Skip to comments.Krauthammer: "Gibson's Blood Libel"
Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuffEdited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
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And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Some of the pictures that circled the net during the beginning of latest Iraq war showing Hussein's 'ways' were absolutely horrifying.
The accounts of the human beings placed in shredders are beyond my capacity to fully absorb.
I so hope we (the US) have the forsight and courage to prop up the fledgling democracy movement in Iran, and to abide by our word to the Kurds.
I'll be very disappointed if these articles of honor are transgressed, because it can't always be about strategy, at some point, especially when you are trying to lead by example, you cannot compromise, no matter what that costs.
So to officers. So do Republicans. So do those with graduate degrees. Envy leads to hatred.
As an outsider looking at your posts I get the impression you have studied some formula regarding bits and pieces of scripture. I am fully aware of many teachers who desire to have some sort of exclusive angle in regard to scripture interpretation. What I have noticed is that followers of these types of teachers (And this includes seminary students who find a professor that has strong leadership skills and is very persuasive) to ignore the whole counsel of God. Setting aside the individual truths that God wishes to reveal to us as individuals, to test it by our formula.
The downfall of using certain passages to establish a doctrine that you then try to force all other scriptures to comply with, is that one begins to ignore the overall context of the scriptures in the big picture.
Christ said I have foretold you all things, seems to me ALL is ALL!
All of what Christ foretold takes human beings a lifetime to assimilate, and we are still incapable of comprehending the deepest truths of scripture, for we see Him through a glass darkly.
1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
God tells us how to approach understanding Him in the above passage. With humility and respect. Because, as Christians, we have reestablished fellowship with the God we can learn the truths revealed in scripture. However we must be careful not to put God in a box as Job's friends did.
The truths of God are inexhaustible, and in our unglorified bodies none of us have a capacity for them all. We should cherish the truths God chooses to reveal to us through our diligence in not only study, but also prayer.
Keep setting up these straw men, and I'll keep knocking them down.
First, have you actually read my post? It clearly says that I believe that upwards of 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis. And while you're re-reading, could you kindly point out where I said that anti-semitism (a form of racial hatred)is not a sin? Racial hatred or the mere sense of racial superiority is directly condemned by God.
As I said before, to any rational mind, Holocaust denial or revisionism is: "idiocy, or dangerous idiocy". But being in error is not the same as sin. Only if it were a conscious and deliberate decision to minimize the Holocaust becuase of malice toward the Jews-- only then would it rise to the level of sin.
Are there people who meet that standard? Sure. Is Hutton Gibson one of them? I don't think so.
In any case, does it really matter whether 4,5, or 6 million Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis. Does it make the Nazis any less evil?
You state: I am not your bro
I apologize. I was under the mistaken impression that the sons and daughters of Adam were brothers and sisters. Would you prefer Cousin, then?
As I said before, to any rational mind, Holocaust denial or revisionism is: "idiocy, or dangerous idiocy". But being in error is not the same as sin. Only if it were a conscious and deliberate decision to minimize the Holocaust becuase of malice toward the Jews-- only then would it rise to the level of sin. Are there people who meet that standard? Sure. Is Hutton Gibson one of them? I don't think so.
We do not read this from the same book.
In any case, does it really matter whether 4,5, or 6 million Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis. Does it make the Nazis any less evil?
It does not make the Nazis any less evil. Holocause Denial and Revisionism is used to try to make the Nazis appear less evil. If Mel Gibson were making a movie about it he would show the adversary involved in it plotting a sequel to the Holocaust.
You state: I am not your bro. I apologize. I was under the mistaken impression that the sons and daughters of Adam were brothers and sisters. Would you prefer Cousin, then?
You need not apologize. I do not accept the premises of Islam. If you are a friend to Israel and the Jewish people I will call you sadiqi. It would be more natural than Ibn Am or Ibn Hal.
Are you such a friend ?
