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The Nation-State Is Finished
thenewamerican.com ^ | February 23, 2004 | William F. Jasper

Posted on 02/28/2004 6:34:36 AM PST by B4Ranch

"The Nation-State Is Finished" by William F. Jasper

Robert Bartley, a closet one-worlder at the WSJ, used his newspaper’s "conservative" clout to seduce American business leaders into sacrificing U.S. sovereignty for trade. ‘‘What in blazes can President Bush be thinking?" That has been the general response — on talk radio and in media surveys, Internet postings and letters-to-the-editor — of many current and former Bush supporters angered and confused by the president’s immigration proposals. These folks would not have been surprised by the president’s outrageous announcement on January 7 or his remarks the following week at the Summit of the Americas in Mexico if they had been paying attention to his immigration themes from the get-go. While still governor of Texas, Bush had already indicated his tilt toward open borders between the U.S. and Mexico. However, like most well-coached politicians, he knew better than to play this grating chord to his conservative core constituency.

The Bush amnesty plan (which the president insists is not an amnesty) calls for legalizing millions of illegal aliens, whom President Bush, in deference to the canons of political correctness, calls "undocumented workers." It also calls for increasing the flow of "temporary" foreign workers into the country, as well as upping our annual quotas for legal immigrants. All of which would prove disastrous for our already overwhelmed immigration and border patrol agencies. Bush’s proposed immigration fiasco did not originate with President Bush, however, or even with his "Amigo Numero Uno," Mexican President Vicente Fox, who endorses this new plan for open borders. This suicidal migration scheme would be more appropriately christened the Robert L. Bartley Open Borders Plan, and the Monterrey Summit of the Americas might well have been dubbed the Robert L. Bartley Memorial Summit, both in honor of the late Wall Street Journal editor who championed the death of nationhood.

Bartley’s Legacy

Mr. Bartley, who passed away on December 10, 2003, is hugely responsible for promoting the idea of open borders among America’s business, academic and political elites. For 30 years, he used the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal to redefine American political and economic conservatism and to undermine a key conservative and constitutional principle: the protection of national sovereignty against internationalist encroachment. One of Bartley’s signal triumphs has been a general acceptance by many of these elites — especially the neoconservatives who have hijacked the Republican Party — of the need to sacrifice national sovereignty, supposedly to promote trade. Thus, the Journal’s news and editorial pages consistently promoted NAFTA, the European Union, the World Trade Organization, the FTAA and many other internationalist schemes.

"I think the nation-state is finished," Bartley once told Peter Brimelow, a former colleague of his at the Journal. "I think [Kenichi] Ohmae is right," he continued. Kenichi Ohmae is not a household name, except to avid readers of the Wall Street Journal, Foreign Affairs, The Economist and the like. Mr. Ohmae, an economic guru and prophet of regionalism, is the author of such works as The Borderless World and The End of the Nation State: The Rise of Regional Economies. In his 1993 essay, "The Rise of the Region State," for Foreign Affairs, house journal of the Council on Foreign Relations, Ohmae declared: "The nation state has become an unnatural, even dysfunctional, unit for organizing human activity and managing economic endeavor in a borderless world."

Peter Brimelow was understandably stunned by Bartley’s candid admission. He states:

I was thunderstruck. I knew the fans of the Journal’s editorial page, overwhelmingly conservative patriots, had no inkling of this. It would make a great Wall Street Journal front-page story: Wall Street Journal Editor Revealed As Secret One-Worlder — Consternation Among Faithful — Is Pope Catholic?

Yes, Robert Bartley, the supposed paragon of conservatism, was indeed a secret one-worlder, and this was evident many years ago to alert readers of the Journal. In more recent years, Bartley began inching out of the one-world closet and showing his real globalist colors. In an editorial for July 2, 2001, entitled "Open NAFTA Borders? Why Not?" he announced the Journal’s support for dumping U.S. sovereignty and transforming the United States into a vassal of a hemispheric superstate modeled after the European Union. Bartley wrote:

Reformist Mexican President Vicente Fox raises eyebrows with his suggestion that over a decade or two NAFTA should evolve into something like the European Union, with open borders for not only goods and investment but also people. He can rest assured that there is one voice north of the Rio Grande that supports his vision. To wit, this newspaper....

Indeed, during the immigration debate of 1984 we suggested an ultimate goal to guide passing policies — a constitutional amendment: "There shall be open borders."

Get that? Mr. Bartley was bragging that he and the Journal — that supposed bastion of conservatism — were pushing for open borders 20 years ago! Not to put too fine a point on the matter, but that is another way of saying that Bartley and company were (are) pushing for the abolition of the United States of America. Which is to say — and there’s no way around it — that Bartley and his WSJ coterie were (and are) engaged in subversion and treason, no matter how respectable they may appear or how cleverly they couch their verbal assaults on nationhood.

