Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Election: The growing polarization of California
Sac Bee ^ | 2/29/04 | Mark Baldassare

Posted on 02/29/2004 9:16:03 AM PST by NormsRevenge

Edited on 04/12/2004 6:06:24 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

When California voters head to the polls on Tuesday, Democrats will select a challenger to President George W. Bush and Republicans will pick their contender against U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer. Equally important, in a state where party control of legislative seats is all but assured by redistricting, it is these same Democratic and Republican voters who will determine which of the current primary candidates will go on to reap lopsided state Senate and Assembly victories in the general election this fall.


(Excerpt) Read more at sacbee.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: 2004; blameinitiatives; blamethevoters; calgov2002; california; election; growing; polarization; stateofmind
Mark Baldassare is research director at the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California in San Francisco, where he holds the Arjay and Frances Fearing Miller Chair. His recent book, "A California State of Mind: The Conflicted Voter in a Changing World," and the PPIC statewide survey mentioned in this article are available at www.ppic.org.
1 posted on 02/29/2004 9:16:04 AM PST by NormsRevenge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: *calgov2002; california
.
2 posted on 02/29/2004 9:16:55 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi Mac ... Support Our Troops! ... NO NO NO NO on Props 55-58)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
"pundits and pollsters have been obsessed with the notion that the nation is becoming increasingly split along party lines."

Yes, but the pundits are wrong. They are saying things like that to get traditional democrats back into the fold. For example, I voted for Gore, and I keep hearing from the news media that Gore voters are more solidly democrat now. But I am absolutely furious with the democratic party and am voting for Bush, and same with some of my freinds who were Gore voters. The reason the country is more evenly split now in terms of registration is because there are MORE REPUBLICANS and LESS DEMOCRATS. There has not been a solidifying of views, just an even-ing out of party registration.
3 posted on 02/29/2004 9:23:28 AM PST by Betaille (Seeing through moral relativism since 2002)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
While there is a bigger split it is disingenuous to say both parties are becoming extreme. The Demoncraps have become shameless amoral fascisti and therefore anyone who stands for traditional American beliefs in freedom and the Bill of Rights only seems extreme by comparison. The "conservatives" today are simply mild socialists. The demons are totalitarian socialists.
4 posted on 02/29/2004 9:26:37 AM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand... if you are French raise both hands.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
There is now a 23-point gap between the parties over the idea that government should not interfere with a woman's right to have an abortion (Democrats: 82%; Republicans: 59%).

So in our attempt to oust Boxer we should pick?????

5 posted on 02/29/2004 9:34:37 AM PST by byteback
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: capitan_refugio
Ping...

;>)

6 posted on 02/29/2004 9:34:57 AM PST by Who is John Galt? ("Never bring a taco to a gunfight..." Sans-Culotte, 02/26/2004)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
I still don't think California is unwinnable by conservative Republicans. I think there's always an exaggeration of these views. We'll soon learn, of course.
7 posted on 02/29/2004 9:40:26 AM PST by No Dems 2004 (Pres. Bush may not be perfect, but he's still real good)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
The CA blue/red map looks like the national version. The whole of CA is being dictated to by blue Dem strongholds. We really need to split this state up, but I know this won't happen.
8 posted on 02/29/2004 9:40:55 AM PST by umgud (speaking strictly as an infidel,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
A few decades ago, no place on earth held more promise than California. The American Dream had settled there.

Today it teeters on the brink of bankruptcy, is essentially a Third World country, and is a mess.

This is due to "Liberal" politics and policies.

Anyone with a functioning brain will immediatly understand to significance of this.

Unfortunately, there are many stupid people in the American electorate. If this were not true, "Liberals" and Democrats, such as Kerry, Edwards, etc., would not even be under consideration for the presidency.

9 posted on 02/29/2004 9:41:19 AM PST by Savage Beast (Whom will the terrorists vote for? Not George W. Bush--that's for sure! ~Happy2BMe)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: No Dems 2004
I think there is a real chance Democrats will continue to hold sway in California. Let me explain...I am a researcher on the Black Box Voting issue. I am running for Secretary of State in Washington on the BBV issue. Based on Research I have done, there is real danger in the new electronic voting machines that offer no paper. Now...I am running as a Democrat but the issue is non-partisan. I am more than happy for Republicans to win...the same goes for Democrats. But with no paper Ballot that you can look at when you are done voting...can you be sure that you vote was counted as cast? The biggest proponent of a Voter Verified Ballot in California is Jim March a Republican Gun Lobbiest. We may not see eye to eye politically, but we do see eye to eye on the need for a voter verified paper ballot. Paper...not vapor.