Holocaust Denial and Revisionism are used
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
I believe the above prophecy is fullfilled and we could experience the rapture of the gentile church any day now. Currently Israel is in postition for the rebuilding of the temple with the peace accord established between Jew and Muslim by the anti-christ. Hello twelve tribes in Israel revealed in Chapter seven of Revelation and Ezekial 37:23.
1. Should Gibson have condemned his father publicly? I say no, and you say yes. We have been through that a few times, and I think you know why from a moral perspective I feel that is unacceptable.
2. Is Holocaust denial/revisionism a sin? You say it always is. I say that it is ignorance and stupdity but not a sin. Lack of knowledge or facts or an unconscious error cannot be a sin. A just God would not deem it so. But when this denial is made consciously to trivialize the suffering of the Jews, then it does rise to the level of sin.
You say that our difference here is because we don't read from the same book. Well, I have read your Book, too, and while I am no scholar, it seems to me that God is not unjust and would not condemn a man for mere ignorance of the facts.
3. You say that you do not accept the premises of Islam. That's fine. But you do understand that the fundamental premise of Islam is that there is one supreme deity who created the universe and sent prophets to be his signs?
Do you disagree with that as a Jew?
Another fundamental premise is that all men are brothers and equal in the eyes of God, separated by the good they do in the time alotted. Is this not a premise of the Old Testament which describes Man as the sons of Adam to be judged for their deeds.
4. Finally, you close by saying "If you are a friend to Israel and the Jewish people I will call you sadiqi".
First, I do not choose nations for friends, I choose men and women, be they Christian, Muslim, or Jew. Second, in Arabic, "sadiq" means truthful. I would not be truthful if I told you that I am a friend to the modern state of Israel. My sympathies are obviously on the other side of that one. But that does not mean I would tolerate malignant injustice towards a Jew-- or anyone else.
It certainly does not mean that I could glory in the murder of innocents, even enemy innocents, whose lives are claimed by murderering beasts who dare to fly the banner of my ancient fathers.
So, maybe I'm not a friend to Israel, but I'm a pretty good friend and business partner to many American Jews.
Israel Shamir may be a gifted social critic but he makes the same mistake that so many people do today--dividing one number by another and calling it a percentage. To make a percentage out of a ratio, you have to multiply it by 100. Thus 6 out of 13,000 is .04%, not .0004%.
All that being said, the blood of American soldiers must not go to waste. The sacrifices our people have made must bear the fruits of liberty for the Iraqi people.
Now, that we're there, we've got to finish it. If we walk away after all this... I don't even want to imagine the consequences.
The Paleoconservatives and older Bush hands like Baker and Scowcroft were right about a lot of their concerns with this enterprise. But now, I guess all of us have to pray real hard that this ends well.
Please. No one of any consequence, that I'm aware of, has suggested that this movie should be officially censored. They've done no more than state their opinion of it. The raw emotion of the majority of posters on this topic gives them away and reveals them for what they are--faux Christians with more devotion to Mel Gibson and his movie than to the tenets of their faith. If what I'm seeing here isn't exactly anti-Semitism, why, it's the best facisimile of it to come along in quite some time.
In the long run, breaking faith with your allies isn't even good strategy -- word gets around....
Do you know what you are talking about!
Yes, I think I do.
I'm sorry to say that I supported the War uncritically, and with an ease that upon reflection I find unsettling and embarrassing. Especially in light of my vicarious -but stark and vivid- exposure to the horrors of War, via my parents, and their personal, all to real and very much non-vicarious experiences in Italy, during WW II. And, all this from a girl who has always considered it prudent, to hold any man aspiring to the presidency in suspicious regard, simply by dint of the fact that he seeks it. I like President Bush a lot, but blind loyalty is a very, very dangerous thing, and I won't let that happen again. I'm still not sure if going into Iraq was the right or wrong thing to do, but events in the last 2 months caused me to reconsider- critically.
