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Free trade loses lustre
The Sunday Times ^ | February 29, 2004

Posted on 02/29/2004 1:13:49 AM PST by sarcasm

WASHINGTON: Free trade is losing support in the US, in particular among high-income Americans, as more professionals feel threatened by job outsourcing to low-wage nations.

A recent poll by a Washington research group found falling support for free trade but the shift was most dramatic among those earning more than $US100,000 ($A130,000) a year.

The University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes found the percentage of those earning more than $US100,000 who actively supported free trade slid from 57 per cent in 1999 to 28 per cent in January 2004.

These results surprised even the researchers.

"It is rare in any case that any demographic slice drops 20 or 30 points on any issue," said research director Clay Ramsay.

"It certainly provides evidence for the theory that job insecurity is creeping up the income scale."

The poll showed more white-collar Americans joining the blue-collar outcry against globalisation and cast a cloud on the ability of the US to remain a leader in free trade. It also suggested protectionist talk would rise during the presidential election campaign.

But researchers said the results showed a majority of Americans endorsed free trade in principle, even if they believed it was being handled poorly by Washington.

"Feelings about international trade have gone from lukewarm, to luker," said PIPA director Steven Kull.

"Two-thirds say they support the reciprocal lowering of trade barriers but feel more needs to be done to mitigate the effects on workers and the environment." But the trend towards outsourcing of software and engineering jobs to countries such as India had led to a rethink of the benefits.

Senator Charles Schumer wrote recently in the New York Times that free trade had to be reconsidered in light of new economic realities, notably that much of the outsourcing was going to "a relatively few countries with abundant cheap labour".

"When American companies replace domestic employees with lower-cost foreign workers to sell more cheaply in home markets, it seems hard to argue this is the way free trade is supposed to work," Senator Schumer wrote.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: freetrade; outsourcing; trade
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1 posted on 02/29/2004 1:13:49 AM PST by sarcasm
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To: A. Pole; harpseal
ping
2 posted on 02/29/2004 1:14:14 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
...free trade in principle

Which is what? Free trade is not unfettered trade...but exactly what is "free trade" in principle? I'll bet it's tough to find a clear definition of this term--any takers?

3 posted on 02/29/2004 1:41:06 AM PST by Rudder
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To: sarcasm
Senator Charles Schumer wrote recently in the New York Times that free trade had to be reconsidered

It's funny. Free trade and outsourcing threads can go on for a couple hundred replies. It seems like the excerpt above should delineate the issue quite nicely.

4 posted on 02/29/2004 4:12:23 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
The co-author was Paul Craig Roberts - hardly a liberal.
5 posted on 02/29/2004 4:17:23 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
I know, and the issue of outsourcing is hardly a black/white one. I'm just amused when fellow freepers end up on the same side as Chuckie.
6 posted on 02/29/2004 4:30:38 AM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: sarcasm
Then perhaps a discussion of how "hardly a liberal" finds so much in common with a real one. Happens more often than you think.
7 posted on 02/29/2004 4:34:44 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Rudder
I wonder if the fact that the U.S. and Australia just signed a free-trade agreement has anything to do with the fact that this Aussie newspaper went fishing for a poll.
8 posted on 02/29/2004 4:37:35 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
Just like so-called conservatives find themselves in agreement with the New York Times editorial board.
9 posted on 02/29/2004 4:42:58 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Mr. Bird
Did you read the article?
10 posted on 02/29/2004 4:45:31 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
Not the same and you know it . . . would you care for me to post something from the Communist Party?
11 posted on 02/29/2004 4:46:55 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
It's exactly the same - you agree with the socialists at the New York Times with regards to so-called free trade.
12 posted on 02/29/2004 4:53:31 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
""When American companies replace domestic employees with lower-cost foreign workers to sell more cheaply in home markets, it seems hard to argue this is the way free trade is supposed to work," Senator Schumer wrote."

