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Krauthammer: "Gibson's Blood Libel"
Washington Post ^ | Mar. 5, 04 | Charles Krauthammer

Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuff

Edited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Man, you are sure reaching with some broad generalizations.
101 posted on 03/04/2004 11:42:18 PM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Sabertooth
And what is the response of the Christian to be?

Even as the Lord has said...

Love your enemy, even as yourself...

the infowarrior

102 posted on 03/04/2004 11:42:28 PM PST by infowarrior (TANSTAAFL)
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To: churchillbuff
You mean Jews have not died on the battlefield in Iraq? Perhaps you're telling us too much about yourself.
103 posted on 03/04/2004 11:42:35 PM PST by BCrago66
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To: Texasforever
I don't think you gave any thought at all to the question.

Just let Abe Foxman make a movie showing Jesus of Nazareth as a womanizing false prophet and let's see how loud you scream.

They are not hurt by the Gospels. Maybe unhappy and unbelieving. They have never complained like this before. Try to take a step or two in their mocasins. It's the way that Gibson made this movie they disagree with.

I think it very telling how you all toss Krauthammer to the wolves when he was just yesterday one of your best friends.
104 posted on 03/04/2004 11:42:55 PM PST by mercy
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
He knows that every Jewish family has lost thousands of people over the generations because of inciting portrayals such as Gibson's.

You apparently consider the Gospel an "inciting portrayal" of events as well. If you do, you're missing the entire point of Christianity. The entire point. That is sad.

105 posted on 03/04/2004 11:43:05 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: wardaddy
Ultimately, a civilized society must disarm its citizenry

(shiver)

106 posted on 03/04/2004 11:43:57 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: hellinahandcart
If it's the result of preconditioning (which I agree it is to some degree), that also constitutes a fabrication. There is simply no hatred for Jews expressed in this movie. It is unreasonable for any group of people to demand that members of that group are portrayed only in positive ways. Can you imagine a black lobby being treated seriously if they demanded that no black person ever be shown on film as a bad guy?

None of the myriad peoples of the world have hands that are clean of sin throughout all their generations. Neither may any man justly be held responsible for the errors of another.
107 posted on 03/04/2004 11:44:31 PM PST by thoughtomator (Political Correctness is fascism)
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To: ClancyJ
Why' when you disagree with one person who happens to be Jewish, do you make general negative statements about Jews? Do you have a personal problem?
108 posted on 03/04/2004 11:44:44 PM PST by BCrago66
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To: mercy
I didn't toss anyone to the wolves. In fact I left this thread because of some idiots comment about the holocaust being exaggerated. I hate bigots on both sides of this issue.
109 posted on 03/04/2004 11:45:49 PM PST by Texasforever (When democrats attack it is called campaigning)
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To: ClancyJ


The critics are making Christians start examining their 80% dem voting patterns

Oddly, they will vote with American Islamics in majority numbers this November

Sleeping with their enemies

Hum the theme from M*A*S*H now


You know the words
110 posted on 03/04/2004 11:45:50 PM PST by autoresponder (JAMES BOND: http://00access.tripod.com/007.html J-FK: http://00access.tripod.com/Kerry-11.html)
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To: Mr. Mojo
I don't think so. I think the real truth has finally been flushed out. Tolerance is a one-way street for mostof these hypocrite Jews-mostly the liberal ethnic.

I think society's next act is to ostricize, scold, and pressure Christian-hating Hebrews into being "tolerant".

Add to the laws; maybe some sensitivity training, a class perhaps... What's good for Us is good for them, right? Fairness,after all.
111 posted on 03/04/2004 11:46:02 PM PST by Finalapproach29er (" Permitting homosexuality didn't work out very well for the Roman Empire")
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet



Also, it was Mel Gibson's own hand that drove the spike. It was a symbolic but very significant gesture. Maybe some of our Jewish friends aren't aware that he did that, or don't understand why.

See my #55.

We all put Christ on the Cross. We all drove in the nails.

