Posted on 03/04/2004 5:59:22 AM PST by JohnGalt
There are so many distortions in that article that I don't even know where to begin...I guess these Marines were having hallucinations...
Salman Pak, Iraq (AP) - Marines pulled intelligence from a shattered Republican Guard headquarters Sunday after a night of fiery bombardments, and they searched a suspected terrorist training camp, finding the shell of a passenger jet believed to be used for hijacking practice.
In the middle of a clearing of trees, rows of plastic chairs were set up like an outdoor classroom. There was a training course of climbing ropes and wooden obstacles and a three-story tower with ropes down the side to practice rappelling.
At a large intersection, on one corner there was a fire truck, and another corner was a large abandoned passenger plane, bleached by the sun, its tail broken off. The Marines inferred it was used to practice hijacking.
There was also a ravaged double-decker passenger bus, speedboats and green train cars. Storehouses were filled with gas masks.
Lt. Col. Michael Belcher said the Marines recovered "critical documents" regarding enemy weapons and communications. Parts from four computers - with "Baath Party office" scribbled on the side by Marines - were hauled out and taken by helicopters for analysis.
Throughout the town of Salman Pak, they found caches of grenades, mortars, small arms rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, as well as abandoned armored personnel carriers and SUVs.
Members of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing searched two military buildings at the edge of town, uncovering maps, manuals and a model that appeared to show how to set a booby trap.
There were pictures of Saddam everywhere, and many empty pigeon coops and bird cages. Some Marines speculated the birds had been used to detect chemical weapons. There were no obvious signs of chemical or biological weapons inside the buildings.
Inside a single-story bunker that appeared to be part of a junior officers' training camp for the Republican Guard, they found cots, lockers with snapshots of friends and children, and several English-language textbooks.
A simple gym contained weightlifting equipment and pictures of soccer teams on the wall. There were long tables in an eating hall, where the walls were painted with Bedouin scenes, sayings from the Koran and quotes from Saddam.
Aerial photos of the facility can be found at:
Photos Prove Connection Between Iraq and Al-Qaeda Terrorists
If, in fact, Iraq had no role in that attack, then an acknowledgement of that by the Clinton administration would not have been a "reward" to Iraq. It would have been a mere statement of fact. A "reward" would have been absolving the Iraqis of blame if they, in fact, actually had a role in the attack. Which is it Bill? Madeline??Anybody???
WMD/Al-Q were just excuses by the government. Yes, they should have come out and said "look, we are going to finish the war that has lasted for over a decade now". I think many people do not understand that our forces have been in a very low-level war since 1991 in Iraq, and you can blame the press or public apathy, but I think most would understand that Iraq need to be finished, had they been told that up front.
Predicate acts = wire/mail fraud through knowingly broadcasting/printing intentional misrepresentations, relied upon by the plaintiff in voting for a particular candidate?
Enterprise = the senior editors or the network/newspaper.
I guess causation would be the problem. Maybe a different plaintiff and damages theory would work.
Given the approach of elections, what do you see the Admin needs to do as an immediate (even if temporal) remedial response? I know you mentioned excusing a few CIA personnel, but what verbal response do you see the Admin needs to give?
Same as with Iraq.
However, jihadism became an important political force in the Middle East and many states were involved in it. Saddam's intelligence force was as well.
Emphasizing how states distance themselves and set limits to their involvement in terrorists while ignoring how they support them as proxies is an attempt to limit their liability.
I'm fascinated by the argument that claims were not wrong, but overstated. The critics of experts warning the US was under attack and would experience a significant terrorist attack 30 years ago were using the same tactic. It has cost 1,000s of lives.
Yousef and Nichols crossed paths in the Phillipines. Mohammed was Yousef's uncle. It is interesting to note that Yousef entered the United States on an Iraqi passport and had been known among the New York fundamentalists as "Rashid, the Iraqi". Another name that could be thrown into the mix is Abdul Rahman Yasin, a U.S. citizen who moved to Iraq in the 1960's and returned to the U.S. in 1992. After the 1993 WTC bombing, Yasin fled to Iraq and was given money and housing by Saddam Hussein's regime. There is currently a 5 million dollar reward on his head.
We WERE attacked by Saddam collaborating with al Qaeda, McVeigh and Nichols were just patsies. But I couldn't expect the fools that wrote this article to connect the dots, their hatred of Bush stands in the way.
I don't know what this guy is taking. This paragraph alone makes me think this whole piece was based on Jason Blair research...
I think somebody somewhere was a bit too optimistic on WMDs and it snowballed. Who that is, and how high they were up on the ladder, I don't know.
When I first heard the administration beating the WMD drum instead of the "look, our troops have been tied up since '91, we need to finish this, and Saddam is up there with Stalin and Hitler in regards to intent and brutality, even if his numbers weren't there" argument I got worried. I think a lot of resources were tied up looking for WMD, when they should have been focused on Saddam and Bin Laden.
I will say this in defense of Bush, I think that he used the intelligence and advice that was available to him, and it's hard to fault him for that, because it probably appeared sound. Whoever was pushing the WMD line probably either didn't think things would go as far and well as they did, or they got into a hole they couldn't back out of, and had to keep the WMD story going. How big the WMD issue is in October and November, it's hard to predict, but the mistakes that some made convincing Bush of the WMD issue could cost him his job.
