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Archaeologists Uncover Ayrshire Village Ancient History (Scotland - 3500BC)
Scotland Today ^ | 2-27-2004

Posted on 02/28/2004 12:51:32 PM PST by blam

Archaeologists uncover Ayrshire village ancient history

A village in Ayrshire has discovered that it could be the oldest continuously-occupied settlement in Scotland, dating back 5,500. Archaeologists have uncovered the remains of stone age houses in the middle of Dreghorn near Irvine.

They are having to re-write their local history in Dreghorn. Archaeologists have discovered that people may have been living here since 3500 BC - and it might make the village unique. They found evidence of occupation dating back to the Stone Age, through the Bronze Age to the medieval period.

Archaeologist Tom Addyman said: "People have always lived here, and have wanted to live here. Can't think of any other site that has that depth and layering of occupation."

The settlement has been found on the site of a modern housing development. Building work has been halted to allow the archaeologists to dig. They have made several intriguing finds.

Project supervisor Tom Wilson said: "It appears to be quite a large monument, like a standing stone, or some kind of totem pole, if you will, set up towards the centre of the settlement. That is an unusual thing to find in a settlement like this."

Pre-historian Mike Donnelly said: "Well, what we found here looks like a prehistoric pottery kiln, which would be very unusual for mainland Scotland, it would certainly be the first for mainland Scotland."

The archaeologists are noting down everything before the builders move back in. Dreghorn already had one claim to fame, as the birthplace of John Boyd Dunlop, the inventor of the pneumatic tyre; now it has a second, as - possibly - Scotland's oldest village.

27/02/2004 17:54


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancient; archaeologists; ayrshire; blacksea; blackseaflood; dreghorn; godsgravesglyphs; grandcanyon; greatflood; history; noah; noahsflood; scotland; scotlandyet; uncover

1 posted on 02/28/2004 12:51:33 PM PST by blam
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To: farmfriend
Ping.
2 posted on 02/28/2004 12:52:44 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
it might make the village unique

But it almost certainly doesn't.

I understand why they have to stop and re-evaluate everything whenever they make a significant discovery, but I wish they wouldn't be so quick to equate "the oldest thing we've found so far" with "the oldest thing that ever was." The one thing we know for sure is that we don't know much.

3 posted on 02/28/2004 1:00:31 PM PST by prion
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To: blam; Miss Marple
Scotland ping
4 posted on 02/28/2004 1:06:50 PM PST by Molly Pitcher
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To: blam
It would be real interesting to find the locals who can trace their geneology in that area back the farthest.
5 posted on 02/28/2004 2:07:33 PM PST by umgud (speaking strictly as an infidel,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
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To: umgud
I would not want to stop at the locals there.... world wide search....
6 posted on 02/28/2004 2:10:49 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: umgud
"It would be real interesting to find the locals who can trace their geneology in that area back the farthest."

Well, we have 9,000 year old Cheddar Man just a short distance away that still has relatives living near by.

Isn't that amazing.

7 posted on 02/28/2004 4:47:44 PM PST by blam
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To: Just mythoughts
See my post #7.
8 posted on 02/28/2004 4:48:34 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Thanks, interesting indeed.

So how is it then "if" Noah's flood covered the entire earth could it be that this teacher migrated back home?

This to me seems to give evidence that Noah's flood was not the entire earth, rather the known earth to the people where Noah was.
9 posted on 02/28/2004 5:44:22 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
"This to me seems to give evidence that Noah's flood was not the entire earth, rather the known earth to the people where Noah was."

That's my opinion and, probably the Black Sea flood in 5600BC.

10 posted on 02/28/2004 5:55:48 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Neat thing about living in the U.K is that you always have the feeling of being a shovel of dirt away from antiquities. I'm not the spooky sort but when I was based there in the 90's we lived in a small village that was full of history. Seemed to me that you could really feel it on foggy nights, especially after a couple pints of the pubs best ale. Loved living there.
11 posted on 02/28/2004 5:56:04 PM PST by strongbow
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To: blam
btt
12 posted on 02/28/2004 5:57:42 PM PST by Ciexyz
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To: blam
Archaeologist Tom Addyman said: "People have always lived here, and have wanted to live here. Can't think of any other site that has that depth and layering of occupation."

Maybe Jericho, but I think Jericho was abandoned for some periods.

13 posted on 02/28/2004 5:58:08 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: strongbow
Neat yes. I read a story about a structure there that had been continuously lived in for 1200 years.
14 posted on 02/28/2004 6:13:33 PM PST by blam
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To: prion
The one thing we know for sure is that we don't know much.

Oh heavens don't tell them that! They might faint.

