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Krauthammer: "Gibson's Blood Libel"
Washington Post ^ | Mar. 5, 04 | Charles Krauthammer

Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuff

Edited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: Al Simmons
If you're in favor of gun confiscation, you're carrying water for them too.

That upset me much more than finding out that Krauthammer didn't like "The Passion" (which is after all, only a movie), and I never knew that before tonight...

151 posted on 03/05/2004 12:07:16 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: wardaddy
---There are very very few Conservative Christians against the film and usually sadly because of some dumb archaic post Reformation garbage. ---

That "dumb archaic post Reformation garbage" we call our Doctrine.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=523

152 posted on 03/05/2004 12:07:22 AM PST by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
How is thinking clearly about a full 2,000 years of Christian history.

Krauthammer was ranting about anti-Semitism in a film where none exists.

I'm not suggesting there as been no anti-Semitism in Christian History, yet I would also offer that there is a bit more to Christian History than that.

No, he is not indulging in wishful thinking that no harm will come from this movie.

He, and you, are engaging in religious paranoia and not a small amount of anti-Christian bigotry. You are flagellating the present with the horrors of the past, and accusing living Christians of wicked intentions.

Remove the plank from your own eye.

We won't be silent about our faith, nor will we sanitize the Gospel to allay your fears. American Christians have not the History of anti-Semitism you would impute to us.

We'll declare the Gospel and still remain Israel's greatest friend, whether you like it or not.


153 posted on 03/05/2004 12:08:31 AM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
the world's Christians, especially those who already continue to put on passion plays each year, in which things are no complete until blood is drawn and replicas of Pilot and the Jews are beaten.

Source, please.

154 posted on 03/05/2004 12:08:34 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
This little row will not put a schism between Jews and Christians. We will get over it. It will feed the hatred of those already predisposed but I don't think that matters much either. Those who walk in darkness can find lots of inspiration in lots of way nowadays.

I might encourage you to look into these things however. There is nothing in the Torah stating that God could not come to us in human form one day and offer himself as a sacrifice. In fact there are many passages in the prophets that suggest he would do exactly that one day.

One does not have to give up his jewishness to accept Christ's gift. I believe everything that a religious Jew believes. I just believe that the Messiah came first in meekness and to give himself. The next time he comes will be different.
155 posted on 03/05/2004 12:08:34 AM PST by mercy
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To: stands2reason
What most academics of New Testament scholarship are pointing out is that Gibson IS NOT FOLLOWING THE GOSPELS, but following largely a 19th century nun's visions of what she says the details were.
156 posted on 03/05/2004 12:08:57 AM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
You're a troll, foldy rol;
You're a troll, foldy rol;
You're a troll, foldy rol;
And you fooled us once, but no more.
157 posted on 03/05/2004 12:09:40 AM PST by drlevy88
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
"Well for starters, New Mexico and Mexico for example. This movie is going worldwide and the Aramaic line in the film that says "The Jews, because they 'killed Christ,' must be pursued and punished for all generations" and which Gibson was convinced by critics not to include in the English translation in the U.S. release of the film might very likely be translated for other countries showings of the film."

REALLY? Have you seen the film? Do you speak Arameic?

Ooooh.. Didn't think so. Just repeating something from one of those Democrat "fever swamp" web sites, no doubt.

Therefore, you have the same credibility as those Aryan-nation types who repeat quotes from the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as authority in order to justifying their anti-semitism.

You are a troll.

You are also an anti-Christian bigot.

You probably voted for the Rapist - twice.

Therefore I will waste no more time with you.

Cordially, Al

158 posted on 03/05/2004 12:09:59 AM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: eddiespaghetti
He apparently agrees with their position on the 2nd Amendment...
159 posted on 03/05/2004 12:10:52 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: nopardons
But all of that was based on church teachings ( the Jews killed Christ! ) and some of the most virulent anti-Semitic times, in European nations, followed Medieval PASSION PLAYS,that were performed during Lent.

Jesus was a Jew, but by the early Middle Ages,that was NEVER mentioned by Christians and certainly NOT by the church hierarchy.

Yes, and this was also before Gutenberg and private ownership of Bibles.


160 posted on 03/05/2004 12:11:19 AM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: mercy
Yeah, well I think Mel and for that matter most RCs have missed it to.

So what is the point?

