me. Even the word Mexican has lost its meaning. It's used when talking about Mexican nationals as well as when talking about Americans of Mexican descent.

So, who do I complain to and who's going to serve me some cheese to go with my whine? ;^)

10 posted on 02/24/2004 1:10:43 PM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: Cacique
I'm still trying to figure out what American culture is.
11 posted on 02/24/2004 1:37:56 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Cacique
In 1959, Cubans were pretty well "Americanized".

In my own family, we had been bilingual Spanish-English for three generations before we ever came to the U.S.A. in 1960.

We did retain our cultural ways which were the cultural ways of the Old Americans that become so Politically Incorrect in the 1960's.

So, by growing up Cuban American in Miami in the 1960's, I grew up in the America of the 1930's and 1940's while our "Anglo" Baby Boomer contemporaries were turning their backs on that America.

As to language, you really can't be successful (serious money successful) in the U.S. with having mastered English. In my generation, it was Spanish that we negelected growing up in the 1960's. Only when we found out in the 1970's and 1980's that negotiating that contract with that Argentinian company or Venezuelan company required more attention to our Spanish that we had paid it in our high school years did my generation go back and bring their Spanish up to a professional level.

As for immigrants congregating, tell that to the Jews in Miami Beach and New York, the Chinese in Chinatown, the Irish in Massachessets, the Poles in Chicago, the Scandanavians in Minnesota, the Southern Blacks in the District of Columbia, the Germans in Pennsylvania.......

12 posted on 02/24/2004 1:45:45 PM PST by Polybius
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To: Polybius
As to language, you really can't be successful (serious money successful) in the U.S. with having mastered English

Typo Alert:

"As to language, you really can't be successful (serious money successful) in the U.S. without having mastered English."

13 posted on 02/24/2004 1:49:09 PM PST by Polybius
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To: Modernman
Ping from an old professor of mine back in his controversial "Clash of Civilizations" days (and to think, he was in the Carter administration). A gloomy, depressing, prophetic read. I think of it as something the as yet unborn author of "The Decline and Fall of the United States" will cite to liberally. I really do think it's too late to stop this. And we have the GOP and the Catholic Church (amongst countless other entities) to thank for much of it!
14 posted on 02/24/2004 2:25:19 PM PST by BroncosFan ("Give the Harkonnen a blade.")
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To: BroncosFan
The biggest problem I see is that we seem to have given up on the idea of assimilating newcomers. If this country becomes less white but retains American culture, I don't see a problem. However, government programs and "multiculturalism" have de-emphasized assimilation.

In my cynical moments, I see this as a plot by rich transnationalists. That includes both wealthy Republicans and Democrats. To be brutally honest, this type of thing is good for the managerial/professional/political class. Non-English speaking Mexicans are not going to take away their jobs at Morgan Stanley. As an employer, it's a lot easier to mistreat an illiterate illegal from Chiapas than it is an American-born lower-middle-class person (they have guns, remember). Products and services become cheaper.

Hell, you can even let some of the brightest newcomers into the upper echelons of society. Helps to bring new blood into the Patrician classes.

The Roman Empire was like this, in its last days. The elites became even more rapacious, while the mob became even more useless to the Empire.

Meanwhile, the barbarians gathered over the Danube....

15 posted on 02/24/2004 2:45:45 PM PST by Modernman ("The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides)
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To: cyborg
Perhaps if you are born here you are so tuned to it that you don't recognize it. With the opposite is true, I may not be able to describe it very well, but I know American culture when I see it.

It does have several elements to it, a judeo-christian ethos, a belief in the constitutional republic as envisioned by the founders, and a serious individualism rather than a collectivist one.

All of these qualities are of course being eroded by the Gramscian success of the left in defacing the common identity. A lack of proper civics education, a constant attack on religion and western values and the promotion of collectivist socialism is eroding much of the American "culture" but it's still there.

As I said before, I may not be able to describe it very well, but I know it when I see it.

16 posted on 02/24/2004 4:06:43 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
Extremely good article, truthful and right to the point (even though it HAS to cover a lot of ground). This individual has given one of the most accurate descriptions of what is happening and what will happen within a very short period of time. Outstanding article.
17 posted on 02/24/2004 4:10:34 PM PST by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: Modernman
Meanwhile, the barbarians gathered over the Danube....