What makes the Bartley-WSJ globalist scheme so dangerous is not so much the proposal itself (how many Americans want to abolish our borders and merge with other nations?), but the use of deception and conspiracy to foist it on an unsuspecting public. The open borders advocates could openly and honorably lay their plan before their fellow citizens and explain it something like this: "In our globalizing economy, the political constraints of our individual nation states have outgrown their usefulness and are impeding economic progress and prosperity for all our people. We think it is time to unleash the productive potential of the people of our hemisphere by eliminating national boundaries and allowing the free movement of peoples and trade. Of course, this will mean doing away with the U.S. Constitution and our national sovereignty and constructing some as-yet-unknown and undefined regional system of governance that would reflect a mixture of features of our U.S. system and those of 33 Latin American and Caribbean countries."

But the Bartley claque of internationalists at the Journal knew that a forthright appeal of this sort would have about as much chance of flying as a penguin in lead underwear. They knew they would lose hands down if the supposed merits of their plan were carefully scrutinized and publicly debated. So, for the most part, they have cloaked their true objectives in rhetoric extolling "free peoples," "free markets" and "free trade," while gradually insinuating their plan of hemispheric integration into their reporting and editorials.

Fronting for the Power Elite

Mr. Bartley’s recent death brought forth a flood of eulogies from the high and mighty. President Bush eulogized him as a "giant of journalism" and noted that he had recently bestowed on Bartley the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Leading editors, writers and network television news anchors proclaimed him the oracle of conservatism and a key opinion molder who shaped modern economic thought. But Mr. Bartley’s vision and influence were not his own; he was an agent, not a principal. He was able to man the helm at the Journal for three decades because he faithfully and effectively retailed to an essential clientele the propaganda of America’s one-world Insiders. Robert Bartley (a.k.a. Mr. Conservative to unsuspecting Journal readers) was a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and Trilateral Commission, as well as an attendee of the super-secretive Bilderberg meetings. These are the premier organizations that have been undermining American sovereignty and promoting world government for many decades.

Bartley’s main task, which he ably fulfilled, was to gradually redefine conservatism in such a way that his readers would not realize that they had been led onto a completely new track, eventually taking them to a destination they would have rejected if they had gotten their direction from the Left. Which meant that the Journal would continue to function as the "conservative" voice of Pratt House, the New York headquarters of the CFR, just as the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, etc. serve as the CFR Establishment’s "liberal" voice. The Journal editorial staff is loaded up with CFR members: Daniel Henninger, Robert S. Greenberger, George Melloan, Gerald Seib, Amity Shlaes and John Bussey, to name a few. Karen Elliott House, publisher of the Journal and president of its parent corporation, Dow Jones & Company, is also a CFR member. As is Dow Jones CEO Peter Kann. Dow Jones is a corporate member of the CFR. Editorial page editor Paul Gigot, a former CFR member, is a stalwart internationalist nonetheless and one of the most ardent promoters of open immigration.

One of Bartley’s early undertakings was to boost a group of ex-Trotskyite socialists (who were still internationalists and hadn’t even shed all of their socialist inclinations) as the new spokesmen of conservatism. Now known as neoconservatives, these intellectuals hold dominant sway in the Republican Party, the Federal Reserve and many of the Beltway think tanks and conservative organizations.

In his eulogy to Bartley in The Weekly Standard, Irving Kristol (CFR), the renowned "godfather of neoconservatism," noted the pivotal role that Bartley played in launching the neocon revolution. Kristol recalled that he was editor of a young and little-known magazine called The Public Interest when Bartley came to interview him in the late 1960s for the WSJ. "I was amazed," Kristol wrote, when Bartley said he was an avid reader of the magazine. The Journal’s promotional piece on Kristol and The Public Interest was a big help to the fledgling publication, but that was just the start of a much bigger assist. Bartley also gave Kristol a regular column in the Journal, which Kristol used to promote neoconservatism (internationalism) as a replacement for traditional nationalist, constitutionalist conservatism.

Mr. Kristol was not alone. The Journal began regularly to feature one-world scribblings from the CFR brain trust (besides those on its own staff), such as the January 1, 2000 op-ed entitled "A World Without a Country?" by Henry Grunwald (CFR). Accenting a favorite theme of Kenichi Ohmae, Grunwald predicted that the "nation-state will undergo sharp limitations of its sovereignty" and that "just as the old, petty principalities had to dissolve into the wider nation-state, the nation-state will have to dissolve into wider structures."