The best friend a soldier has is the citizen, who with common sense, historical perspective critically assess the necessity of any War, any invasion, any incursion', etc. Once the battle has been engaged, the soldier's best friend is a supportive, vigilantly engaged citizenry with eyes and ears at the ready to reconcile, or not, talk and facts.
A soldier cannot speak for him or herself, therefore it's the responsiblity of the citizenry to see to it that they are not considered sometime, somewhere in the middle of a list of objectives.
Hamza01, your desire that we now get things right over there, is not only on point, it's an imperative.
President Bush is much less likely to throw in the towel than Mr. Kerry, of that I'm nearly certain. And I do think President Bush is keen on doing things honorably, at least I hope he is. Still though, Yalta is an all too recent reminder that even following enormous expenditures of conviction, courage and bloodshed, the path of least resistance still has the power to ensnare.
The Law of Advantages and Rewards of the long view are not neceessarily suspended because of political consideration or because the going gets real rough and complicated. President GHW Bush had the perfect opportunity to rid the world of Hussein in 91. True, the coalition would have balked, but Mr. Bush had all he needed to make the case for removing him, punctuated boldly by Hussein's actual -versus grave and gathering- aggression against neighboring Kuwait.
As I understand it, he left the Kurds in the same position JFK left those brave men who charged the Bay of Pigs in '62 or '63, whatever year that was. JFK's abandonment of those men is an enormous indictment of his true lack of character, and an absolutely low-rent, unforgivable moment in his administration of the Presidency.
Now, it has to be said that the Elder Bush can't be accused of stooping to the same level of expediency' as JFK, because JFK abandoned those men -point blank- in the middle of the intended objective of the mission, while GHWB abandoned the Kurds in the midst of tangential strategy to the mission. Perhaps that's what GW is alluding to when he uses the word strategery?
Anyway, I don't want to see that happen. The Kurds have the closest thing to a working Democracy in that area, and which was viable even in the midst of Hussein's reign of terror. We do owe them, in my opinion. And we may not owe the Iranians as much, but they are not a country so used to the yoke that they hold no promise. Iran holds enormous promise, if we can just aid where we can, and take the long view.
Thank you for being Saadiq with me. That is the first step to being a Sadeeq. Holocaust Denial is not always a sin. What does a child know ? There is ignorance and there is willful, malicious ignorance. On that point we agree. I have fond memories of Moslems who were kind to me. I have some other memories also but I am alive and unharmed.
As for the fundamental precept of Islam, I take that to be alShehadeh which I can never accept as true. There is one G-d and he delights in all who perform justice tempered with mercy.
Try to keep an open mind and heart toward Israel.
Alf Shukr for sharing.
Saddened to hear that you have been harmed by Muslims. In my experience, a good number of bastards populate every nation. And I, too have run into people of varying faith and hue who have tried to do me harm. Number of them were from my own ethnic heritage. Over time, I have learned not to let a limited personal experience cast a shadow over reason, and let prejudice color my views of any group. But it is certainly not easy.
The Shahadah is the declaration of faith which states "There is no God but God. And Mohammed is the Messenger of God". I take it that it's the second part you cannot accept. Understandable.
But if Mohammed himself could live with that, well then so can I.
And I will keep an open heart and mind for Israel. I hope you will consider doing the same for the Arabs of Palestine.
Shukran ya aqi (this you will know) Mutafakkaran biradar (same thing in Farsi)
I'm surprised at this article because I usually agreed with Krauthammer in the past. Most Jewish journalists are upset about The Passion, which follows the Bible, IMO, and they're never going to accept this movie. They've managed to create a blockbuster with their publicity.
Jesus was fully God and fully man while on earth. As a man He would have Satan constantly whispering in His ear. If Satan never leaves us, why would you think he would leave The Son Of Man??
Krauthammer is completely off kilter on this one. What is his problem??
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