Actually, I think they were right too early, but forced to act by 9/11.
Inspections ended in 1998, and despite the press spin, Hussein began rebuilding his strategic arms in 2000. The estimate was based on what had not been accounted for in 1998, the materials being brought into Iraq since then and the deals being made (significantly with Syria and N. Korea).
Had 9/11 not happened, the deal for Scuds/manufacturing with N. Korea would have gone through and the start up of weapons production would be farther along. Scrutiny intensified after 9/11 and what we're seeing is the extent of a year's worth of getting restarted. That doesn't jive with the expectations of "tons" of bio/chem agents/precursors stored in a bunch of 55 gal drums or a dozen Scuds ready to fire.
Waiting for that would have made the threat more "imminent" and justifiable. It also would have been an incredible act of malfeasance.
Did hawks "sell" the war. Yep. Did they oversell the threat? Some did, and believed what they were saying.
That's why I think simple rationale, like Saddam's lack of disclosure, Saddam's intent on maintaining Iraqi control, and Saddam's shell game of deceit could explain the error and as JG suggests, a top head sacrificed would satisfy the cry for blood as a result of the miscalculations. Tennet said, in effect, intelligence is acting on the best available evidence. Remember, if I don't deny I have a weapon or can prove I can't easily be armed, it's not a good idea to neglect the possibilities.
Same with the Al Queida (mis)link. If the evidence was sufficient to suggest a link - and I believe it was - but there lacks absolute PROOF, the action taken is a far safer option than inaction. Even should that "link" have been well down near the end of the chain, the old saying "An ounce of prevention" aptly fits....
I merely did a search on "Salman Pak, Marines". The Marines reported what they saw at the camp...are you questioning that? As far as the Rush link goes, the pictures are worth a thousand words. Yes, Salman Pak did exist. Want a different source? Okay...
The Associated Press reported that the Marines found an abandoned, weathered passenger plane, its tail broken off, and a bus and fire engine at the camp. They also found a full obstacle course, with wooden walls and barriers to be climbed over, and a three-story concrete tower draped with ropes, apparently for rappelling.
SALMAN PAK, Iraq -- The rusted shell of an old passenger jet sat out in a field, its tail broken off. Good for hijacking practice, U.S. Marines speculated Sunday as they examined an Iraqi training base about 20 miles south of Baghdad.
The Americans also found a full obstacle course as well as a three-story concrete tower draped with ropes, apparently for rappelling.
All of the stories originated from Associated Press, so I really don't see why you have your panties in a wad over the sources. Oh that's right...I forgot...you don't read anything unless it has the word neocon in every other sentence.
Marines find site of terror training
April 7, 2003, 12:48AM
CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar -- Marines overran a suspected terrorist training camp Sunday, complete with an old airliner and a rappelling tower, after picking up information from non-Iraqi fighters captured in the war.
U.S. forces earlier had captured Syrians, Egyptians and Sudanese who said they had trained in the Salman Pak camp southeast of Baghdad.
"We believe that this camp had been used to train these foreign fighters in terror tactics," U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said during a briefing. "It is now destroyed."
The Bush administration is looking for ties between Iraq and terrorism as it bolsters support for the war with Iraq. Several days after the war began March 20, the military began using the word terrorists to describe Iraq's military and paramilitaries.
The administration has also talked about possible links between al-Qaida, the terrorism group headed by Osama bin Laden, and Iraq, but so far has not uncovered evidence.
A Central Command spokesman said the U.S. military has not ruled out links between the possible terrorism camp at Salman Pak and al-Qaida.
There is evidence, however, that Iraq used the camp to train Iraqis and non-Iraqis in terror tactics.
An Iraqi military officer who defected to Turkey in 1999 described training missions at the site, about 21 miles from Baghdad, according to the London-based Iraqi National Congress.
Sabah Khailifa Khodada Alami, who now lives in Fort Worth, said Salman Pak was used for testing weapons, including chemical and biological, and for paramilitary covert action training.
Alami helped train the Fedayeen Saddam -- who have been prominent in efforts to disrupt U.S. supply lines -- in airline hijacking and sabotage. The camp had courses in kidnapping and assassination.
He said they used a Boeing aircraft to practice hijacking a plane or a bus without weapons. Alami said the Iraqi intelligence service, the Mukhabarat, trained a group of non-Iraqis separately.
The Associated Press reported that the Marines found an abandoned, weathered passenger plane, its tail broken off, and a bus and fire engine at the camp. They also found a full obstacle course, with wooden walls and barriers to be climbed over, and a three-story concrete tower draped with ropes, apparently for rappelling.
A former Iraqi intelligence officer who defected in 2001 described "Islamicists" training on a Boeing 707 from about 1995 to 2000.
Middle East expert Dale R. Davis said the non-Iraqi fighters encountered by U.S. forces were most likely working in Iraq when the war began and either volunteered or were conscripted.
Recent arrivals flocking to the Iraqi cause probably would not have had the training to fight in cohesive units as the captured non-Iraqis were apparently doing, said Davis, who heads the international program at Virginia Military Institute.
The Salman Pak base was deserted when the Marines got to it Sunday morning after bombing and shelling it through the night.
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