On May 1, 1998, Bartley turned over a large chunk of editorial space to David Rockefeller, former chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank and chairman emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations and Trilateral Commission. The purpose of Mr. Rockefeller’s op-ed was an urgent appeal for support for the International Monetary Fund. Over the past six decades, the IMF has promoted socialism, waste, corruption, global inflation, national bankruptcy and a tidal wave of debt. Of course, the IMF also has been immensely profitable for politically connected banks and corporations, like Rockefeller’s, whose projects are funded by the IMF. And all in the name of "free market" economics. In his Journal op-ed, "Why We Need the IMF," Rockefeller argued: "In a globalized economy, everyone needs the IMF. Without the IMF, the world economy would not become an idealized fantasy of perfectly liquid, completely informed, totally unregulated capital markets." According to Rockefeller, "the IMF is the sovereign nations’ credit union," and U.S. taxpayers and the U.S. Congress should be willing to pump more billions of dollars into its tills.

The Regional Superstate

Along with the Council of the Americas (David Rockefeller, founder and honorary chairman), the Americas Society (David Rockefeller, chairman), the Forum of the Americas (David Rockefeller, founder), the Institute of International Economics (David Rockefeller, director and principal funder) and a number of similar organizations, the Bartley-CFR cabal at the Journal succeeded in selling the idea of regional economic and political convergence to the global business community, as a prelude to global convergence and global government under the UN. A principal part of their strategy in preparing the way for establishing the FTAA has been to convince the U.S. financial and business communities of the supposedly overwhelmingly positive attributes of the regional economic and political convergence occurring in the European Union.

In furtherance of this strategy, the Journal and its one-world confederates promoted economist Robert Mundell, the "father of the euro." When Mundell was awarded the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1999, the Journal could not help breaking forth in rhapsodic acclamation. "For a generation now these columns have preached economics from the gospel by Robert Mundell," the paper crowed in its lead editorial for October 14, 1999. The Journal praised Mundell as "the chief intellectual proponent of the euro" and the savant most responsible for winning acceptance of a common currency for Europe. The Journal then devoted nearly one-third of a page to reprinting a 1990 essay by Mundell advocating a world central bank, including this large blow-up quote: "We have a better opportunity to create a world central bank with a stable international currency than at any previous time in history."

This should have provided all the clues any careful reader would need to understand the globalist game plan. Mundell and the Journal were admitting that, in their vision, the European Central Bank (ECB) was just a steppingstone to a world central bank. The ECB is using its formidable powers to destroy the residual national sovereignty of the countries of the European Union and bring them under the control of one-world Eurocrats in Brussels. A world central bank would do the same thing, but on a global scale. And remember, the Journal says Mr. Mundell’s word is gospel. The end result of the Mundell-Journal vision would be a world economic cartel leading to world political control under the United Nations.

Seen in the light of the regionalist process described above, President Bush’s amnesty program and his proposals to increase our immigration quotas and temporary work visas take on additional frightening meaning. As harmful as they would be, in and of themselves, the truth is that these are merely part of a process that envisions still more radical schemes aimed ultimately at destroying our borders and merging the U.S. in a hemispheric region state. An article by Robert A. Pastor (CFR) in the January/February 2004 issue of Foreign Affairs shows where this process is headed. Mr. Pastor does not pretend to be a conservative; his left-wing bona fides are well known. He has long been associated with the Institute for Policy Studies, a think tank with close ties to the Soviet KGB and Castro’s DGI. His current Foreign Affairs essay, "North America’s Second Decade," calls for melding U.S. immigration and security policy with Canada and Mexico, in effect obliterating our borders. Pastor says that our security fears born of the 9-11 attacks should "serve as a catalyst for deeper integration. That would require new structures to assure mutual security, promote trade, and bring Mexico closer to the First World economies of its neighbors." This necessitates, he avers, "a redefinition of security that puts the United States, Mexico and Canada inside a continental perimeter."

"The European experience with integration has much to teach North American policymakers," he states. We must jettison our "outmoded conception of sovereignty," says Pastor. "Most important," says this left-wing Pratt House one-worlder, "the Department of Homeland Security should expand its mission to include continental security — a shift best achieved by incorporating Mexican and Canadian perspectives and personnel into its design and operation." That’s right, merge our new Bureau of Customs and Border Protection with Mexico’s military and law enforcement agencies, which are riddled with corrupt officials and paid agents of the drug cartels. That will surely enhance our homeland security against foreign terrorist groups!

Replay of EU Deception

The Bush administration is already headed in that direction, with much of the program outlined by Pastor faintly visible in the statements of Bush officials and the Special Conference on Hemispheric Security in Mexico last October, in which the U.S. participated. President Bush, along with Republican and Democrat leaders of Congress and the CFR choir in the major media, insist that these moves toward regional government constitute no threat to our national sovereignty. That is precisely what European politicians and their enablers told the peoples of Europe as the Common Market was morphing into the increasingly tyrannical superstate now known as the European Union.

Sir Peregrine Worsthorne has been one of the few prominent voices in Europe over the past few decades warning against the merger designs of the EU one-worlders. A regular columnist for London’s Sunday Telegraph, he protested in a 1991 column of the ongoing campaign of deception used by the EU advocates. "Twenty years ago, when the process began, there was no question of losing sovereignty," said Worsthorne. "That was a lie, or at any rate, a dishonest obfuscation."

