A closer reading of the Kay report tells a very different story (WMD ALERT)

Star Newspapers (Chicago) ^ | Thursday, February 26, 2004 | Christopher S. McNeil

[Joe_October]

... And is Kay authorized to spend a billion dollars? Or is Kay authorized to write a little report?

[Joe_October]

Liberals crying about spending other people's money. It doesn't get any funnier than that.

[Just mythoughts]

Kay is beginning to sound like Ritter.

We have recently learned that all this bunch have been bugged by everybody and his brother.

Hillry's questions of Kay at that most holy senate hearing, was about why he quit.

At this point it is looking more like WEAPONS of MASS CONFUSION!

[Criminal Number 18F]

There are a lot of resources at the Carnegie Endowment here. The actual Kay report, or Kay's public, unclassified speech on it, to which I will make many references, is here [cia.gov].

You said, repeatedly:

Im waiting.

1. First, there is an apostrophe in "I'm." Illiteracy is always unimpressive. Illiteracy joined with petulance is indicative of childish thinking. No one respects childish thinking -- even children are expected to outgrow it.

2. Second, nothing in life is accomplished by whining and waiting for people to bring things to you. Stop acting like a welfare leech and go get them yourself -- works for the rest of us.

Now, let's look at some of the particulars that "ScreamingFist" wants delivered with his welfare check, dope, Twinkies, and lottery tickets:

• network of laboratories
  Verbatim from Kay's Interim Report [cia.gov]: "A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research."

  Hot tip: intelligence agencies don't run aspirin manufacturing.

• "prison laboratory"
  Verbatim again: " A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN." And elsewhere in the report, the chilling implication that the Iraqis didn't just have this facility, but that they used it: "Additional information is beginning to corroborate reporting since 1996 about human testing activities using chemical and biological substances, but progress in this area is slow given the concern of knowledgeable Iraqi personnel about their being prosecuted for crimes against humanity."

• "new research in... biological weapons"
  Verbatim from Kay: "New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN."

• "Actual live biological weapons"
  Verbatim: "Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons."

  I understand that words are too much for welfare-dependent children, so here's a picture of 97 vials of biological agents seized from a scientist's home -- and here's the source document [both cia.gov]. Exactly as described in the letter... still waiting? Yeah, probably....

• "Documents and equipment to develop nuclear weapons"
  You dismiss this as "your local library. Order off internet." That's really deep thinking... not. Here's what Kay actually said: "Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS)". Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact, and look up centrifugal uranium enrichment on the net. Then order some of the equipment... Get it through your skull that this is not a high school science lab we're talking about here.

• "Specially developed airplanes, designed to spray anthrax out of a small device on the underside of the plane."
  To which you said: Spare me, I can draw anything on paper and call it a plan. First, I doubt you could plan much of anything, on paper or otherwise. But the Iraqis could. What Kay actually said about the UAVs was: "A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of  500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit." And elsewhere, more detail: " two UAV programs that were working in parallel, one at Ibn Fernas and one at al-Rashid Air Force Base. Ibn Fernas worked on the development of smaller, more traditional types of UAVs in addition to the conversion of manned aircraft into UAVs....All these systems had declared ranges of less than 150km. Several Iraqi officials stated that the RPV-20 flew over 500km on autopilot in 2002...Additional work is also focusing on the payloads and intended use for these UAVs.... Iraq's interest before the Gulf War in attempting to convert a MIG-21 into an unmanned aerial vehicle to carry spray tanks capable of dispensing chemical or biological agents, attention is being paid to whether any of the newer generation of UAVs were intended to have a similar purpose. This remains an open question." Once again the Kay report backs up the letter writer and makes you look stupid -- at least according Forrest Gump's Mama's stupidity test. Kay's people saw, touched, and photographed the actual UAV's -- not plans. Yet you accuse them of fantasizing... that's rich.

• "several vials of live biological weapons that could be used to replicate and mass produce toxins to kill humans "within one week."
  Your reply is again the petulant-baby "Im waiting." Waaaah. Well, here's Kay verbatim again: "The scientists discussed the development of improved, simplified fermentation and spray drying capabilities for the simulant Bt that would have been directly applicable to anthrax, and one scientist confirmed that the production line for Bt could be switched to produce anthrax in one week if the seed stock were available."