161 posted on 03/05/2004 12:12:22 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: stands2reason
We're dealing with a US Certified Grade A Troll, here.
162 posted on 03/05/2004 12:12:38 AM PST by drlevy88
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
No, he's the whole problem. This movie is not balanced. You think it is because you are Christian and know the whole story. This movie will not minister to the Jews or any nonchristian. If he had cut the violence in half and gave a halfway decent exposition of the resurection it would have been a good movie. The Gospels tell the whole story and do it in a balanced manner. Because they were God breathed. This movie is twisted.
163 posted on 03/05/2004 12:12:41 AM PST by mercy
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To: claudiustg
I'm a Protestant but do not have the issues with Catholicism so many do here.

It's not for me but I sure don't have any quarrel with them aside from a few side issues like liberation theology.

I felt the Catholic focus on Mother Mary in the movie was a nice addition. It gave a nice human perspective to Jesus and I thought Morganstern was superb.
164 posted on 03/05/2004 12:12:47 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: drlevy88
Good points all.

The only problem, as I see it, is that so many here are ignorant of the history I posted and intolerant of the feelings some Jews ( not the crazy types, like Abe Foxman !)have now, because of the 1,000+ years of overt anti-Semitism they know took place. This is all an emotional reaction, from ALL sides. Intellect is almost nowhere to be found on ANY of these threads on FR, in news papers, or on T.V. and radio.

And no, I haven't seen the film, but I have seen clips from it and I am a Christian.

165 posted on 03/05/2004 12:13:49 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Sabertooth
You are flagellating the present with the horrors of the past, and accusing living Christians of wicked intentions.

Remove the plank from your own eye.

We won't be silent about our faith, nor will we sanitize the Gospel to allay your fears. American Christians have not the History of anti-Semitism you would impute to us.

We'll declare the Gospel and still remain Israel's greatest friend, whether you like it or not.

Wow. (Applause!)

166 posted on 03/05/2004 12:14:40 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: mercy
Earlier in the thread you were wondering if you could continue to defend the movie in the face of your Jewish wife, Jewish friends and Krauthammer's slam.

Now the movie is "twisted".

You made up your mind in the last hour based on what?

167 posted on 03/05/2004 12:15:36 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Sabertooth
You are flagellating the present with the horrors of the past, and accusing living Christians of wicked intentions.

"'Remove the plank from your own eye.

We won't be silent about our faith, nor will we sanitize the Gospel to allay your fears. American Christians have not the History of anti-Semitism you would impute to us.

We'll declare the Gospel and still remain Israel's greatest friend, whether you like it or not.'

Wow. (Applause!)"


*BUMP*!!!!

168 posted on 03/05/2004 12:16:40 AM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: mercy
This movie will not minister to the Jews or any nonchristian

Where did Mel say that was his intention for the movie?

169 posted on 03/05/2004 12:16:46 AM PST by Texasforever (When democrats attack it is called campaigning)
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To: Sabertooth
Great Post!
170 posted on 03/05/2004 12:16:56 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: mercy
If he had cut the violence in half and gave a halfway decent exposition of the resurection it would have been a good movie.

Well the resurrection wasn't played up as much as Protestants commonly do, but it was there. The shroud collapses and Jesus walks out of the tomb, with his visible wounds GONE. What part of "risen again" isn't clear???

171 posted on 03/05/2004 12:17:23 AM PST by drlevy88
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To: mercy
There have been other very good movies made about Christ ... including well done scenes of the crucifiction. The Jews were not outraged. Why are they so hurt now? I think good christians need to ask themselves this question.

I watched both "The Greatest Story Ever Told" (1965) and "Ben Hur" (1957) since seeing "The Passion." The reason why the Jews didn't go off on these films is because both portray the ROMANS as the ones who really wanted to kill Jesus, not so much the Jews. In Ben Hur, the Jewish involvement in Christ's death is completely left out.

But the gosples never say a word about the Romans wanting to kill Jesus for any reason. The myths about the Romans being mad at Jesus because he was inciting rebellion is pure Hollywood left-liberal myth; no such accounts are reported in the gospels, nor in any other historical document that exists from those times.

All four gospels are quite clear that the Sanhedrin was out to get Jesus, and only the Sanhedrin. (Though there are accounts of other lay Jews wanting to kill him because of alleged blasphemy....)

Mel Gibson wanted his movie to be true to the gospel accounts, as well as the stations of the cross. Very little of the "visions" of that silly nun are given credence, though one that was a direct result of her vision was Mary wiping up the blood with towels given to her by Pilate's wife.