True though very true.

15 posted on 02/28/2004 6:26:36 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Pick my weapon? Ok I choose sledge hammers.... in seven feet of water.)
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To: blam; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; A.J.Armitage; abner; adam_az; AdmSmith; Alas Babylon!; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.
16 posted on 02/28/2004 10:21:51 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: Ciexyz
....a small village that was full of history. Seemed to me that you could really feel it on foggy nights....

I know what you mean. I lived for 1.5 years in a rural area of East Anglia in the early 90's.

The Fens always seemed haunted by ancient history when I had to drive home at 2 A.M. through a heavy fog.

Once, I was putting along at 15 mph, barely able to see the highway center line, when some fool blew past me at 40 mph or above. What idiot would drive that fast, when he could not possibly see the road at all? A ghost car, or a drunk?

17 posted on 02/29/2004 5:37:27 AM PST by jimtorr
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To: prion
I understand why they have to stop and re-evaluate everything whenever they make a significant discovery, but I wish they wouldn't be so quick to equate "the oldest thing we've found so far" with "the oldest thing that ever was." The one thing we know for sure is that we don't know much.

Amen to that.

18 posted on 02/29/2004 12:19:46 PM PST by Fedora
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To: blam; Just mythoughts
"This to me seems to give evidence that Noah's flood was not the entire earth, rather the known earth to the people where Noah was."

That's my opinion and, probably the Black Sea flood in 5600BC.

I'm still trying to make up my mind on that issue. On the one hand, I can see that it would be easier to reconcile the present archaeological data with Scripture if the Flood is interpreted as local. On the other hand, Scripture describes the Flood as covering the highest mountains and wiping out all land life, which sounds like the Flood was coincident with the extent of human population at that time (or at least had repercussions that affected all human-occupied areas); and archaeological knowledge is in a constant state of flux, as I know, blam, you are well aware :) So I'm still trying to make up my mind on how to best reconcile the Scriptural and archaeological data on that one. Another hypothesis I've been toying with is that the Flood was global but earlier, at the end of the Ice Age, so that such phenomena as the draining of Lake Agassiz, the extinction of megafauna, and the end of Paleolithic culture might be related to the Flood; and conceivably the Black Sea may have gone through some changes at the same time Lake Agassiz did, prior to the 5600 BC changes mentioned above. Blam, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts you have on that idea or this subject in general.

19 posted on 02/29/2004 12:45:06 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora; blam
I'm looking up some stuff on the topic of my last post now; here's something with some interesting discussion:

“Noah's Flood” and the Late Quaternary Geological and Archaeological History of the Black Sea and Adjacent Basins

One of the papers proposes something which sounds along the lines I was suggesting:

---

A comparative analysis of the Late Glacial history of the inner basins of Eurasia enables us to suggest an alternative to the Early Holocene Flood that Ryan et al. (1997) thought could be the basis for the legend of Noah’s Flood. At the Late Glacial time (16-13 ka BP; 14C on mollusk’s shells) a Great Eurasian Basin System (~1.5 million km2, ~650,000-700,000 km3) developed due to a climate warming, the melting of the Scandinavia Ice Sheet and massive river discharge. This is supported by freshwater and alluvial sediments (e.g., chocolate clays, loams and sands with a thickness of ca 20-30 m) with endemic Caspian mollusks Didacna, Monodacna, Adacna, and Hypanis widely distributed from the Caspian Sea to the Dardanelles including waterways between the basins. At the beginning (16-15 ka BP), the flood was especially rapid, increasing the Caspian Sea level by 100-150 m, reaching +50 m and pushing the Volga River mouth upstream in ca 1,500 km. The discharge of the large (Volga, Don, Dnieper) and small rivers increased by 2-4 and 20-35 times respectively, causing megafloods. The high speed of the flood can be seen from incising river paleomeanders not filled with sediment. A large amount of water could not be kept in the Caspian depression and was discharged into the Neweuxinian basin (ancient Black Sea) through the Manych-Kerch Strait at a speed 50,000 m3 sec-1, and from there across the Bosporus to the Sea of Marmara. As a result, the level of the Black Sea increased by 60-70 m and reached a level of approximately -20 m at the end of the Pleistocene. Archeological evidence from the late Paleolithic sites (e.g., Kamennaya Balka, Avdeevo, Byki, and Kapova Cave) suggests that large-scale flooding of the coastal zone by water from the late Pleistocene basins together with river megafloods caused a reduction of available living space and hunting areas, resulting in a mass migration and subsequent increase in population density. The decrease in available food resources per capita affected everyday life of the Palaeolithic people and was likely to have stimulated the transition from hunting and gathering to farming and cattle breeding in the region. Thus, it is possible that this flood affected the Late Paleolithic people so deeply as to form the legend of the Great Flood.