However, it wasn’t until 2000 that documentation showing the depth of deception and the enormity of the lies by government officials began to seep out of sealed records. "What these papers revealed more starkly than ever before," says British journalist Christopher Booker, "was just how deliberately the Heath Government and the Foreign Office set out to conceal from the British people the Common Market’s true purpose. They were fully aware that it was intended to be merely the first step towards creating a politically united Europe, but they were determined to hide this away from view."

"For 40 years," says Booker, "British politicians have consistently tried to portray it [the Common Market and EU] to their fellow-citizens as little more than an economic arrangement: a kind of free-trading area primarily concerned with creating jobs and prosperity," dismissing and denying the charges by opponents that the emerging EU government unequivocally attacks national sovereignty.

There is no need for Americans to wait 40 years to find similar documentation of official lies and deception by the Clinton and Bush administrations concerning the FTAA plan to merge the Americas. By then it would be too late. We must not allow the neocons’ seductive siren song of "free trade" and "free markets" to dull our senses to the reality of their socialist-internationalist trap, which, when sprung, would kill nationhood as well as free trade and free markets. We already know everything we need to know to oppose this treasonous scheme with all legal and honorable means at our disposal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neocons to the Rescue! by William F. Jasper

Anticipating a hostile reaction to the Bush proposals from the conservatives who elected him, the Wall Street Journal and its internationalist allies moved quickly to shore up support and neutralize opposition.

Anticipating a hostile reaction to the Bush proposals from the conservative Republicans and Democrats who elected him, the Wall Street Journal and its internationalist allies moved quickly to shore up support and neutralize opposition. A January 12 Journal column by Tamar Jacoby (CFR) declared: "The Bush immigration plan is Reaganesque in its optimism." "What could be more conservative," asked Jacoby, "than encouraging the American dream, rewarding work, restoring the rule of law and enhancing our security?" Too bad the Bush plan does none of these.

Former Congressman and HUD Secretary Jack Kemp, one of the prized protégés of the Bartley-Kristol school of globalism and open borders, charged out of the starting gate on January 12 with a syndicated column entitled "Race to the Border." Kemp began his piece with a typical leftist ploy of labeling opponents of unlimited immigration as "xenophobes." The Bush plan, says Kemp, is "an excellent beginning" that "seeks to blend salutary economic policy with sound national security." The president should be commended for "bold leadership" on the issue, but he doesn’t go far enough, Kemp declares. He would like to see a detailed plan for speeding the border jumpers to full citizenship.

Kemp then invoked the supposed benediction of George Washington upon open borders, by quoting this most venerated Founding Father, to wit: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong." Kemp knows that is another deception. The key word here is "virtuous," indicating selectivity. Neither Washington nor any of the other founding patriots would have countenanced the total eradication of our borders as proposed under the Bush plan and the FTAA. "My opinion with respect to immigration," said Washington, "is that, except for mechanics and particular description of men and professions, there is no use in its encouragement." Alexander Hamilton stated: "The influx of foreigners must, therefore, tend to produce a heterogeneous compound; to change and corrupt the national spirit; to complicate and confound public opinion; to introduce foreign propensities. In the composition of society, the harmony of ingredients is all-important, and whatever tends to a discordant intermixture must have an injurious tendency." Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and other Founders expressed similar sentiments.

No, Kemp’s co-opting of George Washington is as disingenuous as his regular use of free market rhetoric to justify more New Deal/Big Government programs. His primary vehicle for spreading the neoconservative, one-world gospel is Empower America (EA), a Pratt House front for neocon Republicans. One of his co-directors at EA is his longtime boon companion William J. Bennett. Back in 1994, Kemp and Bennett teamed up with the leftists of the radical Hispanic lobby to campaign against California’s Proposition 187, a responsible initiative to deny welfare benefits to illegal aliens. Kemp and Bennett characterized Proposition 187 backers as bigots, racists and xenophobes. Californians passed Proposition 187 anyway. The other three co-directors at EA are William S. Cohen, Vin Weber and Jeanne Kirkpatrick — CFR members and internationalists all, not patriots in the mold of George Washington.