Oh my God, I agree with the dirtball. That's not good. This means this issue is far more important than imagined.
13 posted on 02/29/2004 5:03:42 AM PST by Beck_isright ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - (Fill in name of Democrat here))
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To: All
Chucky and the dims are brilliant. What we really NEED to do is to revert back to the FAILED "ISOLATIONIST" ways that drove us into depression, and emboldened our enemies to dare think us weak enough to challenge. Is not the "War on Terror" enough for these socio-communist sympathizers? Do we really need to end up fighting another "World War"?

Our economy would become the focal point for attacks from many of our international trading partners. Just look at what was threatened against us over the recent steel tariffs.

Just how many knives in the back can Ole Uncle Sam survive? The EU would love an out-and-out trade war. They are using any excuse today to threaten our exports. They have already stopped beef and poultry imports from the US.

President Bush pushes for free but fair trade. It is hard to define, but easily recognized when one sees it...

LLS

14 posted on 02/29/2004 5:04:41 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (We point out Kerry's record and the facts, and they just THINK it's attack politics.)
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To: Beck_isright
I doubt that Schumer had much input.
15 posted on 02/29/2004 5:08:19 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
Two can play your game of sophism. By your standard, I can argue that you agree with the chair of the Labor Commission at the Communist Party of the U.S.A. with regards to so-called free trade. Let's see now, where does that get us? I'm Left-leaning, and you are a Leftist. [chortle]
16 posted on 02/29/2004 6:30:02 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
I guess that you also believe that the chair of the labor commission is speaking the truth about his position. You probably also believe that the guarantees of freedom of speech and religion in the Soviet constitution were for real.
17 posted on 02/29/2004 6:33:38 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Rudder
Which is what? Free trade is not unfettered trade...but exactly what is "free trade" in principle? I'll bet it's tough to find a clear definition of this term--any takers?

Free trade means the removal of the national borders in economy (primarily removal of tariffs) and transferring the economical sovereignity from the nation state to the private international owners while the workers become the freely traded commodity without having any claims based on shared nationality or citizenship.

Remaining national institution like military and police are to be paid by the workers while defending the private wealth. The redistribution of income is to be reduced or eliminated.

18 posted on 02/29/2004 6:46:07 AM PST by A. Pole (The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.)
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
[Rudder:] Which is what? Free trade is not unfettered trade...but exactly what is "free trade" in principle? I'll bet it's tough to find a clear definition of this term--any takers?

Free trade means the removal of the national borders in economy (primarily removal of tariffs) and transferring the economical sovereignity from the nation state to the private international owners while the workers become the freely traded commodity without having any claims based on shared nationality or citizenship.

Remaining national institution like military and police are to be paid by the workers while defending the private wealth. The downward redistribution of income is to be reduced or eliminated.

19 posted on 02/29/2004 6:47:53 AM PST by A. Pole (The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.)
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To: sarcasm
...a majority of Americans endorsed free trade in principle, even if they believed it was being handled poorly by Washington.

Um...I thought the whole point of "free trade" was to keep the government out of it. So, how can Washington be handling it poorly if it isn't supposed to be handling it at all?

20 posted on 02/29/2004 6:52:45 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.)
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To: LibLieSlayer
Yes, trade wars are what caused the depression, but what is at hand is outsourcing of jobs, good paying jobs at that, that are not being replaced at the rate at which we are losing them. I do not agree with restrictions on trade, but we can't expect the economic situation to get any better when this is happening. The irony in the whole situation is that we are educating those who are at the receiving end of these jobs.

I don't know what needs to be done, but I know that what is happening right now is only good for the country that is on the receiving end.
21 posted on 02/29/2004 6:52:55 AM PST by lt.america (Captain was already taken)
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To: LibLieSlayer; sarcasm; 1rudeboy
Let's try working on a definition of free trade, I'll throw the first barb in.

In America, private (meaning non-governmental) companies are free to run their corporations as they see fit (within the confines of current laws) when it comes as who they hire, without regard as to where they live, as long as both parties enter into the arrangement freely.

Likewise, the American consumer is free to patronize any business they so wish to patronize, or purchase whatever commercial product best suits them, without interference from the force of government.