All four gospel accounts clearly portray the Sanhedrin as the ones who wanted Jesus dead, and they were the ones who manipulated Pilate into doing the deed for them.

The reason many Jews are mad at this particular version of the Passion, is because this is the first "popular" movie version of that event that really tried to stay as true to the gospel accounts as possible. Those accounts all portray the Sanhedrin in a bad light.

Those Jews who are deeply offended by this movie are only identifying with the Sanhedrin, to the exclusion of all the other Jewish characters portrayed in this film, like Mary, Jesus, the apostles, etc. All of whom were just as Jewish as the Sanhedrin, but differed with them on some key theological (if not political) points.

It should be also be noted that according to history, Ciaphas, the high priest, was appointed by the Romans, as were ALL high priests during the Roman occupation.

172 posted on 03/05/2004 12:18:08 AM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: stands2reason
see my #63
173 posted on 03/05/2004 12:18:43 AM PST by mercy
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To: mercy
This movie will not minister to the Jews or any nonchristian. If he had cut the violence in half and gave a halfway decent exposition of the resurection it would have been a good movie.

What makes you think being flogged and crucified wasn't violent? Which Jews and non-Christians are unaware that Christians believe Christ was resurrected, and did not understand the final scene in the film when the burial cloth was empty, and Jesus was seen alive?

You don't even make sense. I think you're just being critical for sport.

174 posted on 03/05/2004 12:18:44 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: Sabertooth
Which doesn't matter ( Gutenberg and his press ), because most people, including kings, could not read.
175 posted on 03/05/2004 12:18:54 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Sabertooth
But, those "feelings " never really left off, later on, when people could read and had their own bibles. It simmered below the surface.
176 posted on 03/05/2004 12:20:47 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
This movie is going worldwide and the Aramaic line in the film that says "The Jews, because they 'killed Christ,' must be pursued and punished for all generations" and which Gibson was convinced by critics not to include in the English translation in the U.S. release of the film might very likely be translated for other countries showings of the film.

"The Jews, because they 'killed Christ,' must be pursued and punished for all generations"

I have never seen that line mentioned in the Bible. I think you just made it up. Besides, what makes you think that the film will be translated from the Aramaic instead of from the English? You think every country has loads of Aramaic translators just waiting for a job to come their way?

And another question. Have you seen the film?

177 posted on 03/05/2004 12:20:53 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
"The Jews, because they 'killed Christ,' must be pursued and punished for all generations"

That's quite a different translation you have there for "His blood be upon us and our children". You're implying there was a directive to kill Jews, and there never was. Believe me, we're very familiar with the line that was cut. It doesn't resemble your fiction in the slightest.

Anyway, regarding the "His blood be upon us" line-- what makes you think that scene is still in the film in any form? You think he just erased the subtitles and left the audio in? Not to mention the visual?

Makes no sense. This was not a cheap production and there would be no motive to edit the thing cheaply.

Anyway, why wouldn't they just translate the English subtitles? How many people in the world can translate Aramaic, vs. how many able to translate English?

178 posted on 03/05/2004 12:21:32 AM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: mercy
This movie will not minister to the Jews or any nonchristian. If he had cut the violence in half and gave a halfway decent exposition of the resurection it would have been a good movie. The Gospels tell the whole story and do it in a balanced manner. Because they were God breathed. This movie is twisted.

Finance your own movie, or rent "Jesus of Nazareth" by Francisco Zeffirelli, which is quite good.

"The Passion of the Christ" isn't twisted, it's a dramatic retelling of that last twelve hours of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, based primarily on the Gospels and the Book of Isaiah. It's a violent story.

Where the script deviates from the Scriptures, it doesn't contradict them.

You are stretching hard to find something wrong with this movie.


179 posted on 03/05/2004 12:24:19 AM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
I'm not impressed. Christians have been persecuted as well. Right now hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered and enslaved in Sudan. Christians are persecuted in Pakistan, in India. None of this is unusual among peoples of different religions. Why do you imagine Jews are exceptional? Bloody Mary persecuted Protestants; Elizabeth forced Catholics to convert and hounded and executed priests; Lutheran princes slaughtered 130,000 Catholic peasants; rationalists of the French Revolution slaughtered 300,000 Catholics in one region of France alone; Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throats for centuries in Ireland; Sunnis hate Shiites and vice versa. So what makes you think the Jews were in any way exceptional? Why must Jews make everything--even a film celebrating Christian redemption--be about themselves? And why do Jews like Krauthammer dare to slander Christianity by linking normal historic frictions between peoples of differening faiths to Hitler's demonic psychopathic genocide? That is the true libel, not Gibson's innocent film.
180 posted on 03/05/2004 12:24:34 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: wardaddy
---I'm a Protestant but do not have the issues with Catholicism so many do here.---