Andy Stephenson
10 posted on 02/29/2004 9:46:34 AM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast; Betaille
I love the comments on this thread. There are some amazingly great thoughts here. Thank you.
11 posted on 02/29/2004 9:50:30 AM PST by I_Love_My_Husband (Borders, Language, Culture, Straights - now more than ever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
Lets split....we will take the military, jobs, corporations, traditional marriage and faith and give them the UN, welfare, unions, gay marriage and the secular society they so often seek...!
12 posted on 02/29/2004 9:55:41 AM PST by Republic Rocker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
I'm a lifelong Republican voter who has come to realize that we face extinction as a nation state from both parties.
The demonrat's agenda to go, hat in hand, to the U.N. and the international community for permission to blow our noses, and the Republican's agenda to lose the Constitution in favor of melting the USofA into a Free Trade no borders, no sovereignty entity of a trade zone under International Law.

The movers and shakers in both parties are the ones that are extreme, and both a tremendous threat to our survival as a sovereign nation known as a Constitutional Republic.
13 posted on 02/29/2004 9:57:11 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
Since the stark pattern of "red states" and "blue states" first showed up on the U.S. electoral college map in the 2000 election,

That map is not nearly as instructive as the county-by-county map which shows that the Democrat votes were concentrated in the nation's parasite centers (cities). So in general, those states with more and larger parasite centers went 'blue' (Democrat) while those states with less and smaller parasite centers went 'red' (Republican).

14 posted on 02/29/2004 10:05:17 AM PST by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
Any electronic balloting system that does not generate paper receipts and a complete audit trail of keystrokes, mouse clicks, and/or screen touches is absolutely 100% guaranteed to be used fraudulently -- likely enough from the get-go -- in, say, 50-60% of precincts/districts using them.

Mark you, it is in no way difficult OR expensive (compared to the initial cost of the systems, most of which are taxpayer ripoffs to start) to provide these safeguards, and anyone saying otherwise is either A) utterly ignorant, B) a liar, C) a corrupt politician or hanger-on, or D) all of the above.

15 posted on 02/29/2004 10:05:31 AM PST by SAJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
....six in 10 Democrats favor higher state taxes and more public services, while a similar percentage of Republicans want to lower state taxes and are willing to live with fewer services.

This is where you have to lose respect for the author. He is lying and he knows it.
Democrats GET "services". Republicans PAY for "sevices".

16 posted on 02/29/2004 10:13:30 AM PST by Lancey Howard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast
There is a reasonable explanation for the polarization and areas of blue and red. The red areas are composed of American citizens tied to the tradition of conservatism. The blue areas are composed of nondemocratic masses of welfare, illegal aliens, socialist wannabees, and unproductive dregs of society interested only in trying to procure a living from the areas of red. In past generations, the population in red areas represented the norm even in the cities.

Since one man, one vote, the cities have become the epicenters of the Stalinization of American politics. Make no mistake about it, there will be a larger divide as time goes by, especially if our country has to face any crisis in economics or civil defense. The contrast between the areas will increase as the citizens flee the metropolitan areas and populate the suburbs and rural areas. Unity covers the red area and dissatisfaction and liberalism cover the blue areas. The culture war is as serious and destructive to American ideals as the war on terror.

17 posted on 02/29/2004 10:15:22 AM PST by meenie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast
Today it teeters on the brink of bankruptcy, is essentially a Third World country, and is a mess.

Worth repeating, Savage, this is why my first thought upon reaching retirement was, "What state in the deep south will I move to and make my home base?"

I still listen to Lee /Rodgers and Melanie Morgan in the mornings though, via internet

18 posted on 02/29/2004 10:20:26 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Lancey Howard

lol

T'anks for the setup line. :-)

19 posted on 02/29/2004 10:36:21 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi Mac ... Support Our Troops! ... NO NO NO NO on Props 55-58)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
we do see eye to eye on the need for a voter verified paper ballot.

