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Photo from "The Passion"
CNN ^ | 2/24/04 | Icon Productions

Posted on 02/24/2004 2:12:40 PM PST by Robert Teesdale

Edited on 04/29/2004 2:03:57 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

I can't wait to see the film. Anyone who thinks that being put to death by the Romans was a clean, well-groomed exercise in peaceful passing to the next world, is an absolute idiot.

I suspect that people who complain that the movie is too violent, are somewhat ignorant of the facts of life. I want to ask them, what do you think you'd look like after a few hours of scourging and crucifixion?


(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: christ; gibson; passion
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1 posted on 02/24/2004 2:12:40 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Robert Teesdale
I want to reiterate that last point.

Congratulations to Mel Gibson for doing what he wanted, with his money, in his way.

And to hell with anyone who thinks that Mel shouldn't have offended anyone. Life's too short to worry about that. I expect that the Passion will become one of the most important films in history.
2 posted on 02/24/2004 2:15:35 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Robert Teesdale; John Robinson
BUMP !!!

Can Free Republic get any SLOWER?

3 posted on 02/24/2004 2:16:19 PM PST by EggsAckley
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To: Robert Teesdale
And few people understand that crucifixion was routine for the Romans. They lined the roads leading to Rome with the crucified in order to deter crime.
4 posted on 02/24/2004 2:16:49 PM PST by tractorman
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To: Robert Teesdale
And if people choose not to see violence it's their right as well.
5 posted on 02/24/2004 2:17:08 PM PST by Hillary's Lovely Legs (Hey Botox Boy, why the long face?)
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To: Robert Teesdale
Hey, the Hollywood elite should be elated "for doing what he wanted, with his money, in his way" - but, apparently, no ...
6 posted on 02/24/2004 2:18:10 PM PST by _Jim ( <--- Ann C. and Rush L. speak on gutless Liberals (RealAudio files))
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To: EggsAckley
Can Free Republic get any SLOWER?

I think it is the Internet as a whole.

Probably some massive DOS attack generating large volumes of traffic.

7 posted on 02/24/2004 2:19:24 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help fund terrorism.)
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To: Robert Teesdale
I suspect that people who complain that the movie is too violent, are somewhat ignorant of the facts of life.

I spoke to a friend who saw it. Not only "too violent", but scenes of violence and mistreatment absent in the Gospels, like mistreatment on the way to Caiapas by the Jews.

She thought it would reinvigorate flagellant sects!

8 posted on 02/24/2004 2:20:35 PM PST by Shermy
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To: tractorman
But... but... I thought that they used lethal injection? And they gently stroked your forehead while you slipped into a quiet peaceful sleep?

Killing people is a messy, violent business at best. When state of the art is bladed weapons and part of the sentence includes a punishment so painful that a new word was necessary to describe it - excruciating - it's really not going to be a Bambi's-mother-quietly-vanishes-offscreen-to-the-sound-of-a-bangstick ending for you.
9 posted on 02/24/2004 2:20:39 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Robert Teesdale
There was a guy on the radio this morning who saw the movie last night. He said he never could understand why Jesus died so fast. He said that some crucifixions took like 10 days for the person to die. He said NOW he knows why Jesus died so fast - because of the beatings and torture.

It wasn't the Jews who killed Jesus; it was me.
10 posted on 02/24/2004 2:21:27 PM PST by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Robert Teesdale
They must not have seen Saving Private Ryan then. I thought that was a very violent gruesome movie. But then I know that war is violent and gruesome.
11 posted on 02/24/2004 2:22:19 PM PST by GailA (Millington Rally for America after action http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/872519/posts)
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
Sure. No one's being forced to see it.

But lots of effort and time and money has been put into attempting to prevent Mr. Gibson from even making the movie, let alone showing it. I find that repulsive, and hope that his $25 million investment is repaid with the biggest gross in the history of cinema.
12 posted on 02/24/2004 2:22:48 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: tractorman
And few people understand that crucifixion was routine for the Romans. They lined the roads leading to Rome with the crucified in order to deter crime.

The Romans were harsh masters, but they had to be. They were trying to hold together a multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire that spanned from Scotland to the Danube to the Sahara. A man who challenged the status quo (like Jesus) could only expect one fate.

13 posted on 02/24/2004 2:23:16 PM PST by Modernman ("The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides)
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To: Robert Teesdale
Bring back the public gallows and watch the crime rate instantly drop.
14 posted on 02/24/2004 2:24:09 PM PST by tractorman
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To: Robert Teesdale
Congratulations to Mel Gibson for doing what he wanted, with his money, in his way.

So did Michael Moore...the difference being Gibson's story is based in truth, Moore's is based on lies.