Mel Gibson knows it, and he wants everyone to know that he knows it.


112 posted on 03/04/2004 11:46:10 PM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: claudiustg; Mr. Mojo
I don't know squat about Krauthammer's personal observance but at least since the early days when he abandoned the confines of THE LEFT, he has been very very up front and proactive about Jewish Identity and Israel....not something I fault btw.

How religious he is I have not a clue but he is very Jewish.
113 posted on 03/04/2004 11:46:34 PM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Lancey Howard
****As a Christian, I certainly didn't look to see if there was any "anti-semitism" in the film - - why would I? But I do know that Jesus himself was a Jew, as were Mary, Simon, Peter, May Magdelen, and a whole lot of other people central to Jesus' life and times. ****

Stop. Pretend you are a Jew. All those folks you just named are heretics. the lowest form of life. Under Mosaic law of the time they deserved death.

The deep truth is .... no, you can't handle the truth.
114 posted on 03/04/2004 11:46:39 PM PST by mercy
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To: stands2reason
Yes....amazing...he should know better.
115 posted on 03/04/2004 11:47:08 PM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
"Boy are you ever wrong about Krauthammer! He's as far from an "ACLU jerk" as one can get. If you read his column regularly, you would know this. Krauthammer does not hate anyone, but he does know what it is to be hated and to have his entire people hated going back generations. He knows history. He knows that every Jewish family has lost thousands of people over the generations because of inciting portrayals such as Gibson's. The Jewish community has been decimated again and again throughout history at the hand of those who are whipped into a violent, sadistic rage by the local representatives of the Holy See. You might not like to hear that, but it is the case. If the shoe were on the other foot, you would understand. Jews hate violence and the sight of it; From what I have read, some Christians find the violence of the movie uplifting are dragging their kids to see this violence. Most Christian academics, who have actually studied what is really known about the first century, are as upset about the fictionalization of the facts, as is Krauthammer."

The Germans summarily executed my uncle in 1941 because he was a Serb (along with 6000 other men women and children on the same day).

I do not hate today's Germans for what those Germans did 63 years ago.

The Turks enslaved my people for 500 years, tried to convert them and to destroy their religion and culture.

I do not hate the Turks today for what the Ottomans did all those centuries ago.

so...GET OVER YOUR NARCISSISM AND SELF-ABSORPTION AND LIVE IN TODAY'S WORLD.

P.S. The "Christian Academics" you refer to (like the Jesus seminar perhaps?) are neither Christian nor academic. At best they are apostates, at worst devil-worshippers.
116 posted on 03/04/2004 11:47:21 PM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Most Christian academics, who have actually studied what is really known about the first century, are as upset about the fictionalization of the facts, as is Krauthammer.

Show us these academics and their political leanings too. Methinks most of them are CINO's.

117 posted on 03/04/2004 11:48:15 PM PST by drlevy88
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To: mercy
Can't let a little thing like normal human respect amoungst the races get in the way of your crusade though.

What's a little "blood libel" between friends?

118 posted on 03/04/2004 11:48:48 PM PST by stands2reason
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To: Al Simmons
And similarly, I have agreed with people like Hugh Hewitt on most things until now, and am dumfounded to realize that he has blinders on as to the danger of this movie among the world's Christians, especially those who already continue to put on passion plays each year, in which things are no complete until blood is drawn and replicas of Pilot and the Jews are beaten. God help us all from the power of this movie.
119 posted on 03/04/2004 11:49:28 PM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: drlevy88
I think the central problem here is that most of the christian world is not at all empathetic with the Jews. A race of people. Christianity is a religion. Jews are a race. Their cultural heretage and experiences are very different from christian americans. Were you ever called a kike. Christ killer? Heeb? Were your grandparents gassed?
120 posted on 03/04/2004 11:49:50 PM PST by mercy
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
From what I have read, some Christians find the violence of the movie uplifting

You got it exactly bassackwards. It's the SACRIFICE that Christ voluntarily made ("No one takes My life from Me but I give it of my own accord") that is uplifting to every believer. I guess you're offended that Jesus didn't just sprout a faucet labeled "blood" on His forehead, and turn it on.