TOPICS: Mexico; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: akissingerplot; aliens; amishstdofliving; amnesty; autopiancrank; aztlan; bewarefalseprophets; bitterblacksmith; blamethemasons; blamethexenophobes; buchananlost; buildaburgers; buildawall; buyspam; centralbank; cfr; dualloyalties; enemyatthegates; european; europeanunion; ftaa; glassdrunkbyaliens; glasshalfempty; globalism; harmonization; homelandinsecurity; homelandsecurity; illigration; imacrank; imanutball; interdependence; invadeusplease; invasion; inyourdreams; ips; johnbirchsociety; meximerica; monterrey; morebsfromjbs; nafta; nationstate; oas; openborders; protectionistutopian; robertapastor; robertbartley; rockefellerrepublic; skullandcrossbones; trade; undocumented; ussovereignty; williamjenningsbryan; workers; wto
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1 posted on 02/28/2004 6:34:37 AM PST by B4Ranch
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To: SevenDaysInMay; Federalist 78; Happy2BMe; Jackie222; Squantos; river rat; Taxman; Brian Allen; ...
PING for discussion
2 posted on 02/28/2004 6:44:52 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: B4Ranch
The nation-state is obsolete, eh? Good to see the author has channelled Strobe Talbot.
3 posted on 02/28/2004 6:45:14 AM PST by William McKinley
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To: B4Ranch
Good article. I am fearful of this One-Worlder crap being shoved down the throat of an unsuspecting American public without any debate or assent (vote) of the American people whatsoever. If all the above is true, then there are some shadowy hands moving pieces around the board (and I usually don't go in for this tinfoil stuff).
4 posted on 02/28/2004 7:02:13 AM PST by DoctorMichael (Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.)
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To: William McKinley
The protection of national sovereignty cannot exist with uncontrolled open borders. That is the situation that the United States legislation is currently permitting.
5 posted on 02/28/2004 7:08:42 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: B4Ranch
This is an outstanding article. Our nation is under attack. It is just not by Islamic terrorists. The dedicated purpose of these United States is in a single word independence. How can a nation be independent without its sovereignity? How can you even have a nation without clearly understood borders? The invasion of the illegals on one hand and the export of jobs on the other hand serve the same purpose of destroying the structure and foundation on which our nation exists.

My fondness for Mr. Bartley and his editorial page rest upon one issue and one issue only. They knew that there was a serial rapist in the White House and of all the so called media elite they alone attempted to bring the American people the facts surrounding the criminality that defined the Clintons.

6 posted on 02/28/2004 7:32:59 AM PST by Biblebelter
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To: DoctorMichael
>I am fearful of this One-Worlder crap being shoved down the throat of an unsuspecting American public without any debate or assent (vote) of the American people whatsoever

Damn, was I sleeping
when we the people voted
to join the UN?!

7 posted on 02/28/2004 7:35:14 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: B4Ranch
He would like to see a detailed plan for speeding the border jumpers to full citizenship.

We supported Forbes in his flat tax initiative until it became clear that border control was not in his plans. We thought Pat Buchanan had the right border idea, but could not get with the rest of his program. We know Bush to be a man of character and compassion. And better than a Kerry by a mile but we better have this discussion in the halls of congress before this goes any farther.

One solution would be to annex Mexico and establish a well controlled border at Guatamala. (Mexico has already done this for us.) We could create about ten states who would likly vote for a constitutional ammendment to protect marriage, immigration would be free, but would go both ways and as US capital went sought to create wonderful warm weather locations for retirees and US schools and rule of law replaced what passes for same in Mexico, the need for immigration would finally be ended. The losers would be the corrupt elites of Mexico and the socialist elites here in the states.

8 posted on 02/28/2004 7:52:39 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: B4Ranch
"There is no need for Americans to wait 40 years to find similar documentation of official lies and deception by the Clinton and Bush administrations concerning the FTAA plan to merge the Americas. By then it would be too late. "

FTAA will be enacted in January of 2005, after which we will no longer have the ability to regulate ourselves, our borders and our trade. Meanwhile, our alledgedly conservative Republican leadership is playing around with things like the Defense of Marriage Act.

We argue the emotional hot-button conservative issues while the foundation of the republic itself is lost to the stroke of a pen.
9 posted on 02/28/2004 7:53:20 AM PST by Thisiswhoweare
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: KC_for_Freedom
Interesting solution.
11 posted on 02/28/2004 8:06:50 AM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: PAC67
>Damn, was I sleeping/when we the people voted/to join the UN?!
>> Don't be foolish. Joining the UN did not mean we agreed to give up our sovereignty.

I know. My point was
on some issues, our "leaders"
don't care how we'd vote . . .

12 posted on 02/28/2004 8:13:51 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: B4Ranch
"The European experience with integration has much to teach North American policymakers,"

What is learned however can be used for the betterment of our country in many different ways, more than just mimicking the European "experience".

13 posted on 02/28/2004 8:18:30 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: KC_for_Freedom
One solution would be to annex Mexico and establish a well controlled border at Guatamala. (snip)

The losers would be the corrupt elites of Mexico and the socialist elites here in the states.

I would much prefer that you gather up some of the poor English speaking folks in your own neighborhood and take them under your financial wing.

Annexing a country that doesn't share so much as a language commonality with us would be worse than having your mother in law inspecting, issuing the standards, the guidelines and approving your sexual habits with your wife. You would need an attorney and a term translator to understand what your mother in law was ordering.