The barbarians are already here. All you have ton do is travel a mere 20 blocks from where I live and see a magnificent Mosque and an avenue full of Arabesque cafés and even a store named "Islamic Fashions" where you can purchase the latest hajib and veil. In the meantime the women push baby carriages down the street while having five or six other children in tow. At least I assume they are women, I can't really tell since they all dress in black and are covered from head to toe except for a slit where I assume their eyes are. Of course these people hope that someday everyone in America will join them and emulate them. I assume that given enough time and the way things are they may just have their wish.

Guess which religion is the fastest growing among hispanics? Right under the radar and it's not happening in prisons either. I think you probably guessed already.

18 posted on 02/24/2004 4:17:50 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
This has to be bumped until it is read. Rush Limbaugh, please read this!
19 posted on 02/24/2004 4:38:16 PM PST by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: drhogan
i have the feeling that this article may be slightly alarmist

The point of the article is that most immigrants come from a long way from home and because of this are more likely to assimilate, more likely to adopt the US as home, more likely to shed ties to the old country than mexicans.

If you look at the pie charts, you find essentially no difference in education or employment or homeownership between native born and immigrants from everywhere but mexico.

Further, unlike other anti immigrant articles which often argues against all immigrants or all non white immigrants, this one does not do that, but says that because the homeland is so close for mexicans, it hinders their assimlation. And while arguing against mexican immigration, the article does so without prejudice, and without malice.

20 posted on 02/24/2004 4:38:38 PM PST by staytrue
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To: Cacique
Not to worry--when America falls off her high horse things will change. When the only people having jobs are mexicans (because they speak Spanglese) things will change. All in all, it might be a good thing. This is one fight that could unify the Yellows, Blacks and whites as one people.
21 posted on 02/24/2004 4:52:52 PM PST by Hollywoodghost (Let he who would be free strike the first blow)
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To: Cacique
If I say American culture is a certain thing, then usually there's something that presents itself as an 'exception'. My father said all I needed to know about America that was important is the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. As long as I can remember, I pretty much worshipped my dad as the American icon. I'm glad for the brainwashing I got as child because I managed to survive atttending college during the late 1990s the height of the PC movement. I happen to agree with your summary as well. The NEA is a terrorist group BTW. There are a lot of kids born here, parents born here American kids black,white otherwise, who are very confused and ignorant about life and have no sense of self thanks to the publik skools.
22 posted on 02/24/2004 4:53:22 PM PST by cyborg
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
btt

I'll second that

23 posted on 02/24/2004 4:53:57 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
This is a great article which ought to lay to rest the fiction that this current wave of illegal immigrants are just like the many others which came.

Can you spell Y-u-g-o-s-l-a-v-i-a? I thought you could!

24 posted on 02/24/2004 5:02:01 PM PST by Gritty ("A balkanized, polyglot, teeming mass of strangers is not a healthy national family-Mike McGarry)
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To: BroncosFan
And we have the GOP and the Catholic Church (amongst countless other entities) to thank for much of it!

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot..." -- Thomas Jefferson

25 posted on 02/24/2004 5:04:50 PM PST by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Cacique
The Cuban and Hispanic dominance of Miami left Anglos (as well as blacks) as outside minorities that could often be ignored.

Before the upper class Latinos turned Miami into a business center it was a dying resort area with local politics dominated by Jewish in-migrants from the northeast. I lived there from 1999-2002 and enjoyed it immensely.

I don't care what language a person speaks as long as they are willing to start businesses and pay their own way, which is why my resentment is stronger against poorer immigrants from places such as Mexico who dump their kids on our already awful public schools. There is a world of difference between a Colombian banker and a Mexican dishwasher.

Huntington also fails to admit that the second generation is English dominant. While it is true that the adults in the area I lived in Miami spoke largely Spanish, their children preferred English when speaking to eachother. The concern over language is a tempest in a teapot, although I do agree that government-sponsored bilingualism must end.

26 posted on 02/24/2004 5:14:31 PM PST by Clemenza (I am a sick man...I am an unattractive man...I am an ANGRY man --- Doestoyevsky)
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To: cyborg; Cacique; Polybius
I'm still trying to figure out what American culture is.

As of 2004, Hip-Hop, reality shows and Wal-Mart. I have found that aside from about 10-20% of the country that could be considered "cultured" (ie seen movies other than Twister or Men in Black), most Americans, whether white, black or "other," tend to share they same respect for low culture. What is different now from say 30 years ago is that "middle brow" culture has disappered. A symptom of this is the decline of the family shi, er, "Sitcom" as a staple of television viewing.