121 posted on 03/04/2004 11:51:25 PM PST by drlevy88
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To: Finalapproach29er
"I don't think so. I think the real truth has finally been flushed out. Tolerance is a one-way street for mostof these hypocrite Jews-mostly the liberal ethnic. "

Dude - calm down. Characterizing all Jews as hypocrites because of the works of a segment of secularized NON_BELIEVING Jews makes about as much sense as criticising all Catholics because of the works of that secularized NON_BELIEVING lapsed Catholic Teddy 'The Swimmer' Kennedy.

122 posted on 03/04/2004 11:52:19 PM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: Al Simmons
Hey Al - your argument, such as it is, doesn't become more convinving BECAUSE YOU END IT WITH A PERSONAL ATTACK USING CAPITAL LETTERS.

Do you know how to reason?
123 posted on 03/04/2004 11:52:28 PM PST by BCrago66
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Good retort....I was looking for one meself.
124 posted on 03/04/2004 11:52:37 PM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
God help us all from the power of this movie.

God help us all understand the real message of this movie. A fair number of individuals seem to have completely missed it.

125 posted on 03/04/2004 11:53:12 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: mercy
I'm sorry, but heresy is not among even close to being a major sin in Judaism. I don't even recall any mention of it in the Torah. Jesus' "sin" was threatening the power of an entrenched ruling clique, nothing more.
126 posted on 03/04/2004 11:53:14 PM PST by thoughtomator (Political Correctness is fascism)
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To: thoughtomator
There is simply no hatred for Jews expressed in this movie.

Glad to hear it, I'm seeing it this weekend.

I really, really wish there was some way we could all see it "clean", without all the baggage that was thrust on us.

127 posted on 03/04/2004 11:53:48 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
I think that even a lot of people who came out of it claiming to have had a spiritual experience missed it.
128 posted on 03/04/2004 11:54:07 PM PST by thoughtomator (Political Correctness is fascism)
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To: churchillbuff
Krauthammer "one with the ACLU?"

Boy, are you out of touch with reality.
129 posted on 03/04/2004 11:54:13 PM PST by eddiespaghetti (with the meatball eyes.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Yeah, well I think Mel and for that matter most RCs have missed it to.
130 posted on 03/04/2004 11:54:19 PM PST by mercy
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To: Mr. Mojo
I hope you are right. History indicates otherwise.
131 posted on 03/04/2004 11:54:25 PM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: mercy
Ah, go ahead. Tell me how I should feel.
132 posted on 03/04/2004 11:54:25 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: drlevy88
How can you live with the guilt? You're the guy who sinned, and yet you allowed Christ, the perfect man, to take the fall for your own sinful behavior. You're profiting from the blood and sacrifice of the better man.
133 posted on 03/04/2004 11:56:10 PM PST by BCrago66
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To: churchillbuff
The Israel-first evangelicals perhaps will have their eyes opened by the anti-christian viciousness displayed by some of the neoconservatives.


Your own intolerance is showing. You seem to be studying in the Buchanan-Sobran school of history and rhetoric.
134 posted on 03/04/2004 11:56:27 PM PST by eddiespaghetti (with the meatball eyes.)
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To: churchillbuff
The Israel-first evangelicals perhaps will have their eyes opened by the anti-christian viciousness displayed by some of the neoconservatives

Buddy you need to go back to Liberty Forum.

135 posted on 03/04/2004 11:57:26 PM PST by Texasforever (When democrats attack it is called campaigning)
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To: Sabertooth
How is thinking clearly about a full 2,000 years of Christian history. No, he is not indulging in wishful thinking that no harm will come from this movie.
136 posted on 03/04/2004 11:57:37 PM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
"And similarly, I have agreed with people like Hugh Hewitt on most things until now, and am dumfounded to realize that he has blinders on as to the danger of this movie among the world's Christians, especially those who already continue to put on passion plays each year, in which things are no complete until blood is drawn and replicas of Pilot and the Jews are beaten. God help us all from the power of this movie."

