Posted on 03/04/2004 3:58:48 PM PST by irv
Bingo! Computerize the things to make them more efficient, and they're more efficient for the bad guys, too.
Next up: spam voting!
Give everyone a piece of paper with a list of candidates' names on it. Person circles (or places 'X' next to, or something equally obvious) name of preferred candidate. Drops ballot in a box on the way out. Ballots in box are tabulated by people, using their eyes, at the end of the day, in some fair way (i.e. by more than one person, representing more than one party, etc).
From everything I have heard about all our other voting technologies, I don't believe there are any valid complaints about or improvements to be made upon such a system. Efficiency? Simplicity? This has it. Look at all the procedures that this guy describes, by contrast; cards and sleeves, papers and books, people putting cards on a piano... I mean WTF is the point. And if you look at 2000 when suddenly everyone decided that by default (unless the Supreme Court "steals the election") it's ultra important for all ballots to be hand counted ANYWAY, *in addition to* the machine tallies, and you start to realize, what the hell is the point of the initial machine tallies? And what about cost, you're telling me Diebold isn't thrilled to have this contract? How on earth could it be a cost savings over papers n pencils?
The only real advantage seems to be a savings in time, since all other things being equal computers can count faster than humans. But 1. that time savings is partially eaten away by all the extra procedures and 2. so what? we can't wait a day or two to learn the outcome?
This method has worked before, but it really is prone to fraud. Example: forge some ballots (or steal them before the election). Someone distracts the judges for about half a second, and whlie they're looking the other way, you slip an extra hundred votes for your guy in the box.
We really can do better. It's just that the current method isn't enough better.
Not really. If this guy is to be believed, the Diebold system is far more prone to fraud (and *uncatchable* fraud, and fraud on a *mass* scale). Of course, any voting system which could be designed by humans can be defrauded, but perfection is an unrealistic standard.
Example: forge some ballots (or steal them before the election).
Oh, it's as easy as that? "just" forge (or steal) ballots?
Someone distracts the judges for about half a second, and whlie they're looking the other way, you slip an extra hundred votes for your guy in the box.
Heh. Sounds like a good I Love Lucy episode. And again, I marvel at how easy you seem to think that would be. "just" have "someone" distract "the judges" (all of them, apparently).
Of course,
-stuffing "an extra hundred" ballots into the voting slot is not so easy if you make the slot small enough. how long is this "distraction" anyway?
-creating "hundreds" of fraudulent ballots is hard, painstaking work, or the fraud is too obvious (like if they're all done with the same handwriting, pen, etc)
-once those judges are through being "distracted", don'cha think they'll figure out that none of them were watching the box, and wonder what shenanigans may have taken place? Won't they be suspicious of the "distraction"? And heck, if fraud is as easy as "distract the judges" then the truth is that you can do that with *any* system.
I'm sorry, but you seem to have conjured up a worst-case, preposterous scenario. For some reason paper ballots aren't good enough because they wouldn't survive all sorts of wacky hi-jinx (what if there's an asteroid strike??), but meanwhile, elaborate systems involving "cards" and "sleeves" and double- and triple-checks of books are deemed superior (presumably because they involve "technology").
We really can do better. It's just that the current method isn't enough better.
The current method is WORSE than paper ballots in almost every respect other than time-of-counting. And when it comes to paper ballots, "we really can do better" is an unsupportable statement unless you actually specify a system which really is better. You have not.
There really is no good reason to be dissatisfied with a paper ballot system. "They COULD BE defrauded due to [wacky scenario]" is not a good reason (wacky scenarios can be invented for any voting system). "They are imperfect" is not a good reason (nothing humans can come up with is perfect). The only reason we seem to be left with is that they're not "technological" enough, and that we won't know election outcomes in prime time on election night.
Boo hoo.
Ok, but then what is the purpose here? "Tabulation" is well within the capability of unaided humans. In fact for basically any voting technique you can name, humans will be *better* than machines at tabulation. ("better" meaning: more accurate). Machines don't have brains. Brains can sometimes be necessary to tabulate someone's vote correctly. (Voters (because they're humans) sometimes do odd, unpredictable things with their ballots-or-whatever-is-being-used, which can confuse machines, yet can be easily understood by other humans.)
I see only two benefits then:
1. We know the outcome slightly faster (whee!)
2. We get to say that we use computers & technology.
Oh, another one, I guess:
3. Government contracts for one or a few tech firms.
Call me less than convinced.
I pray you're not an election judge.
I'm pretty sure Cincinnati uses (or used, anyway, in 2000) punch-cards.
I was arguing for paper ballots.
I agree that punch-card voting systems are easy to defraud. For example, I'd bet that virtually all of the "dimpled chads" we heard so much about in 2000, were actually the result of partisan poll-workers grabbing stacks of punch-cards and trying to punch them for their man all at once. (Because "dimpled chads" are just too difficult to create one at a time; the machines almost make it physically impossible - you either break the perforation or you don't, without reinforcement it doesn't hold for "dimpling".)
This is exactly the kind of thing which led me to believe that paper ballots would be superior. Which is why I'm arguing for paper ballots, contrary to what you seem to think given that you've mentioned Cincinnati (which doesn't use paper ballots at all) as a "counterexample".
And you think the time-honored tradition of ballot-box stuffing is a wacky scenario?
Ballot-box stuffing is not a wacky scenario and I never said it was. (I'm afraid your reading comprehension is lacking.) Yes, ballot-box stuffing is a time-honored tradition. Attempts at ballot-box stuffing have been made and will continue to be made no matter what we do.
But successful ballot-box stuffing is simply not as easy to pull off as you had implied, if paper ballots are used. You had suggested that paper ballots are "prone to fraud" but your only reason for believing this was to spin a vague hypothetical tale of a "distraction" and "hundreds" of ballots stuffed into a millimeters-thin slot, with nobody involved getting caught. I am saying that they would be caught and that this fraud would be unsuccessful. You have no good reason for believing otherwise, do you?
You can't just say a system is prone to fraud because some people "could" pull off a desperate plan and everything could go right and maybe they won't get caught. Because (unless you give me some reason to believe otherwise), from the story you've given, seems to me that chances are it would be unsuccessful and they would be caught and the fraud would be prevented. Which would make the system not "prone" to fraud, but rather, resistant to it.
(I would not claim that it is immune to fraud, but of course, nothing which could be created by humans is. Again, the standard here is that you need to actually suggest a system which is better than paper ballots. It's not enough to say "paper ballots aren't perfect". Nothing is.)
I pray you're not an election judge.
Why? What have I said to indicate I would not make a good election judge? (Are you even reading my posts?) You're the one who implied that judges can be so easily "distracted" by some "distraction" that they will look away from the ballot box for an extended period of time. Speak for yourself!
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