• "Saddam could have ordered...his military to spray such toxins ... with only one week's notice!"
  Your dishonest whine, of which I'm now really, really tired: "The airplanes that don't exist? Right." I've already pointed out that Mr Kay's team saw the actual UAV's, not plans. Just cause you're a phony without accomplishments in the physical world, don't assume everyone else is. Do yourself a favor, and look things up... or get someone to do it for you.

• "the scientists caught holding these weapons ... admitted that there were large stockpiles of such weapons....."
  You respond with a smart-ass: "Sure they did. Well, here's what the cautious Kay said: "The scientist who concealed the vials containing this [biological] agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache.".

• "Additionally, David Kay estimates that out of Iraq's 130 known storage sites, only 10 have been properly searched."
  You reply in the non-sequitur of the week: "Then why did Kay come back and say there are no weapons?" As the complete report documents, he didn't say that at all. You are the one saying it. And in the face of the evidence. Here's what Kay said: "there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined. As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous." Once again, the letter writer's veracity is proven, and yours is ... not.

• The story reports, "U.S. forces discovered seven pounds of cyanide
  Your response to this: Cyanide is NOT a weapon of mass destruction. It is good for killing prisoners in jail cells. Well, this tells me another detail about you -- you're not a vet. The entire class of chemical weapons known as blood agents (particularly Hydrogen Cyanide, AC in the military chem agent code, and Cyanogen Chloride, CK) are cyanides. (See US Army Field Manual 3-9, US Navy Publication P-467, US Air Force Manual 355-7, "Potential Military Chemical/Biological Agents and Compounds," December 12, 1990, chapter 2, p. 26). A particular problem with AC is that it can penetrate American gas masks. Other cyanides are easily converted into these cyanide weapons, for example, mercuric cyanide is often used in shells with a reagent that will cause it to form AC when the shell is detonated. For a little more on this see the OSD's Gulf War Glossary.

More recently, talking to Congress, Kay said of the Iraqi nuclear program, "They started building new buildings, renovating it, hiring some new staff and bringing them together. Fortunately -- and they ran a few physics experiments, re-run -- re-ran experiments they had actually run in the '80s. Fortunately from my point of view, Operation Iraqi Freedom intervened, and we don't know how or how fast that would have gone ahead."

I guess we could have waited for proof. Just like people like you convinced Clinton to let Bin Laden go, let's wait for proof -- which Bin Laden provided, in due course.

I don't expect I got through your thick skull. I really just posted this for the other people who are in this thread. You've made it clear that you are too lazy to find read the documents, which are a click away, and possibly too stupid to understand them if you did. "Waaaah! Im waiting. I need the comic book version... too many words!"

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[CyberAnt]

Well .. I hate to break it to ya, but CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED. The House brings impeachment articles - when they are voted upon and there are enough votes (which there were) - IMPEACHMENT TAKES PLACE! It's the Senate who determines if the person will be removed from office - that's all.

CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED - he just wasn't removed from office. The very same thing happened to Andrew Johnson. He was impeached, but managed to hold on by 1 vote from being removed from office.

[Criminal Number 18F]

I had a few comments on screamingfist's Dudley Dursley meets David Kay post. (If the name Dudley Dursley doesn't quite click, he's the fat, dumb cousin in the Harry Potter books & movies). See my post above.

The "cyanide is not a weapon" was particularly rich, as AC was one of the keys to Soviet war planning in the Central Region. And all the Iraqi generals went to Soviet staff schools.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[Criminal Number 18F]

Well .. I hate to break it to ya, but CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED

Er, in my post I said, Clinton was impeached, but acquitted (you are right, technically, it's not an acquittal but 'not removed from office.') But you are the one, aren't you, who said only Clinton had been impeached? I just wanted to bring up the parallel case of Johnson, A.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[CyberAnt]

You're right .. I had forgotten about Johnson, but I was having a conversation with someone else on another thread and they brought up Andrew Johnson. After discussing it, we agreed on what impeachment is, who does it, what the Senate's role is, and who was impeached.

[ScreamingFist]

"First, there is an apostrophe in "I'm." Illiteracy is always unimpressive. Illiteracy joined with petulance is indicative of childish thinking. No one respects childish thinking -- even children are expected to outgrow it.

Second, nothing in life is accomplished by whining and waiting for people to bring things to you. Stop acting like a welfare leech and go get them yourself -- works for the rest of us.
Now, let's look at some of the particulars that "ScreamingFist" wants delivered with his welfare check, dope, Twinkies, and lottery tickets:"


LOL, that's about all I need to read to know your opinion isn't worth diddly, and that you're nothing more than a petulant little girl throwing a temper tantrum.

[ScreamingFist]

The "cyanide is not a weapon" was particularly rich, as AC was one of the keys to Soviet war planning in the Central Region. And all the Iraqi generals went to Soviet staff schools.

Yada yada. During the cold war the Soviet Union was THOUGHT to be planning to use hydrogen cyanide as a "blitzkrieg" weapon to clear a path through the opposing front line so they wouldn't have to use REAL weapons of mass distruction, like nukes and biologicals. Try to get it right if you're going to pretend to be an authority.

[ScreamingFist]

"Well, this tells me another detail about you -- you're not a vet"

Not everyone is so arrogant that they feel the need to advertise their service to the country on their about page.
Read through your all inclusive list and show me the "eminent threat" that Kay was sent to find, that IS the reason we went to Iraq, and your huffing and puffing and juvenile insults don't change that fact.

[solo gringo]

Like Rush said never let facts get in the way of a good story.The Demo-cracks are trying to pull Nixon down in the gutter with Clinton

[Bigun]

PING!!!

[Criminal Number 18F]

OK, so --

1. You still won't go read the Kay report yourself. Why not? Lazy, afraid of what you'll find, or too many big words?

2. You're still illiterate. "Eminent" is not "imminent" -- neither of which, by the way, was part of Bush's war justification. He said it was important to strike before there was an imminent (not eminent, which is a whole different word!) threat. He said there was no imminent threat. Bush bashers -- mostly the Left and the handful of remaining fascist-wannabee Patsies -- have pretended, as you do, that he said the opposite. Liar, again.

3. You're dead wrong about cyanide as a chemical weapon. I even posted a reference to one of the many, many, sources that proves you wrong. Now you try to move the goal posts -- your original claim was that cyanide wasn't a WMD or WMD related. As I pointed out, there is an entire class of chemical agents that are cyanides. I concluded that you're not a vet based on your ignorance of this fact that is taught in all services' (even the Coast Guard's) basic training, and annually refreshed. Also, since about 1980 the services have required almost all entrants to be high school graduates, which implies a certain level of reading and writing ability not evident in your material.

I showed you the specifics you so petulantly demanded, and you responded with one lie (your attempt to sidle out of your previous position on AC as a chemical weapon) and numerous ad hominem attacks spread across three semi-coherent posts. You're a liar, several times over, and not too bright. You have yet to post a single source for any of your assertions, except your own mind... and nobody is going to be impressed by the output of that.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[CyberAnt]

I do so agree! They are using the usual "everybody does it" theme to try to make Clinton's impeachment seem trivel.

[ScreamingFist]

"You still won't go read the Kay report yourself. Why not? Lazy, afraid of what you'll find, or too many big words?"

Actually I found your synapsis of the Kay report illuminating, but your girly insults didn't help the presentation in the least.

"He said it was important to strike before there was an imminent (not eminent, which is a whole different word!) threat."

If Bush and the state department had said we were going to Iraq to stomp a footprint square in the middle of radical Islam, instead of implying that a threat of real WMD's existed, I wouldn't have slightest problem agreeing with you. I don't like smoke and mirrors, unlike you.

"You're dead wrong about cyanide as a chemical weapon."

I said cyanide wasn't a WMD. How was Iraq going to deliver it to the US, launch artillery shells over the Atlantic, fly it over in their dreaded RC airplanes?

"I showed you the specifics you so petulantly demanded"

Nah, you showed me a bunch of stuff from the unclassified Kay report available off the internet. Here's a clue, if the Bush administration didn't think this to be a problem, they wouldn't have had the head of the CIA answering questions about the FAILURE of our Iraq intelligence.

[ScreamingFist]

"You're a liar, several times over, and not too bright."

And FR is filled with posers like you who haven't been any closer to a battlefield than ROTC and the internet. Your mommy is calling....

[Criminal Number 18F]

And FR is filled with posers like you who haven't been any closer to a battlefield than ROTC and the internet.

You just don't get it. You are supposed to apologize for the old lies that I caught you in, before you launch new ones.

There are enough FReepers who know who I really am. Some have even seen my "I love me" wall with all my awards and junk. Some were even there when I got some of them. And, sorry, never was in ROTC. Hey, maybe you were one of the "outside agitators" who burned the building down at Kent State?

You can bash me as much as you like, but you have not defended, retracted or supported the falsehoods in your inital post. You're the one who started this by posting a childish, petulant rant about how you were unimpressed with others quoting the Kay report, of which you still appear innocent of any understanding. Of course, you threw in a few DNC-inspired pokes at the Administration. Hey, if you hate Bush and Cheney, you'll love Kerry and Graham or whomever. It's a free country and you can vote for them, if you're registered. Or you can write in Pat or Franco or whoever you guys like.

You're wrong about the Kay report, and I showed you exactly where you were wrong. You've always been welcome to cite evidence backing up your positions, but you haven't. We both know that you can't, because your positions are unsupported by any evidence. You know they are, because you made them up on the spot.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[ScreamingFist]

"You can bash me as much as you like, but you have not defended, retracted or supported the falsehoods in your inital post."

Ok CN18F, I'll try to restate my premise, that the US did not find WMD's in Iraq.

1. "A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research."

According to the U.S. Department of Defense, more than ten countries have, or are developing biological warfare programs. According to the Office of Technology Assessment and U.S. Senate committee hearings, the number is about 17 and includes: Russia, Israel, Egypt, China, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria and North Korea.

It doesn't suprise me, nor should it have surprised Kay, that the inspecters found equipment that COULD be used for CBW research, frankly I'm amazed they haven't found more.

2."A prison laboratory complex, POSSIBLY used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN." "Additional information is beginning to corroborate reporting since 1996 about human testing activities using chemical and biological substances, but progress in this area is slow given the concern of knowledgeable Iraqi personnel about their being prosecuted for crimes against humanity."

Is this really some kind of earth shaking statement? It's well known that Saddam is/was a madman that gassed his own people and tortured prisoners, political enemies and their families.

3."New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN."

If you've been keeping up with current events it's apparent that anybody can produce ricin, so that's a no starter. Was the research on CCHF and aflatoxin on paper or were the Iraqi's actually producing bioweapons? I'm waiting to find out, but I won't hold my breath.

4."Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons."

Because many of these reference strains were originally acquired from the good old USA itself, I don't find this surprising.

5."Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS)".

Read this sentence closely, it says nothing. What type of equipment? How many different types of equipment are "useful" for the enrichment of uranium? How many are dual use or used in other types of research?
What kind of documents? Your local library has documents that could be "useful" for determining how to enrich uranium.

6."A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit."
"Kay's people saw, touched, and photographed the actual UAV's -- not plans. Yet you accuse them of fantasizing... that's rich."

OK, you got me on this one. I didn't know they had produced prototypes. I found the statement interesting in that, apparently, it's quite alright and perfectly acceptable for them to develope and test UAVS with a range of 150km or less. Big surprise, the iraqis cheated. Earth shaking indeed.

7. "The scientists discussed the development of improved, simplified fermentation and spray drying capabilities for the simulant Bt that would have been directly applicable to anthrax, and one scientist confirmed that the production line for Bt could be switched to produce anthrax in one week if the seed stock were available."

Well, err, yes. According to the U.S. Department of Defense, more than ten countries have, or are developing biological warfare programs. Which country should we go to war with next Russia, Israel, Egypt, China, Iran, Libya, Syria or North Korea?

8."The scientist who concealed the vials containing this [biological] agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache."

OK. I'm waiting, but not holding my breath.

9. "there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined. As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous."

Like the Kay team didn't know this before starting the search? Was this some great secret? Hardly. And yes, I'm sure Kay IS hoping something turns up, because there sure as heck isn't any smoking gun in the rest of his report.

10. U.S. forces discovered seven pounds of cyanide.

If you have a delivery and disbursal system cyanide in its various forms can be considered an area effect weapon, just like cluster bombs, multiple launch rocket systems, and aircraft ripple bombing. While cyanide might be useful for killing clustered civilians it is far less effective against combat forces equipped and trained for chemical weapon attacks.

By invading Iraq the US has established an American footprint square in the middle of the radical islamic countries. With the availability of ports in the south of Iraq as well as air support all the way to Turkiye in the north, we now have the capabilities to strike anywhere in the mideast, without having to resort to our "arab allies".
I don't have the slightest problem with this. I DO have a problem with the administration blowing smoke up our rears and after reading Perle and Frum's book I am starting to believe this is the case.