Well the LCMS does not always play well with others, but I do see where the February issue of "The Witness" has an article favoring the movie for outreach.
181 posted on 03/05/2004 12:24:41 AM PST by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)
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To: Ronzo
Excellent synopsis...shame some can't see it.
182 posted on 03/05/2004 12:24:53 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Al Simmons
If paranoia is remembering my sister-in-law whom I never met, a toddler of two and a half years old, killed for only one reason, along with her grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins - that the biggest and longest standing hatred - hatred of Jews for killing Christ - was still going strong in this century, then, yes, you can call me paranoid. If paranoia is watching the Islamic terrorists adopting Christian blood libels against Jews as their own is paranoia, then I'm indeed paranoid. If I'm outraged that Jews would be accused by the Arab world of perpetrating 9/11 and that people would actually believe it, then I'm paranoid. If it frightens me to see a minister put a sign up on his lawn saying Jews killed Christ after he saw the movie, then I am paranoid. If I am sick of seeing synagogues and Jewish community centers and their visitors fire-bombed in the U.S., Great Britain, Russia, the Ukraine, Turkey, France, and Argentina, than, yes, I'm paranoid. Most would say I'm just paying attention.
183 posted on 03/05/2004 12:25:04 AM PST by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: wardaddy
I had previously defended it in that I refused to see it as anti-semetic. I have atacked the movie repeadedly in many posts and some on this thread can bear witness to that.

Now Krauthammer has gotten to me. I went in and admitted this to my wife and took a few more spoonfuls of crow from her.

I don't think it is 'Christian' to be blatant and reproachful about this movie to our Jewish brethren. Christ was meek. A bruised read would he not break nor a smoldering wick snuff out. Being pushy about our faith is not spreading the Gospel.

184 posted on 03/05/2004 12:26:04 AM PST by mercy
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To: claudiustg
I have nothing but respect for LCMS....is that not the conservative Lutheran branch?
185 posted on 03/05/2004 12:26:39 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: Ronzo
But the gosples never say a word about the Romans wanting to kill Jesus for any reason. The myths about the Romans being mad at Jesus because he was inciting rebellion is pure Hollywood left-liberal myth; no such accounts are reported in the gospels, nor in any other historical document that exists from those times.

It's logical that Pilate and a lot of other Romans would have some reason to fear Jesus, because of the Jewish hopes of a political Messiah that He raised. That would mean an uprising which would be a major headache for the Romans. But it was the Sanhedrin who (in earthly view) fed Him into this buzzsaw.

186 posted on 03/05/2004 12:26:39 AM PST by drlevy88
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To: Sabertooth
I saw the movie tonight and had a little different take on it than many I have read here. Most people seem to be saying that they came out with a new understanding of what Jesus sacrificed for them.

I have to be honest (and please feel free to correct me if I seem to be straying), I saw the bloodshed and thought to myself, "I'm not that bad. That isn't all my fault." Some was, of course. I am a sinner. But Jesus died for our collective sins. What struck me was that Jesus died not only for me, but he died for the soldiers who spit on him. He died for people he knew would reject him. He died for people he knew would actively further the cause of evil in this world.

He did it out of love. How much easier it is to die for people like us (here on this thread)! We are sincere, we believe, we love God and try to follow the path he has laid for us. It says much more about God's love for humanity that he died for murderers, rapists and traitors too.

This is why I must love and forgive my fellow man. I have a perfect example set before me. I must pray for them too. God doesn't want any to be lost. I hurt him by not loving those that he adores.

Is the message, "I am worthless, sinning scum and Jesus chose to be tortured to save me."? Is that a loving message? It does demonstrate love, Jesus did CHOOSE to die for me. But think about saying this to your children. "Gosh honey, you're awful and beastly and worthless but I love you anyway." I have a hard time with that. It's part of it, certainly. But is it the central message?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I came out of this movie not focused on what Jesus did for me. But what Jesus did for everyone. I have a very hard time being that selfless (or even close). Maybe that is why it was striking for me.

187 posted on 03/05/2004 12:27:33 AM PST by Dianna
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To: mercy
"They have never complained like this before. Try to take a step or two in their mocasins. It's the way that Gibson made this movie they disagree with. I think it very telling how you all toss Krauthammer to the wolves when he was just yesterday one of your best friends."