Give me Sabado Gigante over Survivor or BET anyday of the week. Better yet, turn off the television and read a book for a change.

27 posted on 02/24/2004 5:19:33 PM PST by Clemenza (I am a sick man...I am an unattractive man...I am an ANGRY man --- Doestoyevsky)
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To: drhogan; Cacique
there are many, many hispanics in the new york area who have assimilated and are as american as anybody else.

Well, the Puerto Ricans who came here after WWII assimilated into American ghetto culture and tend to speak black English rather than Spanish. We have a huge wave of Mexicans in the city that most New Yorkers ignore, with the exception of the dwindling contingent of lower middle class white people who live on Staten Island or SW Brooklyn. Upper/middle class South and Central Americans tend to go out to suburbia at a faster rate and assimilate quite well. It depends on the origin of the sending country and the social class of the people before they come here.

28 posted on 02/24/2004 5:23:49 PM PST by Clemenza (I am a sick man...I am an unattractive man...I am an ANGRY man --- Doestoyevsky)
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To: Clemenza
I agree... I hardly watch TV anymore. It's pretty boring.
29 posted on 02/24/2004 5:41:59 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Clemenza
Huntington also fails to admit that the second generation is English dominant. While it is true that the adults in the area I lived in Miami spoke largely Spanish, their children preferred English when speaking to eachother. The concern over language is a tempest in a teapot, although I do agree that government-sponsored bilingualism must end.

In the initial wave of Cuban refugees of the early 1960's, almost everyone spoke English as English was simply one of the things that a well-educated Cuban needed to know in order to succeed in the Cuban business world.

Even my grandmother, born in 1887, spoke English before we ever came to the U.S. When we came to the U.S. when I was 6, the only members of my family that spoke no English were my cousin's month old infant, who spoke nothing at all, and myself. When the "grown ups" wanted to discuss adult matters and leave me out of the loop at home back in Cuba, they spoke English.

Once we were in the U.S., the rules for the kids were that, at home, the kids spoke to the "grown ups" in Spanish. We therefore had English emmersion at school and Spanish emmersion at home.

Non of this "bilingualism" B.S. The only way to learn a language is sink-or-swim emmersion both at home and at school.

So, in the case of my older first cousin's kids, the fourth consecutive Spanish-English bilingual generation was raised and those who married other Cuban Americans are now trying to raise the fifth consecutive Spanish-English bilingual generation.

Even now, when I am in my late 40's, I still follow the old "don't speak English to the grown ups" rule when I phone my older aunts, uncles and "grown-ups-when-I-was-- kid" older first cousins. It's just ingrained in me.

With each generation, however, passing on Spanish becomes more difficult as our generation finds it easier to speak English amongst ourselves. If you marry an "Anglo" as I did, bilingualism is out the window.

Even if you marry another Cuban American, switching from English to Spanish with your spouse after the baby is born takes a lot of effort and many couples just give up and take the easy way out.

Back in the old days in Cuba, if a kid was not bilingual by high school, they would ship him off to an American boarding school to learn it. Now, if they lose Spanish......oh, well.

I see the bilingual original-wave Cuban Americans becoming as extinct as Yiddish-English bilingual American Jews in another generation.

30 posted on 02/24/2004 7:01:15 PM PST by Polybius
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To: Mr. Jeeves
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot..." -- Thomas Jefferson

I must have a link to a source for that. Please.