Really? What state are such passion plays held? The Phillippines perhaps? Maybe you are thinking of the just-passed Shiite blood-letting holiday? What century do you live in?

Are you a troll or do you just need to get some help for your paranoia?
137 posted on 03/04/2004 11:57:43 PM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Show us the lynchings, mob or otherwise, of Jews that this movie has sparked? You can bet our liberal media would be shoving it in our faces day in and day out.
138 posted on 03/04/2004 11:57:58 PM PST by drlevy88
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To: hellinahandcart
You can. Go in expecting nothing more than a good movie. Ironically, I think being Jewish helped me see the movie for what it is - I have no vested interest in the story.
139 posted on 03/04/2004 11:58:21 PM PST by thoughtomator (Political Correctness is fascism)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now





God help us all from the power of this movie.

God help you to the power of the Gospel.


140 posted on 03/04/2004 11:58:52 PM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: BCrago66
Jesus shouldered my guilt. The only debt I owe Him, is love.
141 posted on 03/04/2004 11:59:12 PM PST by drlevy88
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To: mercy
Where have you been?

Anti-Christian or Anti-Conservative (sometimes interchangable) films have been standard Hollywood fodder for nearly 4 decades now.
142 posted on 03/05/2004 12:02:06 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: wardaddy
I'm beginning to think that the only thing that would satisfy some people would be to keep Christianity in the closet. Silenced. And all because some people insist on distorting its message.

At least I know Mel Gibson understands it.
143 posted on 03/05/2004 12:02:07 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Most Christian academics, who have actually studied what is really known about the first century, are as upset about the fictionalization of the facts, as is Krauthammer.

Then they are upset with the Bible. Would you like Christians to tell you what you should believe about your religion?

144 posted on 03/05/2004 12:02:23 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: lizma
But all of that was based on church teachings ( the Jews killed Christ! ) and some of the most virulent anti-Semitic times, in European nations, followed Medieval PASSION PLAYS,that were performed during Lent.

Jesus was a Jew, but by the early Middle Ages,that was NEVER mentioned by Christians and certainly NOT by the church hierarchy.

145 posted on 03/05/2004 12:02:29 AM PST by nopardons
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To: BCrago66
"Do you know how to reason?"

Given my legal training, probably much better than you.

Sorry - but my personal and my own family's experience at the hands of nazis and communists has left me with ZERO tolerance for those who carry water for them.

And make no mistake about it - if you hate God, you are carrying water for them.
146 posted on 03/05/2004 12:03:45 AM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: mercy
Yeah, well I think Mel and for that matter most RCs have missed it to.

Mel isn't the problem. He proved that when he used his own hand to drive the spike in the film.

147 posted on 03/05/2004 12:04:35 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: Al Simmons
Well for starters, New Mexico and Mexico for example. This movie is going worldwide and the Aramaic line in the film that says "The Jews, because they 'killed Christ,' must be pursued and punished for all generations" and which Gibson was convinced by critics not to include in the English translation in the U.S. release of the film might very likely be translated for other countries showings of the film.
148 posted on 03/05/2004 12:05:23 AM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
I said the same thing recently. Some of these detractors sound like they would only be happy with a mass renouncement.

Unbelievable. But you know what?

We brought this on ourselves. Hopefully this will at least galvanize folks enough to say "Wait a minute" at least.
149 posted on 03/05/2004 12:06:35 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: nopardons
In the medieval times, the viewers were largely ignorant about the bible, or indeed about the larger circumstances of Christ's suffering. If you notice, this film has a resurrection. How can we complain about the Jews killing someone who didn't stay dead?
150 posted on 03/05/2004 12:07:05 AM PST by drlevy88
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