Once annexing Mexico, which also doesn't share a language commonality with us, we would need a battery of attorneys and an army of translators with the United Nations demanding approval issuance on every agreement before and after conferencing could begin.

No Thank You, that is a solution which America cannot afford.
14 posted on 02/28/2004 8:19:24 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: KC_for_Freedom
"We supported Forbes in his flat tax initiative until it became clear that border control was not in his plans"

Source?

15 posted on 02/28/2004 8:19:38 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: EGPWS
The European experience with integration has resulted in a few countries showing the door to their illegal aliens who are not contributing to their society.

That is an experience which our globalist leadership isn't willing to consider yet.
16 posted on 02/28/2004 8:22:42 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: B4Ranch
The New Deal writ large?
17 posted on 02/28/2004 8:25:12 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: B4Ranch
The European experience with integration has resulted in a few countries showing the door to their illegal aliens who are not contributing to their society.

With integration however comes a mingling of Dogma, and with such a mingling with the USA could mean a degradation of such. Unless of course one feels there are faults in our Dogma relative to other existing Dogmas.

18 posted on 02/28/2004 8:28:26 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: EGPWS
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Beyond that, what do you consider our Dogma?

19 posted on 02/28/2004 8:39:39 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: Thisiswhoweare
"FTAA will be enacted in January of 2005, after which we will no longer have the ability to regulate ourselves, our borders and our trade."

I found it amazing that so many middle aged Americans of average intelligence supported NAFTA merely because their senators said to do so.

Am I amazed again that these same people are supporting The Free Trade of the Americas Act because our President say to do so? Astonishingly, yes I am!

What will it take for them to comprehend that this is exactly the same as opening our front and back doors to looters? While watching the initial days during our conquerance of Baghdad, I said to my wife, "That is what's happening in the US with the illegal immigrants. Freely gathering up everything they want, while we continue to push more free goods at them. Some day someone will get the bill for this 'good neighbor attitude" and find out we have overspent our budget." She just nodded her head, and agreed saying, "Yes, it will be us and the kids who will get stuck with the bill for the generosity of our liars, oops, leaders."
20 posted on 02/28/2004 8:39:52 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: KC_for_Freedom
That is what a nation-state would do IMO. What we would traditionally do.
Militarize our border and then use an inevitable conflict with the Mexican army as reason to invade and conquer.

That doesn't seem wise so perhaps we are not a nation-state in some way. But perhaps it will seem wise in the future- if we are still a nation-state and not some new entity.

21 posted on 02/28/2004 8:41:41 AM PST by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: jpsb; KC_for_Freedom
Source?

Every editorial author in conservative magazines covered this subject.
22 posted on 02/28/2004 8:42:37 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: mrsmith
The United Nations would never authorize an attack on a bordering country.

Why do you think they choose the US in which to place their headquarters? Those elite people don't like to get too close to the daily sufferings of the common people.
23 posted on 02/28/2004 8:46:14 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: tacticalogic
The New Deal writ large and a shiny new welcome mat at every border station.
24 posted on 02/28/2004 8:47:39 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: B4Ranch
So it should be easy to provide a source. Forbes was NOT an open border amnasty for illegals. And neither was he in favor of WTO and these other world government organizations. Also Forbes got very little support here at FR.
25 posted on 02/28/2004 8:47:51 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: tacticalogic
Beyond that, what do you consider our Dogma?

That IS our Dogma.

Did I say something that was prone to improper interpretation?

If so, I apologize for my errors.

26 posted on 02/28/2004 8:48:45 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: tacticalogic
"what do you consider our Dogma?"

This Dogma has been ridiculed, shattered and shunned in every NEA controlled educational institution in the United States for forty five years.

The majority of Americans are not even aware of its existance and the United States Supreme Court would strike it down should it become public knowledge.
27 posted on 02/28/2004 8:51:32 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: B4Ranch
Americans (including you) don't think it a wise act.
That is what is significant.
28 posted on 02/28/2004 8:51:49 AM PST by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: B4Ranch
"Get that? Mr. Bartley was bragging that he and the Journal — that supposed bastion of conservatism — were pushing for open borders 20 years ago! Not to put too fine a point on the matter, but that is another way of saying that Bartley and company were (are) pushing for the abolition of the United States of America. Which is to say — and there’s no way around it — that Bartley and his WSJ coterie were (and are) engaged in subversion and treason, no matter how respectable they may appear or how cleverly they couch their verbal assaults on nationhood."

Get that? People best start waking up to what both parties have become, and more than that, they best start making some noise if they want to keep their nation. Bush will have nothing to lose in his second term as he has strong armed his way to the Fast Track ability and has said he is determined to push the FTAA treaty through congress and the senate. Who is going to put the brakes on this during Bush's second term?

29 posted on 02/28/2004 8:53:14 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: EGPWS
Not at all. I've just run into too many who want to elevate societal mores to the status of political dogma.
30 posted on 02/28/2004 8:56:49 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: MissAmericanPie
Who is going to put the brakes on this during Bush's second term?