31 posted on 02/24/2004 7:21:45 PM PST by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: gubamyster; HiJinx; madfly
ping
32 posted on 02/24/2004 9:30:10 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
BTT
33 posted on 02/24/2004 10:39:00 PM PST by Cacique
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To: staytrue
i think huntington was so successful with his last "two civilizations" article (islam and the west) that he tried to repeat his success with mexicans and americans. but i suspect, if we go back and look at the nativist, white, anglo-saxon protestant (written) attacks on the irish, italians, and jews, that they would read very similarly.
34 posted on 02/24/2004 11:54:59 PM PST by drhogan
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To: Clemenza
i agree with you, especially in regard to social class. i have met some upper class mexicans and they are very nice people. not necessarily assimilated, but they are excellent citizens.
35 posted on 02/24/2004 11:57:03 PM PST by drhogan
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To: drhogan
my impression of the hispanic people whom i have met on long island (and years ago in CA) is that they are pretty much like everybody else (i.e., most good; some bad.)
everybody is always bringing up the bad behavior at soccer games, where the mex-ams boo the national anthem or attack somebody. however, the brits (those guys who started the US) are always killing other brits at soccer games, and the children's soccer games that i have been to on long island are not much better than the ones in LA, in terms of spectator behavior.
i suspect that in a few years, the mex-ams will identify much more with america than they will with mexico, even if they claim the opposite.
36 posted on 02/25/2004 12:04:12 AM PST by drhogan
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To: Cacique
The only way to solving a problem is realizing that one has a problem. Refusing to accept that one has a problem leaves no solution and only inevitable consequence.
37 posted on 02/25/2004 4:31:53 AM PST by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: nutmeg
please ping your list
38 posted on 02/25/2004 5:48:04 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Black Agnes
ping
39 posted on 02/25/2004 5:48:29 AM PST by Cacique
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To: hellinahandcart
ping
40 posted on 02/25/2004 5:49:00 AM PST by Cacique
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To: sauropod
ping
41 posted on 02/25/2004 5:49:33 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique; NYC GOP Chick; firebrand
Guess which religion is the fastest growing among hispanics?

So the brother of a Puerto Rican colleague tells me. He's one of the honchos of the Allianza Islamica here.

He's got a show on Pacifica Radio too. (eye roll)

I have to be polite to him on the rare occasions when I see him, it's a business thing...

42 posted on 02/25/2004 6:57:25 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Cacique
And I will read this article later, 'cause I have to run now. Ash Wednesday service.
43 posted on 02/25/2004 6:58:35 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Cacique
Bookmark / BTTT
44 posted on 02/25/2004 7:47:29 AM PST by spodefly (February is Tagline History Month!)
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To: spodefly
btt back at ya
45 posted on 02/25/2004 7:59:16 AM PST by Cacique
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To: Gritty
This is a great article which ought to lay to rest the fiction that this current wave of illegal immigrants are just like the many others which came.

The article does conclude that the current non mexican immigrants ARE very much like the others who came.

Despite this fact, I suspect you are very much against chinese or indian immigrants anyway, even thought the article pretty much says that they assimailate easily and behave pretty much the same or better than native born.

46 posted on 02/25/2004 2:53:08 PM PST by staytrue
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To: Cacique
BUMP for later read
47 posted on 02/25/2004 2:54:22 PM PST by justanotherfreeper
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To: staytrue
I suspect you are very much against chinese or indian immigrants anyway

I'm not against anybody who is a "legal" immigrant, with the general exception of most Muslims. But that is because, even moreso than Communists, I think they are generally incapable of assimilation into our society because they cannot give full political loyalty to this country. They constitute a genuine threat to our long-term stabilty and peace as a nation. Behold Europe or any other place where they have emigrated in large numbers. Disaster!

The major problem here is unrestricted and unsustainable "illegal" immigration. I do, however, think immigration needs to be contolled in numbers as well as from which countries and cultures people come from. This is our country. We should regulate it the best way for us, not them.

I also have a daughter-in-law who is a legal immigrant. She for several years has been going through the endless paperwork and hassle mill of this bureaucracy which one encounters when you try to do it "legally". I have often told her she needs to sneak over the Mexican border and then enter illegally. At least that way she has a better chance of staying, getting all sorts of benefits - and it won't cost her all the money it now is costing - plus they won't keep threatening to deport her because of all their incompetent screwups!

Believe me, I am familiar with what is going on in the immigration scene and am first-hand aware of the laziness, fecklessness and downright incompetence which inhabits much of our immigration bureaucracy. It is not a government department of which I, as an American, am the least bit proud or confident.

48 posted on 02/25/2004 4:55:21 PM PST by Gritty ("A balkanized, polyglot, teeming mass of strangers is not a healthy national family-Mike McGarry)
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To: Gritty
our immigration bureaucracy. It is not a government department of which I, as an American, am the least bit proud or confident.

I'm going to agree with you but go one step farther.

Any govt. bureaucracy (education dept., commerce dept., amtrak, ,IRS, HHS, even defense and homeland security). There is not a government department of which I, as an American, am the least bit proud or confident.

It is the very nature of govt. to emphasis process and "fairness" over common sense and efficiency. Govt. is mediocre at best and outright corrupt at worst.

49 posted on 02/25/2004 8:48:48 PM PST by staytrue
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To: Cacique
bttt
50 posted on 02/27/2004 4:07:17 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe (Gay marriage is an oxymoron)
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