15 posted on 02/24/2004 2:24:15 PM PST by South40 (My vote helped defeat cruz bustamante; did yours?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Im glad u posted that pic From this movie, i been studying about crucifiction under the romans and would like to share this with u...... Preparations for the scourging are carried out. The prisoner is stripped
of His clothing and His hands are tied to a post above His head. It is
doubtful whether the Romans made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in
this matter of scourging. The Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more
than forty lashes. The Pharisees, always making sure that the law was
strictly kept, insisted that only thirty-nine lashes be given. (In case
of a miscount, they were sure of remaining within the law.) The Roman
legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand.
This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two
small balls of lead attached near the ends of each.

The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across
Jesus shoulders, back and legs. At first the heavy thongs cut through the
skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they are cut deeper into the
subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the
capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding
from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first
produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows.
Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire
area is an unrecognizable mass of torn bleeding tissue. When it is
determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the
beating is finally stopped.

The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone
pavement, wet with Hiw own blood. The Roman soldiers see a great joke in
this provincial Jew claiming to be a king. They throw a robe across His
shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a
crown to make their travesty complete. A small bundle of flexible
branches covered with long thorns (commonly used for firewood) are plaited
into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there
is copious bleeding (the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the
body.) After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers
take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the
thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport
and the robe is torn from His back. This had already become adherent to
the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, and its removal, just as in
the careless removal of a surgical bandage, causes exruciating
pain...almost as though He were again being whipped - and the wounds again
begin to bleed.

In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments. The heavy
patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders and the procession of
the condemned Christ, two thieves and the execution detail of the Roman
soldiers, headed by a centurion, begins its slow journey along the Via
Dolorosa. In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy
wooden cross together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is
too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into
the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. he tries to rise, but
human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion,
anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African
onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still
bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock. The 650 yard
journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed. The
prisoner is again stripped of His clothes - except for a loin cloth which
is allowed the Jews.

The crucifixion begins, Jesus is offered wine mixed with Myrrh, a mild
analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the
cross on the ground and Jesus is quickly thrown backward with His
shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at
the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail
through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other
side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms too
tightly, but to allow some flexibility and movement. The patibulum is
then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading
Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews is nailed in place.

The left foot is pressed backward against the right foot, and with both
feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each,
leaving the knees moderately flexed. The victim is now crucified. As He
slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists,
excruciating, fiery pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to
explode in the brain - the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the
median nerves. As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this wrenching
torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again
there is the searing agony of the the tearing through the nerves between
the metatarsal bones of the feet.

At this point, another phenomenon occurs. As the arms fatigue, great
waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless,
throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself
upward. Hanging by His arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the
intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs,
but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even
one short breath. Finally carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in
the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, He is
able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
16 posted on 02/24/2004 2:24:43 PM PST by ElisabethInCincy
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To: ElisabethInCincy
Feel free to add to it ur own knowledge . I guess i as a born again christian for 16 yrs never realized it was that brutal.:(
17 posted on 02/24/2004 2:25:59 PM PST by ElisabethInCincy
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To: Saundra Duffy
Yeah, the pre-nail treatment isn't terribly life-extending.

The entire purpose of the scourging and crucifixion is to kill the person it's inflicted upon. It's a sentence, of death, imposed by the ruler of the day.

It was intended not just to punish, but also terrify the onlookers. Did a good job, too, from the Roman perspective. Otherwise it wouldn't have been such a common practice.
18 posted on 02/24/2004 2:26:09 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Robert Teesdale
Hear, hear!! Because of all the cleaned up painting, crucifixs, and all of Jesus hanging so "peacefully" on the cross, people do not seriously think through what He did for us. I say get the truth out and shake these folks out of their lethargic souls.
19 posted on 02/24/2004 2:26:43 PM PST by Ladysmith
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To: tractorman
And the Romans weren't the only people who used Crucifixion either. Other nations, not under Roman rule did too and they weren't influenced by Roman methods;it was part of their "culture" as well.
20 posted on 02/24/2004 2:27:55 PM PST by nopardons
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To: tractorman
Bring back the public gallows and watch the crime rate instantly drop.

If only it were that easy. I remember reading how the public spectacle of a pickpocket being hanged was one of the most likely places to find pickpockets plying their trade.

It is the certainty, not the severity, of punishment that deters crime.