Actually we need something much stronger. We need two copies of a voter verified paper ballot. One that is kept by the board of elections, and one that is kept by the voter. Both have the same serial number which can not be traced to the voter by the government, but which the voter can use to determine that his vote was counted accurately.

Board of elections paper ballots are kept & are the only acceptable method for recounts. Voter copies are the property of the voter and the government must publish on the web a voter searchable database of how each ballot was counted.

This allows the voter to go home & check that his/her vote was counted properly, and gives a record which can be used in later proceedings to correct improperly recorded votes.

Couple this with some real penalties for election fraud and the system may work pretty well.

20 posted on 02/29/2004 10:45:17 AM PST by CurlyDave
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SAJ
"Mark you, it is in no way difficult OR expensive (compared to the initial cost of the systems, most of which are taxpayer ripoffs to start) to provide these safeguards, and anyone saying otherwise is either A) utterly ignorant, B) a liar, C) a corrupt politician or hanger-on, or D) all of the above."


As a guy who designs this kinds of electronics, I could not agree with you more.

No big deal at all to provide an audit trail.

We do it all the time in banking and other industries, where there is no illusion at all about the possible failure of these electronics.

They DO fail and they CAN be tampered with.

This is a little bit frightening to me. The more I learn about this, the more I like the idea of paper ballots.

Anyone who can't properly use a paper ballot is too stupid to be voting anyway.
21 posted on 02/29/2004 10:52:41 AM PST by EEDUDE (Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: NormsRevenge
Californians who are searching for reasons why their Legislature is so gridlocked and ineffective should look no further than the primary voters like themselves who are choosing their party's candidates

You betcha Mark. I'll surrender my core beliefs so we can all get along on our way to the third world. My advice to you Mark is to take your thoughts and stuff them where the sun don't shine.

For my part Mark, I'm going to use all my creative energy figuring how to get you and your's the hell out of California.

22 posted on 02/29/2004 10:55:54 AM PST by Amerigomag
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
Welcome home to FReeRepublic
23 posted on 02/29/2004 11:10:03 AM PST by Cacique
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
Andy, the trend toward electronic voting will probably continue. The aim is to make the process part of a large area network.

In the interim us old fogies can subvert the process by continuing to vote absentee. I expect the absentee process will revert to it's original intent as its use grows in response to suspicions of the security of the touch screen.

I have complete faith that a networked system will be compromised soon after introduction, the governance will unsuccessfully attempt to suppress the news and these discussions will continue among our grandchildren.

24 posted on 02/29/2004 11:10:41 AM PST by Amerigomag
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: EEDUDE
On this issue...Democrats and Republicans can agree.

Paper...not vapor.

25 posted on 02/29/2004 11:52:32 AM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Amerigomag
In King county Washington there is no gurantee absentee voting is any safer. Here we have an ex-felon receiving and sorting incoming absentee ballots. I have documented proff that there was an attempt to rig an election using those ballots. We need strong procedures in place they are simple to implement and are very cost effective. It is really not a tech problem but an audit problem.

We don't take stairwells out of buildings just because we have elevators. We should not give up the paper ballot just because we have electronic ballots.

The Diebold system is bad...Sequoia is worse. We are going to see voter disenfranchisement on a far greater scale than we have seen before IMHO. It will affect all...not just Republicans but Democrats as well. I, quite frankly, would lay down my life for a Republicans right to vote and have it counted fairly. I am sure Republicans feel the same. The vote is the one right that keeps us from tyranny.

We must protect it fiercely. In my campaign I have had Republicans say they were voting for me because of my stance on the voting machine issue.
26 posted on 02/29/2004 12:00:04 PM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: SAJ
anyone saying otherwise is either A) utterly ignorant, B) a liar, C) a corrupt politician or hanger-on, or D) all of the above.

There are 5 talking points now...If they follow them they are definately one of the above.

Andy
27 posted on 02/29/2004 12:09:01 PM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: EEDUDE
Exactimundo. I do the same thing you do, except on the software side. As the famous Roman consul and lawyer Cicero once did, we have to ask ourselves a question about audit-trailless systems: Cui bono? Who benefits? I bet you and I know the answers to THAT one straightaway, eh?