-- LATE GLACIAL GREAT FLOOD IN THE BLACK SEA AND CASPIAN SEA

20 posted on 02/29/2004 1:09:47 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora
Very interesting post Fedora. If it was a glacial melt-off that was the trigger, this would also explain why the flood appears to be such a global phenom. From what I understand, just about every culture worldwide relates a flood story from its deepest history. It would be interesting to me if the flood had, in fact occurred much further back than is commonly supposed.
21 posted on 02/29/2004 1:49:48 PM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: Fedora
"Blam, I'd be interested to hear any thoughts you have on that idea or this subject in general."

All the flood stories are related to the end of the Ice Age. Take a long look at this map with the worlds oceans reduced by a little over 300 ft. The Ice Age caused a reduction in depth of the world's ocean by 300-500ft and most scholars will accept 400ft.

Notice on the map that there are a number of major waterways that are blocked during the Ice Age...There were probably a number of examples like the Black Sea Flood. Look at the Mediterreanean (it's in two, maybe three parts) the Red Sea is landlocked and the Persian Gulf is completely dry. I think the Gulf Of Mexico also was blocked. These landlocked-blocked bodies of water would have completely dried out or eventually stabilized at a much lower level that the worlds oceans. When the water from the melting ice reached a given level, each one of the areas would have experienced a break-through and a 'Noah's Flood' that would have stayed in the collective minds of humans through the ages.

I'm toying with the idea that the Red Sea was dry or almost dry and all the fireworks/earthquakes/tsunamis, etc. associated with the 1628BC eruption of Thera/Santorini broke through the 'dam' and swept away the Egyptians who wer pursuing the Jews on their Exodus. Charred grain has been found above the Santorini ash layer but below the collapsed walls of Jerico.

There would have been millions of refugees from the Mediterranean each time the water rose high enough to break through each 'dam.'...and there is no obvious source of the water.

More at another time, lol.

22 posted on 02/29/2004 2:44:36 PM PST by blam
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To: zeugma
Very interesting post Fedora. If it was a glacial melt-off that was the trigger, this would also explain why the flood appears to be such a global phenom. From what I understand, just about every culture worldwide relates a flood story from its deepest history. It would be interesting to me if the flood had, in fact occurred much further back than is commonly supposed.

That's one possibility I'm also very interested in. On the global distribution of flood stories, here's a site which has a useful survey and summary of many Flood traditions:

Flood Stories from Around the World

Some stories seem to be closer to the Biblical story than others, and some come from cultures which had known contact with Middle Eastern tradition. The ones I find most interesting are the ones that are similar to the Biblical story but come from cultures with no known contact with Middle Eastern tradition.

23 posted on 02/29/2004 2:45:34 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora; zeugma
This analysis does not consider that the land masses under the ice sheets would have been severly depressed/compressed and at the same time, land to the south would have been 'sticking-up', something like a see-saw. Most of the melt water went 'the-other-way.' (somewhere through the Scandanavian countries?) And, that's why the Black Sea water level was still depressed by 550ft in 5600BC. All that fresh water didn't go through there?
24 posted on 02/29/2004 2:55:31 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
All the flood stories are related to the end of the Ice Age. Take a long look at this map with the worlds oceans reduced by a little over 300 ft. The Ice Age caused a reduction in depth of the world's ocean by 300-500ft and most scholars will accept 400ft.

Cool map! :) I see what you're saying about the Mediterranean. I'm also noticing interesting things around the Bering Strait, Hudson Bay (or the lack thereof!), the Caribbean, the British "Isles", Japan, and Indonesia. As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating." :)

More at another time, lol.

Sounds good :)

25 posted on 02/29/2004 3:02:50 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora
I think I found that site once when I was looking for information about Gilgamesh. Pretty cool. I too am much more interested in the flood stories from peoples without known contact with middle-eastern culture and tradtions. They give credibility to the flood that nothing else does.
26 posted on 02/29/2004 3:18:01 PM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: blam
This analysis does not consider that the land masses under the ice sheets would have been severly depressed/compressed and at the same time, land to the south would have been 'sticking-up', something like a see-saw.

True--at least in the absence of any other offsetting factors. Any other geologic events that may have also affected this, like for instance any major tectonic activity at the end of the Ice Age?

Most of the melt water went 'the-other-way.' (somewhere through the Scandanavian countries?) And, that's why the Black Sea water level was still depressed by 550ft in 5600BC. All that fresh water didn't go through there?