21 posted on 02/24/2004 2:28:12 PM PST by FormerLib ("Homosexual marriage" is just another route to anarchy.)
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To: Ladysmith
Im going to the movie sunday , and i guess with all the former jesus movies in my mind this will be a shocker AND THE REAL DEAL.
22 posted on 02/24/2004 2:28:15 PM PST by ElisabethInCincy
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To: ElisabethInCincy
But if the person being crucified lived too long the legs were broken to expedite things.
23 posted on 02/24/2004 2:30:35 PM PST by Jaded (Personally, I think they should bring back flogging and burning at the stake. /so)
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To: Robert Teesdale
A friend of mine saw an early private screening of the movie. He told me that he was sppechless for some time afterwards, and that saying the rosaries would never be the same for him. He highly recommended it to me.
24 posted on 02/24/2004 2:31:26 PM PST by airborne (lead by example)
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To: EggsAckley
Can Free Republic get any SLOWER?

I wonder if it's all the newbies posting useless vanities all day today.

25 posted on 02/24/2004 2:32:24 PM PST by Johnny Gage (God Bless our Firefighters, our Police, our EMS responders, and most of all, our Veterans)
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To: Saundra Duffy
He died fast because He had fulfilled Gods plan and God saw no reason to let him suffer any longer. When he said My God my GOd why hast thou forsaken me, God let him die. As I recall, it was highly unusual for Him to die so fast. That in itself was part of the miracle. Also they usually broke their legs to hasten death and it was foretold in the Old Testament that his bones would not be broken. And they weren't. Praise His Holy Name.
26 posted on 02/24/2004 2:32:45 PM PST by beckysueb (Lady Liberty is in danger! Bush/Cheney 04.)
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To: Robert Teesdale
Anyone who thinks that being put to death by the Romans was a clean, well-groomed exercise in peaceful passing to the next world,..........

...will understand from where the inspiration came that compelled the Founding Fathers to prohibit "Cruel and Unusual Punishment".

27 posted on 02/24/2004 2:32:55 PM PST by elbucko
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To: Robert Teesdale
What gets me is that ole Bill Oreally thinks it;s just tooooviolent for him. I wish Mel had said. Well Bill Crucifixion IS violent,bloody and cruel. But of course the PC version would have not a drop of blood
28 posted on 02/24/2004 2:34:41 PM PST by marty60
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To: GailA
They must not have seen Saving Private Ryan then

Yeh. That half a body being dragged to safety makes Gibson look like a softy.

Let's not even talk about "The Chainsaw Massacre."

29 posted on 02/24/2004 2:36:11 PM PST by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: elbucko
Really good point.
30 posted on 02/24/2004 2:36:33 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Robert Teesdale
> I want to ask them, what do you think you'd look like after a few hours of scourging and crucifixion?

If life seems jolly rotten,      *
There's something you've forgotten,
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That's the thing.
And...

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life,
[whistling]

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It's your last chance, anyhow.
So,...

Always look on the bright side of death,
[whistling]
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
[whistling]

Life's a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life's a laugh and death's a joke. It's true.
You'll see it's all a show.
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And...

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling] . . .

------------------------------------------------------------------
* And for the people
who want to wallow in the
grief and blood and pain,

remember "Gospel"
means good news and Jesus said
we should be happy:

"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. You have heard Me say to you, "I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe."

[John 14:27-29]

31 posted on 02/24/2004 2:38:28 PM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: Modernman
....multi-religious empire that spanned from Scotland to the Danube to the Sahara.

I beg your pardon, the Romans never subjugated the Scots.

32 posted on 02/24/2004 2:38:42 PM PST by elbucko
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To: Hillary's Lovely Legs
"And if people choose not to see violence it's their right as well."

Thanks for that. I am not going to see this movie. Violence I can sort of handle. Shoot somebody, stab somebody, it's quick. But 100 minutes of watching torture? Uh uh, can't watch it. I hope the movie is a success though.

33 posted on 02/24/2004 2:41:03 PM PST by DestroytheDemocrats (John Kerry - A legend in his own mind.)
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To: Robert Teesdale
Centurion: You know the penalty laid down by Roman law for harboring a known criminal?
Matthias: No.
Centurion: Crucifixion!
Matthias: Oh.
Centurion: Nasty, eh?
Matthias: Could be worse.
Centurion: What you mean "Could be worse"?
Matthias: Well, you could be stabbed.
Centurion: Stabbed? Takes a second. Crucifixion lasts hours. It's a slow, horrible death.
Matthias: Well, at least it gets you out in the open air.
Centurion: You're weird!
34 posted on 02/24/2004 2:41:06 PM PST by KantianBurke (Principles, not blind loyalty)
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To: theFIRMbss
THANK YOU for the Python lyrics! That has to be one of the funniest, most irreverant scenes in the history of film.
35 posted on 02/24/2004 2:44:21 PM PST by EggsAckley
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To: Robert Teesdale
"I suspect that people who complain that the movie is too violent,"

...have never heard of Quentin Tarantino, or they only approve of violence when it's gratuitous and totally pointless.
36 posted on 02/24/2004 2:46:11 PM PST by Spok
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To: elbucko
I beg your pardon, the Romans never subjugated the Scots.