A voting system simply MUST have paper, and preferably a receipt printed for the voter, too. Even as corrupt as St. Louis is, election-wise, the corruption is in the people, esp. the North Side hacks. The voting SYSTEM itself (which uses, guess what, butterfly ballots...and has for at least 3 decades) has no problems at all. I and my old sidekick, Bernie Gerwel, used to zip on down to the Election Board HQ a week or so before every election and RECERTIFY the software (and when have you heard about, say, Diebold doing **that**, hmm?), using a collection of 8 sample sets of 12K ballots each. Took about 3 hours the first time, and we gradually got it down to less than an hour by 1993. One time, it went so quickly -- completely glitch-free, that we didn't even bill the Board, just had 'em take us out to lunch (g!).

28 posted on 02/29/2004 12:44:48 PM PST by SAJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: CurlyDave
Absolutely. I've argued this very point for years.

Give the voter a point-of-voting receipt (exactly like a VISA card receipt), spit the other, presumably carbonless, copy into a bin below the booth (locked, of course), and Bob's your uncle. Simplest thing in the world for maintaining integrity. But, we DO want a stroke/click/touch log, too -- mostly for determining malfunction, but also to catch out certain types of fraud that might be inserted into the control software.

Now, just WHO do you think DOESN'T want these safeguards? Uh huh. Right first time.

FReegards!

29 posted on 02/29/2004 12:49:49 PM PST by SAJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
We must protect it fiercely. In my campaign I have had Republicans say they were voting for me because of my stance on the voting machine issue.

I know of no one, repeat no one, in Fresno County who supports electronic voting except county government because the state has reduced their income to the point that they can't staff polling places, even with volunteers.

Where they think they'll get the money for the hardware and the network rental is beyond me.

No I know. Schwarzenegger will add additional taxes to the existing telecommunications infrastructure to pay for the new system.

But first Schwarzenegger will accept generous campaign contributions from Cisco Systems and Diebold.

30 posted on 02/29/2004 12:52:20 PM PST by Amerigomag
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Savage Beast
"...is essentially a Third World country..."

I wonder how an "essentially Third World country" can have the fifth largest ecomony in the world and have some of the world's most innovative companies and universities? Or is your comment just about White folks being a minority in California?

31 posted on 02/29/2004 12:58:40 PM PST by Truthsayer20
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Lancey Howard
"So in general, those states with more and larger parasite centers went 'blue' (Democrat) while those states with less and smaller parasite centers went 'red' (Republican)."

I wonder why most studies then show that the "parasite centers" actually send tax monies to the rural areas (i.e. pay more in taxes than get back from the gov)? There are tons of federal welfare farmers in rural areas.

32 posted on 02/29/2004 1:02:15 PM PST by Truthsayer20
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
How could anyone with even half a real brain ever vote for someone like Gore?

It's really puzzling to me, how anyone could have analyzed the 90s and come to the conclusion that the Clinton\Gore agenda was good for America, when they almost destroyed us.

I'm glad you and some of the Gore voters are seeing the light, but what the heck took you so long?
33 posted on 02/29/2004 1:09:03 PM PST by Bullish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
You wrote:

"On this issue...Democrats and Republicans can agree.

Paper...not vapor. "

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Maybe so....maybe not. My guess is that those Dem's within the entrenched political power structures....would/will sputter and spit..and blow smoke. While a majority of Pubbies would agree....

This is based on some factual info...and some anecdotal evidence...which is about all one could ever hope to obtain anyway....Ha!!

34 posted on 02/29/2004 1:46:38 PM PST by Osage Orange (Dead men tell no tales........But they do vote Democrat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Bullish
You wrote:

"I'm glad you and some of the Gore voters are seeing the light, but what the heck took you so long? "

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

While I also welcome those who've finally "seen the light" I also wonder........