Interesting--I will have to think about that. What would the effect of glacial runoff have been on the rivers running into the Black Sea from its non-Mediterranean shores--Danube, Dnesst, Dnepr, Don? I'm thinking on analogy with what happened with the Mississippi River, Lake Agassiz, and Hudson Bay in North America and trying to visualize how that would apply to the Black Sea.

27 posted on 02/29/2004 3:26:30 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora
"I'm also noticing interesting things around the Bering Strait, Hudson Bay (or the lack thereof!), the Caribbean, the British "Isles", Japan, and Indonesia.

Dr Robert Schoch (geologist/geophysist), speculates in his recent book Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, that the inhabitants of Sundaland took to the seas as their land went underwater at the end of the Ice Age and took their custom of pyramid building with them all over the world. Interesting book.

BTW, Schoch says the underwater 'pyramids' found off the coast of Japan are natural formations. I saw a 'special' where he was swimming around these structures in scuba equipment.

28 posted on 02/29/2004 3:39:43 PM PST by blam
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To: Fedora
"What would the effect of glacial runoff have been on the rivers running into the Black Sea from its non-Mediterranean shores--Danube, Dnesst, Dnepr, Don?"

I actually read a scientific refutation of your article in post #20. My memory on it is faint but I do remember that they said the water did not stream into the Black Sea...But, I can't remember where they said it went. (ugh)

29 posted on 02/29/2004 3:43:50 PM PST by blam
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To: zeugma
I think I found that site once when I was looking for information about Gilgamesh.

You may have seen this thread already, but if not you may be interested:

IRAQ: Gilgamesh tomb believed found

30 posted on 02/29/2004 3:56:21 PM PST by Fedora
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To: blam
Dr Robert Schoch (geologist/geophysist), speculates in his recent book Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, that the inhabitants of Sundaland took to the seas as their land went underwater at the end of the Ice Age and took their custom of pyramid building with them all over the world. Interesting book.

Thanks, I'll check that out! I've been exploring the possibility of contact between pyramid/ziggurat builders in Sumeria, Egypt, and India; didn't know about Indonesia. BTW speaking of that I recently started a book (another one!--LOL!) about a Pacific island with megaliths called Nan Madol, which might relate to Schoch's thesis.

BTW, Schoch says the underwater 'pyramids' found off the coast of Japan are natural formations. I saw a 'special' where he was swimming around these structures in scuba equipment.

I recently read somewhere that they seemed to be natural, too. Have you heard any recent progress in the research into the ones off Cuba?

31 posted on 02/29/2004 4:09:24 PM PST by Fedora
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To: blam
I actually read a scientific refutation of your article in post #20. My memory on it is faint but I do remember that they said the water did not stream into the Black Sea...But, I can't remember where they said it went. (ugh)

LOL! That's what happened to me the other day when I was trying to remember the title of one of the books I was trying to tell you about. :) I'll keep an eye out for refutations of the article.

32 posted on 02/29/2004 4:12:43 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora
"Have you heard any recent progress in the research into the ones off Cuba?"

No. Schoch said that from all that he has seen on this (presumably he's seen as much as us and probably more), they are natural structures too.

33 posted on 02/29/2004 4:20:28 PM PST by blam
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To: Fedora

Nan Madol

(A quick check of Schoch's book didn't turn up any mention of Nan Madol)

34 posted on 02/29/2004 4:28:07 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Nan Madol

Thanks, nice picture, and I see the site that links to has some other good pics as well.

Getting ready to watch the Oscars here, so I'll check back later. Have a good one!

35 posted on 02/29/2004 4:54:04 PM PST by Fedora
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To: Fedora
"Getting ready to watch the Oscars here."

That's a waste of time. I'm watching War Stories with Oliver North. Later.

36 posted on 02/29/2004 5:05:18 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
"Getting ready to watch the Oscars here."

That's a waste of time.

Usually is :) I usually skip it, but I'm a Tolkien fan so this year I want to see how LotR does. Show's starting now--later!

37 posted on 02/29/2004 5:32:33 PM PST by Fedora
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To: blam
There are some villages in the Dordogne region of France that have floors of stones and pebbles laid down in the Paleolithic.
38 posted on 02/29/2004 5:39:23 PM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
"There are some villages in the Dordogne region of France that have floors of stones and pebbles laid down in the Paleolithic."

That's amazing. I was moaning the other day that my house is now 12 years old.

39 posted on 02/29/2004 9:01:31 PM PST by blam
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Not a ping, just a GGG update.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

40 posted on 03/25/2005 7:51:45 PM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Friday, March 25, 2005.)
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


41 posted on 09/08/2012 7:28:28 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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