Is this a start?
22 posted on 02/29/2004 6:53:46 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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To: lt.america
"The irony in the whole situation is that we are educating those who are at the receiving end of these jobs."

And raising their income level, thus creating a market for our goods.

23 posted on 02/29/2004 6:55:18 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Unless the world is made safe for Democracy, Democracy won't be safe in the world.)
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To: sarcasm
A recent poll by a Washington research group...

And the name of this group is?

24 posted on 02/29/2004 6:56:38 AM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: sarcasm
"When American companies replace domestic employees with lower-cost foreign workers to sell more cheaply in home markets, it seems hard to argue this is the way free trade is supposed to work,""



Except we dont have a free trade agreement with India and yet the jobs are still going.
25 posted on 02/29/2004 7:05:20 AM PST by raloxk
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To: Mr. Bird
Make no mistake, nobody here is on "the same side as Chuckie".

That quote may make a good sound bite, but you have to remember what Chuckie really means. The only reason he now has a problem with free trade is because it's now annoying his constituents. And what do you think his solution would be?

If you said "more government interference", you would be absolutely correct.

26 posted on 02/29/2004 7:10:05 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
And raising their income level, thus creating a market for our goods.

Correction. A market for their own ...i.e., Indian and Chinese goods... who, since their income is held down to .27 cents an hour, can only afford their own goods...and just laugh their rears off at U.S. priced goods.

27 posted on 02/29/2004 7:13:39 AM PST by Paul Ross ("A country that cannot control its borders isn't really a country any more."-President Ronald Reagan)
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To: raloxk
Except we dont have a free trade agreement with India and yet the jobs are still going.

They are members of the WTO, even though they have tariffs and import barriers up the ying yang, and have brought no fewer than 17 World Trade complaints against the U.S. Including those against U.S. government contracts requiring domestic content....! They have won many of these trade complaints thanks to the anti-U.S. composition of the World Trade Organization Court.

28 posted on 02/29/2004 7:17:15 AM PST by Paul Ross ("A country that cannot control its borders isn't really a country any more."-President Ronald Reagan)
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To: 1rudeboy
So liberals and conservatives cannot agree that a nuclear strike on America is a bad thing? Because that is basically what Free Trade, in it's present form, is. Only without the burned out buildings.
29 posted on 02/29/2004 7:18:18 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Luis Gonzalez
In some cases, maybe. In most cases, I think not.

When labor cost is the only leverage you have in the market, you can't very well allow wages to increase. Indian outsourcers for skilled labor do not offer "service" or "outcome-based" billing. They offer per-hour labor only, because this is their only market advantage.

In the case of China, labor has been completely commoditized - wages will always be low because the goverment decreess that they will be low. Troublesome areas that may crop up will be squashed and replaced to perpetuate commodity-based human resources.

Meanwhile, we here in America do just the opposite. Onerous goverment regulation, a tax structure that punishes success, minimum wage...these things price Americans out of the market to the point that corporations are willing to take their chances that the money saved will offset the lack of flexibility and accountability that offshoring has.
30 posted on 02/29/2004 7:34:44 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.)
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To: sarcasm
The University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes found the percentage of those earning more than $US100,000 who actively supported free trade slid from 57 per cent in 1999 to 28 per cent in January 2004.

Sure, well off Americans were all for destroying blue collar workers and their families so they could buy cheap communist slave labor products at the local Great Wall-Mart.

Now that their cushy jobs are being outsourced to India "free trade" is suddenly not such a good thing!

LOL!

How do you like it SUCKERS?!

You, your skills, your education, work record, experience, are all USELESS in the "free trade" paradise we now live survive in.

The ONLY criteria that matters now is, can you do the same work at a third of the wages or less??

The free traitors have not only destroyed over 2 million middle class American jobs, they may also destroy the Republican party along with them!

31 posted on 02/29/2004 7:34:58 AM PST by Walkin Man
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To: Walkin Man
Sure, well off Americans were all for destroying blue collar workers and their families so they could buy cheap communist slave labor products at the local Great Wall-Mart.