FRegards,

35 posted on 02/29/2004 1:49:05 PM PST by Osage Orange (Dead men tell no tales........But they do vote Democrat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Bullish
"how anyone could have analyzed the 90s and come to the conclusion that the Clinton\Gore agenda was good for America"

The Economy was good in the 90's, we were at peace, and Leiberman seemed somewhat conservative on social issues, I didn't see a reason to not vote for Gore. I was too young to understand what it was like during the cold war so I wasn't compelled by the republicans view on defense, and I didn't really like Bush at the time, or even the fact that a party affiliated with the rich was now starting a dynasty.
However now I know much better. National Security is a big issue again and Democrats have been completely anti-american since 2002(The first year I voted Republican). In addition, Kerry and the other dems in the presidential race are very Liberal on Social Issues. So I guess you could say my reasons for turning to Bush are similar to Zell Miller's. Also after living in the south for a few years I started to understand and like Bush's personality.
36 posted on 02/29/2004 4:34:22 PM PST by Betaille (Seeing through moral relativism since 2002)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Amerigomag
According to HAVA...we will all be using DRE's. It's the law. The money for these paperless voting systems is coming from the fed (of course). BTW rental is not an option. These machines are bought by the counties.

Oh and never call it a reciept...call it a ballot.


37 posted on 02/29/2004 4:36:05 PM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Andy_Stephenson
The Diebold system is bad...Sequoia is worse.

Our past Secretary of State, Bill Jones brought us electronic voting, and fought adding additional security measures. After leaving that position, he went to work as a consultant for Sequoia Voting Systems. He is now the leading Republican Candidate for US Senate from California.

It will be a long time before I believe that these systems are secure and not rigged.

38 posted on 02/29/2004 5:23:40 PM PST by calcowgirl (No on Propositions 55, 56, 57, 58)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
You obviously have much more than "half a brain". You were like so many that aren't educated to the true stakes of the political and cultural war that we're engaged in.

You've educated yourself and come to the only realistic conclusions. Congrats.

I'm heartened to see that smart people like yourself and Zell Miller can only be fooled for so long.
39 posted on 02/29/2004 5:48:41 PM PST by Bullish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
May I also suggest that you change your party affiliation to Republican, if not, anything but democrat.
40 posted on 02/29/2004 5:53:57 PM PST by Bullish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Bullish
"May I also suggest that you change your party affiliation to Republican, if not, anything but democrat."
I am not registered Democrat. I have always been registered Independent. One of these days i'll be able to bring myself to register republican but it will be tough. While i know that working-class americans vote for republicans NOT democrats... i still think of registering republican as something traditionally for the rich and anti-elitism runs strong in my blood.
41 posted on 02/29/2004 6:37:58 PM PST by Betaille (Seeing through moral relativism since 2002)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: KC_for_Freedom
I know what you mean. When I left California, I was wearing my running shoes.
42 posted on 02/29/2004 6:42:59 PM PST by Savage Beast (Whom will the terrorists vote for? Not George W. Bush--that's for sure! ~Happy2BMe)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Truthsayer20
No, it has nothing to do with white folks. It has to do with a state with the fifth largest economy in the world teetering on bankruptcy.
43 posted on 02/29/2004 6:45:19 PM PST by Savage Beast (Whom will the terrorists vote for? Not George W. Bush--that's for sure! ~Happy2BMe)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
i still think of registering republican as something traditionally for the rich and anti-elitism runs strong in my blood.

I'm blue collar all the way. But if you mean being a Republican is for the capitalists, than count me in.

Just because you may be rich doesn't mean you stole it somehow. Lots of riches are richly deserved and earned honestly.

What's wrong with making the better mousetrap and succeeding at the game of life? Liberals don't understand this basic (fair) concept.

44 posted on 02/29/2004 7:47:25 PM PST by Bullish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Bullish
"What's wrong with making the better mousetrap and succeeding at the game of life?"
Absolutely nothing, which is why I will in the near future register republican. But like I said, I have an instinctive anti-elitism, which is largely why I turned against the democrats.
45 posted on 02/29/2004 7:50:15 PM PST by Betaille (Seeing through moral relativism since 2002)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Betaille
....which is why I will in the near future register republican.....

Cool! Welcome aboard!

FReegards to ya' Betaille

46 posted on 02/29/2004 7:58:18 PM PST by Bullish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Osage Orange
"While a majority of Pubbies would agree...."

Unfortunately both parties "entrenched political power structures" are sputtering and spitting on this one.

We need a paper ballot now, not later
47 posted on 02/29/2004 10:12:07 PM PST by Andy_Stephenson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson