Between The Sexes (Intersex Children)

Time Magazine ^ | 02.27.04 | Christine Gorman and Wendy Cole

[Sender]

"Mommy, am I a boy or a girl?"

Typical two-party system reasoning. Always X or Y, never Z.

[Mr. Bird]

If you know any cattle farmers, ask them about freemartins. It's the cow equivalent to this discussion.

[ahayes]

Found it!

"Pregnancy in a Woman with a Y Chromosome after Removal of an Ovarian Dysgerminoma," Gynecologic Oncology, 79, 519-521 (2000).

The woman developed a tumor in one ovary (common in woman with chimeric ovaries) and it was removed and she received chemotherapy. They found a mixture of ovarian and testicular tissue in the cancerous ovary. The other ovary appeared normal. They did a karyotype and found she had a 20% 46,XX/80% 46,XY genotype. They suggested she have her other ovary removed, but she wanted to keep it in spite of possible future cancer. Nine months after surgery she got pregnant and gave birth to a normal baby boy.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I recall reading years ago about a case (in Russia, I think) of an intersexed person who had both fathered a child, and given birth to one.

[VxH]

>>I don't think this is a mutation in the usual sense of the word,

All genetic traits are mutations.

[js1138]

All genetic traits are mutations.

What can I say to that?

[wardaddy]

I thought a true hermaphrodite.....basically only urban legand....was where someone had a functioning penis and vagina and uterus/fallopians/ovaries.

The poor child in question here seems to me to have been a biologically compromised male.

[John O]

What part of "hormonal conditions" did you not understand.

And what causes hormnonal conditions? XX and XY. Of course sometimes they go awry but the blueprints for biology are always the genes. (The testicles develop because they are programmed to develop in the genes. then they produce testosterone. Hormones always follow genes)

[VxH]

>>Typical two-party system reasoning. Always X or Y, never Z.


Typical Socialist reasoning: Steal reproductive resources from X and Y so that deviant Z can reproduce.

[VxH]

>> the truly complex cases are not able to reproduce, with or without medical intervention.

Let's take the "less" complex examples which ~are able to reproduce with medical intervention.

Should members of society who do not have this genetic mutation be forced to expend reproductive resources so that the mutant genome can reproduce?

[Mr. Bird]

Are you asking if it is advisable to provide intervention necessary for reproduction in such individuals? If we were scientists studying fruit flies, probably not. But we are dealing with full-fledged human beings, and I think propagating ones genes (for better or worse) is a fundamental human right. Similar questions surround individuals with Huntington's disease and other conditions that are passed to offspring.

And if you weren't asking that, can you clarify?

[ahayes]

I don't think you really understand what is going on here.

The women in the articles that I listed and most of the other people spoken of in these threads are chimeric. This means that some cells in their bodies are XX cells and some are XY. The genotypes of these cells are completely normal. Typically chimeras originate from two embryos fusing in the womb, or, in two of the cases I mentioned, from transfer of embryonic cells from a fraternal twin to the sister. Depending on when these cells are transferred and where they end up there are different results. The woman I spoke about who is 80% XY and 20% XX probably is only female phenotypically because she resulted from the fusion of a male and female embryo, and the cells from the female embryo happened to develop into the reproductive system. Her ovaries are not completely normal, but they were normal enough to allow her to give birth to a normal boy.

Chimeric people have completely normal genotypes. There are other causes of indeterminate sex that involve genetic mutations that might be passed on to offspring (there's an intriguing article I can look up if anyone is interested covering half a dozen cases of reverse-sexed XX men and one hermaphroditic XX individual who opted for reconstructive surgery to a male phenotype--all in one big inbred family!), but generally individuals in these cases are sterile.

For the most part these people are not "mutants," and their genes are just as good as yours.

[BossLady]

I would love to read the articles you mentioned...Freepmail me if you like :)

[WOSG]

Yes. Interesting article but I do believe you are right. There is really no more 'complexity' to this than to Down's syndrome or Turette's or those born with different personality profiles.

I do think there is an agenda to normalize the abnormal here, for political reasons.

[anniegetyourgun]

That comment I lifted out reminds me of someone suggesting that it's difficult to know the actual racial makeup of an albino African! Yes, it's all just too complex!

[WOSG]

"I think propagating ones genes (for better or worse) is a fundamental human right. "

It is oxymoronic to construct "rights" that involve the picking of someone else's pockets. Our rights to our own life, liberty and property precede the claims of others.

If you are infertile for whatever reason you DONT have the "right" to socialized medicine to cure that condition. Go that route and we'd have an in-vitro fertilization program costing billions. (All next door to an abortion clinic killing babies every day, no doubt).

[Iberian]

Tell me it will grow up a Republican, Please.

[Iberian]

I am confused. Just tell me that this child will be a republican.

[nmh]

"The surgical team had found rudimentary ovarian and Fallopian-tube tissue in Kyle's body."

The first group of butchers obviously wasn't too thorough. To scare people into believing that if this issue isn't resolved, cancer will result should be grounds for a law suit. That's ridiculous. Once again our glorious allopathic medial people screw up another little person.

[ahayes]

Who said anything about socialized medicine?