Parts of it, they did. In any event, the Scots certainly would have been better off as part of the Empire than as dirty painted savages.

37 posted on 02/24/2004 2:47:48 PM PST by Modernman ("The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides)
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To: FormerLib
Capital punishment is not a deterrent; it's an eliminator. It eliminates crime by eliminating the criminal.
38 posted on 02/24/2004 2:48:22 PM PST by savedbygrace
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To: Modernman
In any event, the Scots certainly would have been better off as part of the Empire than as dirty painted savages.
Stop inciting violence against the Scots!!! </sarcasm>
39 posted on 02/24/2004 2:55:07 PM PST by eastsider
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To: elbucko
&***I beg your pardon, the Romans never subjugated the Scots.***

What was it Gibbon(Fall of the Roman Empire) said about the reason Rome didn't want Scotland? I seem to forget.
40 posted on 02/24/2004 2:58:07 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Robert Teesdale
But lots of effort and time and money has been put into attempting to prevent Mr. Gibson from even making the movie, let alone showing it.

Could you provide some information on these efforts?

41 posted on 02/24/2004 2:58:30 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Robert Teesdale
It certainly eliminates the objection he survived and was up and about 3 days later.
42 posted on 02/24/2004 2:58:34 PM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: Spok
"I suspect that people who complain that the movie is too violent," ...have never heard of Quentin Tarantino, or they only approve of violence when it's gratuitous and totally pointless.

Please provide support for your belief that the same people who don't complain about the violence in Tarantino movies, etc., are the same people saying that the Passion is too violent.

43 posted on 02/24/2004 3:02:34 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Robert Teesdale
I suspect that people who complain that the movie is too violent, are somewhat ignorant of the facts of life. I want to ask them, what do you think you'd look like after a few hours of scourging and crucifixion? Oversensitive dilettantes.

I'm perfectly aware that open-heart surgery is a bloody, disgusting mess too, but that doesn't mean that I'd want to watch such a procedure for a couple of hours.

44 posted on 02/24/2004 3:05:43 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
The difficulty Mel Gibson had - as the man who made "Braveheart" and "The Patriot" - in finding a distributor, is a good example. How'd you like to be Mel Gibson's distributor?

The efforts of the ADL and other organizations to slander the film are another.

What's your point?
45 posted on 02/24/2004 3:17:14 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Ichneumon
Then don't watch open-heart surgery. No one is compelling you to either watch that, or the Passion.

But complaining that a realistic depiction of Roman execution is "too bloody" makes about as much sense as complaining that a realistic depiction of open-heart surgery is "too bloody".
46 posted on 02/24/2004 3:18:53 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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To: Ichneumon
I'm perfectly aware that open-heart surgery is a bloody, disgusting mess too, but that doesn't mean that I'd want to watch such a procedure for a couple of hours.


And you have a choice not to watch. But why would you critique something that you wouldn't watch.
47 posted on 02/24/2004 3:23:48 PM PST by mlmr (Everything is getting better and better!)
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To: elbucko
...the inspiration came that compelled the Founding Fathers to prohibit "Cruel and Unusual Punishment"...

I assume their inspiration was English drawing and quartering.

For a description see Coke's speech in the Gunpowder Plot trial in 1606: http://www.shakespeare.com/Today/0127.html

A traitor...shall...be drawn to the place of execution from his prison, as being not worthy any more to tread upon the face of the earth whereof he was made: also for that he hath been retrograde to nature, therefore is he drawn backward at a horse-tail. And whereas God hath made the head of man the highest and most supreme part, as being his chief grace and ornament, he must be drawn with his head declining downward, and lying so near the ground as may be, being thought unfit to take benefit of the common air...

Or read Catherine Drinker Bowen's excellent biography of Coke, The Lion and the Throne.

Or see Braveheart. Mel Gibson playing William Wallace as a Christ figure.

48 posted on 02/24/2004 3:24:30 PM PST by omega4412
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To: Ichneumon; Spok
Nice try, but you're asking him to prove a negative.

Why don't you try a Google search for any of the negative reviewers of the Passion and refer us to reviews where they objected to the gratuitous violence in pop culture movies.

49 posted on 02/24/2004 3:26:22 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: omega4412
I've read The Lion and the Throne. An excellent look at Coke, and the life and laws of his time. What a story!
50 posted on 02/24/2004 3:35:05 PM PST by Robert Teesdale
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