Who is it that is going to put the breaks on it without a second Bush term?

31 posted on 02/28/2004 8:58:11 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: B4Ranch
It is alive and well here.
32 posted on 02/28/2004 8:59:05 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: B4Ranch
That is not the way I remember it happening. I remember it being pushed through during a holiday when most lawmakers were leaving D.C. for the Thanksgiving holiday.

I remember a reporter asking a Senator if he understood what GATT would do to the second amendment and the Senator said no he had not read it in it's entirity, the reporter asked him since now he had been made aware would he vote for it now and the Senator said no, but of course he was lying. He looked like a deer caught in the headlights.

At the time I didn't understand what was going on, I wasn't as political then as now.
33 posted on 02/28/2004 8:59:08 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: B4Ranch
Why do you think they choose the US in which to place their headquarters?

$$$ and $$$.

34 posted on 02/28/2004 9:02:11 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: B4Ranch
Once annexing Mexico, which also doesn't share a language commonality with us, we would need a battery of attorneys and an army of translators with the United Nations demanding approval issuance on every agreement before and after conferencing could begin.

You are right of course, the language problem would be significant. My solution was somewhat "tongue in cheek" but would eventually allow the US to alter the part of Mexico that we don't support, I. E. corruption and poverty in the midst of a rich country. There are however many untaped resources in Mexico and better cooperation with the US could leadn them out of third world status.

As for gathering up some of the poor in the USA, I am not in the business of supporting them with my financial resources. I would favor more street cleaning jobs but if Mexico were ours, perhaps they could assist with the teaching of english? As to the United Nations, I would bypass them by getting the Mexicans themselves to vote as a soverign nation state to annex. Much as was done with Texas.

35 posted on 02/28/2004 9:05:46 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: MissAmericanPie
We've made the 2A subservient to the Commerce Clause, and placed commerce regulation within the pervue of the UN. The results are predictable.
36 posted on 02/28/2004 9:06:53 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: jpsb
We went to a Republican convention in Burlingame Ca, (similar to the one just held, only back when Forbes was running for president.)

We asked his staff what his position on illegal immigration and were told if that was an issue with us, we should go find Pat Buchanan supporters and join them.

At this time people were listening to Kemp who felt that a serious anti immigration position would drive the hispanics who "were a natural ally of republicans" into the democrat camp. Of course that is still where they are.

If Forbes has changed his positon currently, I am unaware.
37 posted on 02/28/2004 9:09:53 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: mrsmith
Militarize our border and then use an inevitable conflict with the Mexican army as reason to invade and conquer.

I think Mexico would vote themselves into the republic if valid elections were to be proposed. The leadership of Mexico would be offended and opposed, but I was not planning on a military take over, this unfortunately would enhance the "ugly American" syndrome around the globe.

38 posted on 02/28/2004 9:13:11 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: B4Ranch
Hey, lookie there, you've got dictators Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Robert Mugabee on your side:

Amid protests, Venezuela's president warns Third World leaders against free market policies

EU hoping for developing world summit to agree on free trade talks - Castro and Mugabe take a pass

39 posted on 02/28/2004 9:15:54 AM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: jpsb
So it should be easy to provide a source. Forbes was NOT an open border amnasty for illegals. And neither was he in favor of WTO and these other world government organizations. Also Forbes got very little support here at FR.

As I said, Forbes had a very good tax idea in the flat tax. He also proposed not taxing pensions, interest income, and dividend income. He was rejected before he could move by the very people who would benefit most, the AARP. As to his border positions, what he did IMO was dodge the issue and take a Kemp position that we should not antagonize this segment of our population because they were hard working and rapidly growing. No I did not hear a proposal about border control it was more like "keep the status quo" which I interpreted as meaning we would have more of the same. I believe Forbes and Bush would be more in agreement about the flood of immigrants than in disagreement. I was in California at the time and a supporter of proposition 187, I believe Forbes was opposed to that proposition, but cannot cite a source.

40 posted on 02/28/2004 9:21:00 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: KC_for_Freedom
It's just intriguing as a traditional way of handling an uncooperative dependent nation.

Annexation would require some force IMO, but that's beside the point.

41 posted on 02/28/2004 9:21:18 AM PST by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: Diddle E. Squat
Dictators do not want to open their countries up to internationalists. Nor do they wish to support other countries unless there is immediate benefit for them which in most cases the United Nations is already providing with any criticism.
42 posted on 02/28/2004 9:28:38 AM PST by B4Ranch (Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.--Eleanor Roosevelt)
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To: Diddle E. Squat
Hey, lookie there, you've got dictators Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, and Robert Mugabee on your side:

"Guilt by association" - textbook propaganda ploy based on logical fallacy.