Surely you jest. The pickups in the parking lot at Wal Mart are all tagged with "International Brotherhood of this or that" on their bumpers.

Now I don't buy Chinese crap at Wal Mart or any other place but to pretend that Wal Marts' market is the wealthy and not blue collar guys, which I am one of, is ridiculous.

By the way, if imports are unethical because they take away American jobs, then exports must be unethical as well, no?

32 posted on 02/29/2004 7:40:39 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: LibLieSlayer
They are using any excuse today to threaten our exports. They have already stopped beef and poultry imports from the US.

Exactly...that and China not following the free trade rules is why it isn't working for the US. Add our taxes, regulations, and legal system we don't have a chance. Wait until people stop living off thier refinancing and credit cards.
33 posted on 02/29/2004 7:42:13 AM PST by cp124 (The Great Wall Mart)
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To: lt.america
Yes, trade wars are what caused the depression

And Rudeboy says the depression was caused by protectionism...So, which is it? The jobs are leaving...High end, middle and low end...We have been infiltrated with millions of illegal aliens that will work for peanuts and will send most of the peanuts back home...Even if you're buying a burger at some joint, you can rest assured the beef in the burger likely came from Argentina or Australia...

The gov't invents (prints) the money...We get the money, spend it, and it leaves the country...It doesn't stay in circulation...So the gov't prints more money...So yesterday a Chinese trinket cost a buck...Today, it 3 bucks but our wages keep going down...

And the mainstream economists, politicians, and a few FReepers keep telling us that it's good for us...

But new jobs are coming, they say...And you ask them what jobs are coming...And they say, uh, I dunno, something will show up, it always has before...May take ten or twenty years like it did back in the 20's, but still it's good for America

34 posted on 02/29/2004 7:43:23 AM PST by Iscool
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To: sarcasm
"When American companies replace domestic employees with lower-cost foreign workers to sell more cheaply in home markets, it seems hard to argue this is the way free trade is supposed to work," Senator Schumer wrote.

He's absolutely right. Call it whatever else you want but "free trade" it ain't.

35 posted on 02/29/2004 7:46:27 AM PST by lewislynn (The successful globalist employee will be the best educated, working for the lowest possible wage.)
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To: jwalsh07
Upper middle-class may not be their target group but I have seen many 40,000 dollar or so, SUV's in the Great Wall-Mart parking lot.
36 posted on 02/29/2004 7:47:33 AM PST by Walkin Man
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To: 1rudeboy
Then perhaps a discussion of how "hardly a liberal" finds so much in common with a real one. Happens more often than you think.

Even among Presidents.

37 posted on 02/29/2004 7:48:42 AM PST by lewislynn (The successful globalist employee will be the best educated, working for the lowest possible wage.)
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To: Walkin Man
It's a real eye-opener to listen to the soulless way management speaks of outsourcing jobs. I had to sit in a meeting just this past Friday listening to how we have to be supportive of it because it "helps the company more forward". Why do I give a rat's ass if the company moves forward if I'm not part of it?

My job isn't immediately affected, and I doubt it ever will be. Gives me the luxury of time to find something else. It's hard to look around the room though and look at all the faces that won't be there in a year.
38 posted on 02/29/2004 7:49:40 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.)
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To: Walkin Man
This country is full of morons who have higher car payments than mortgage payments. Don't let $40,000 SUVs fool you into thinking their drivers can actually afford them.
39 posted on 02/29/2004 7:51:55 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.)
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To: jwalsh07
Now I don't buy Chinese crap at Wal Mart or any other place

Don't try to kid us...If you buy any thing any where in the US, you are buying Chinese "crap"...And I'd bet you leave your Lexus in the garage while you jump into your chevy and head to Wal-mart...

40 posted on 02/29/2004 7:52:37 AM PST by Iscool
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To: jwalsh07
By the way, if imports are unethical because they take away American jobs, then exports must be unethical as well, no?

No, because I am an AMERICAN!

All of my family and friends are Americans!

I live in America!

I could give a s*** how well the economies and job rates are in Mexico, Red China, India, or anyplace else!

I vote for people who (supposedly) care about AMERICANS!

Thats why free TRAITORS got their name, they don't give a d*** about their fellow countrymen and their god is money.

41 posted on 02/29/2004 7:54:40 AM PST by Walkin Man
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Is this a start?

No, there's nothing "free trade" about hiring and firing of employee's.

42 posted on 02/29/2004 7:57:57 AM PST by lewislynn (The successful globalist employee will be the best educated, working for the lowest possible wage.)
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To: Iscool
Don't try to kid us...If you buy any thing any where in the US, you are buying Chinese "crap"...And I'd bet you leave your Lexus in the garage while you jump into your chevy and head to Wal-mart...

I am always amused by geniuses like you knowing more about what I do with my money than I do. Of course, the next step is those geniuses who think they can spend my money better than I can. I see little difference between those two.

ANd I don't drive a Lexus. I drive a Ford, a 1988 Jeep Wrangler and my wife drives drives a Jeep Cherokee.

Do you shop at Wal Mart? I also take your statement to me regarding Chinese goods that you have a house full of them. Is that incorrect?

If it isn't incorrect, could you tell me how you can whine about imports while stuffing your shopping cart with same?

43 posted on 02/29/2004 7:58:02 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Luis Gonzalez
And raising their income level, thus creating a market for our goods.

If they're capable of doing the job(s) why do they need jobs of Americans to "raise their income level"? What happened to good old fashioned competition and business expansion?

44 posted on 02/29/2004 8:01:35 AM PST by lewislynn (The successful globalist employee will be the best educated, working for the lowest possible wage.)
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To: Walkin Man
So ethics are geographically based?

By the way, if you are calling me a traitor, you're not worth talking with. So can you clarify that for me, did you identify me as a traitor?

45 posted on 02/29/2004 8:01:56 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: A. Pole
Free trade means the removal of the national borders in economy (primarily removal of tariffs) and transferring the economical sovereignity from the nation state to the private international owners while the workers become the freely traded commodity without having any claims based on shared nationality or citizenship.

Not cool at all, this free trade stuff is giving those who work for a living the shaft.

The GOP and Bush are for this? Really?!!

46 posted on 02/29/2004 8:04:57 AM PST by Rudder
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To: yankeedame
The University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes
47 posted on 02/29/2004 8:05:54 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Paul Ross
India has tariffs three times what ours are ---China's are also higher than ours and those countries are doing very well with so-called free trade ---so tariffs are obviously not bad.
48 posted on 02/29/2004 8:10:50 AM PST by FITZ
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To: Rudder
A document that is thousands and thousands of pages long is not about freedom or free anything. You can get the definition of free trade if you decide you have some products you'd like to sell over in Mexico --- see what happens when you try to make it over -- it's not free trade ---not close.
49 posted on 02/29/2004 8:12:39 AM PST by FITZ
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To: A. Pole
Yes, that's it.

Sovereignity, sovereignity ... who has the sovereignity? That is the question.

The Cornucopia of real wealths opens fully only when that question is answered correctly. And in what passes for an answer from "free trade" crowd these days is nothing but excuses for theft. Grand Theft of that sovereignity.

"We the People" are the sovereign here in the US of A. That is the FIRST statement of the Constitution. That FACT of the national charter is DUE all the respect, fealty, and honor accorded the very similar statement of G-d, Himself, in the charter given to Moses at Sinai: "I am the Lord, your God, who led you out of bondage!"

No corporation or limited liability partnership exists without charter from a nation, and those WE have chartered OWE US WHATEVER DUTY WE SHALL LAY ON THEM.

It is not the Corportation (whatever "internationality" it may falsely claim) who is the Master -- although that is in too many ways the trump of the Senate and Beltway -- it is US. Moreover it is a DUTY we may not be absolved up or give up.

Because "We the People" are merely agents of our own Master, that same Master Who directed Moses himself.

It is a solemn and dread duty, and to fail at it will be our death and ruin.

50 posted on 02/29/2004 8:13:38 AM PST by bvw
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