43 posted on 02/28/2004 9:30:10 AM PST by tacticalogic (Controlled application of force is the sincerest form of communication.)
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To: KC_for_Freedom
I don't remember him even addressing the issue of illegal immigration. His campaign was based on reforming the federal government. Taxes, trade and SS. All of which are badly in need of reform. And none of which are being reformed by the current administration. Forbes would have been a great conservative president, and we badly need a conservative president. I still have not forgiven the bustbots or the Keys supporters for their unfounded attacks on Steve Forbes. Well they wanted Bush and they got Bush and we went from almost 300b in surplus to 500b budget deficit. 500b dollar trade deficits, new entitlements and jobless recoveries. Thats a lot bushbots.
44 posted on 02/28/2004 9:35:17 AM PST by jpsb (Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
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To: William McKinley



The nation-state is obsolete, eh? Good to see the author has channelled Strobe Talbot.

You didn't read the article, did you?


45 posted on 02/28/2004 9:35:17 AM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: KC_for_Freedom; jpsb
Steve Forbes: "We are a nation of immigrants, but our government is doing a terrible job on the immigration issue. As President, I will provide real conservative leadership on this critical issue. I do not support increasing legal immigration, except in the area of H-1B visas for high-tech workers to work side-by-side with American scientists and engineers. The real issue, however, is that the federal government is not protecting our borders and should compensate states as a result. The INS is rife with dismal mismanagement and badly needs drastic reform. We should more rapidly deport illegal immigrants. The Border Patrol needs to be beefed up and provided more manpower and state-of-the-art, high-tech equipment."

AP questions to candidates

... pretty close to W's answer.

46 posted on 02/28/2004 9:46:56 AM PST by glock rocks (sometimes I want to just kick back, put on some tunes, and smoke a troll.)
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To: Liz; TaxRelief; Huber
Internationalist alert, ping !
47 posted on 02/28/2004 9:48:00 AM PST by Helms
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To: jpsb
Well, no doubt he would have been a great president, along the lines of Bush, (I believe, but with even beter financial credentials.)

As to his immigrant approach, I don't know how you can ascertaing them at this point, since he is not running for anything but I stand by my experience at the convention. Perhaps if can be verified that he was consulting Jack Kemp on this issue, we know Jack's position well. Was Kemp associated with the Forbes campaign? I think he was.
48 posted on 02/28/2004 9:48:35 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: mrsmith; KC_for_Freedom


It's just intriguing as a traditional way of handling an uncooperative dependent nation.

Annexation would require some force IMO, but that's beside the point.
-41-

______________________________________


'Annexation' may be the wrong word, as many of its connotations imply a taking..

Why do you think a invitation for Mexican states to join the United States would require force?


49 posted on 02/28/2004 9:51:14 AM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but the U.S. Constitution defines conservatism; - not the GOP. .)
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To: B4Ranch
Thank you for posting this thought provoking essay. My only complaint is that the writer treats the proponents of this form of the compulsive pursuit of an undifferentiated humanity, as "intellectuals." They suffer from a slightly different form of tunnel vision than the compulsive egalitarians--these folk mostly motivated by a desire for Corporate opportunities and profit, rather than the fear and compulsion driven pursuit on the Left--but their analytic powers are almost as defective.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense, can quickly perceive all sorts of long term problems, that will inevitably arise, to turn this new pursuit of a tower of babel concept into another total disaster. What they have already damaged, and damaged terribly, is the sense of a generation to generation continuum in many human societies. They are so lost in the perceptions of immediate advantage, they totally ignore the necessity for community--I mean real communities of real people, not the abstractions involved in conceptutalizing a "community of nations," etc..

For an obvious example of what I mean, the antidote to class warfare, which has always been the goal of demagogues who see it as a path to power, has always been in a sense of community, of common heritage, etc.. The small town industrialist, might have had problems with his work force, but nothing like the problems that the absentee mine owner had in the Kentucky or West Virginia coal mines. But when the neat little model of the Globalist Conglomerates starts to come apart, the chaos will be unlike anything seen, not even after the November Revolution in Russia, in 1917.

To say these pathetic theorists have a tiger by the tail, is the understatment of human history.

This is indeed the life or death issue of our century. We can humor the politically correct crowd and pretend that every body is really the same; that it is prejudice to prefer our own peoples over others; that we need a new racial and ethnic sensitivity to prepare for a brighter future, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Or we can wake up.

The Left screaming "xenophobia," "racism," "bigotry," has conditioned many Americans to try to avoid this issue. It is that reluctance which these non-ideological representatives of managerial avarice, on a Leftward tangent, are exploiting to destroy our societies. We need to wake up! The intellectually blind, combined with the old enemies, combined with the stupid, resentful and neurotic in our midst are going to destroy the America we inherited, if we don't.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site
The Resource Center For Those Who Intend To Fight Back!

50 posted on 02/28/2004 10:06:54 AM PST by Ohioan
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