You are totally correct. I am beginning to think that whether or not the movie is antisemitic some of its defenders might be. And the anger at those who don't like the movie is starting to boil down to bashing and trashing people for not being Christian or not understanding the gospel. What good does that accomplish? None. I am not at all impressed with the fruits this movie has produced so far.

188 posted on 03/05/2004 12:28:20 AM PST by DestroytheDemocrats
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To: churchillbuff
Krauthammer didn't see the same movie I saw. Maybe that's because, as Dennis Prager wrote last October, Jews and Christians are Watching Different Films. But still, Krauthammer has really gone out of his way to see malevolent artistic choices in Gibson's work where I think none exist.
189 posted on 03/05/2004 12:28:38 AM PST by beckett
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To: drlevy88
ooh yer gonna get flamed

I got flamed from the on high (as far as Freerepublic goes)...Yer post made me laugh...But the conceivable flaming and resultant removal of my statement does not negate the possibility that 6,000,000 may be an inflated number (1 is too many). To blame Christians for Hitler's crimes is much more incindiary than anything I might have said.

The Jewish venom at the Christian doctrine only bears witness to the darkness within which they walk by rejecting GOD.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24 -- "Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense. But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God."

So, we find unfortunate place we find Krauthammer, and modern liberalism for that matter.

190 posted on 03/05/2004 12:28:40 AM PST by Outraged
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To: Outraged
flaming and resultant removal of my statement does not negate the possibility that 6,000,000 may be an inflated number (1 is too many).

Why did you post it again if it was removed once?

191 posted on 03/05/2004 12:30:08 AM PST by Texasforever (When democrats attack it is called campaigning)
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To: ultima ratio
A qualified BTTT.

I'm partially Huguenot descended...lol
192 posted on 03/05/2004 12:30:22 AM PST by wardaddy (A man better believe in something or he'll fall for anything.)
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To: hellinahandcart
Anyway, why wouldn't they just translate the English subtitles? How many people in the world can translate Aramaic, vs. how many able to translate English?

Safire came up with that idiotic talking point, and Passionbashers have been running with it. Every tiny country aparently has its own Aramaic translators just itching to take on "the Passion", as it will be the only job they will ever have in their lifetimes.

193 posted on 03/05/2004 12:32:02 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
****What makes you think being flogged and crucified wasn't violent?****

Putting words in my mouth does not make me see your side of things.

How much trouble would it have been for Mel to make it clear that it was only the corrupt Roman controlled San Hedrin under a corrupt Roman apponted king along with a juiced up rent a mob (yes that's in the Gospels) that was responsible for the whole deal? He could have shown that the majority of the Jews loved Jesus of Nazareth.

He did not.

He is suspect and Krauthammer is right.
194 posted on 03/05/2004 12:32:40 AM PST by mercy
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To: Texasforever
You are going to have to do better than that, like remove the quoted excerpt from my statement...The ball is still in play if you look at the poster's post I responded to.

Don't you have anything better to do?

195 posted on 03/05/2004 12:32:55 AM PST by Outraged
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
"If paranoia is remembering my sister-in-law whom I never met, a toddler of two and a half years old, killed for only one reason, along with her grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins - that the biggest and longest standing hatred - hatred of Jews for killing Christ - was still going strong in this century, then, yes, you can call me paranoid. If paranoia is watching the Islamic terrorists adopting Christian blood libels against Jews as their own is paranoia, then I'm indeed paranoid. If I'm outraged that Jews would be accused by the Arab world of perpetrating 9/11 and that people would actually believe it, then I'm paranoid. If it frightens me to see a minister put a sign up on his lawn saying Jews killed Christ after he saw the movie, then I am paranoid. If I am sick of seeing synagogues and Jewish community centers and their visitors fire-bombed in the U.S., Great Britain, Russia, the Ukraine, Turkey, France, and Argentina, than, yes, I'm paranoid. Most would say I'm just paying attention."

The way you are heaping everyone together, it is obvious that you have a real tough time telling your friends from your enemies.
196 posted on 03/05/2004 12:33:19 AM PST by Al Simmons (Proud BushBot since '94!)
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To: Outraged
"The Jewish venom at the Christian doctrine only bears witness to the darkness within which they walk by rejecting GOD."

This post ought to be removed.

197 posted on 03/05/2004 12:34:20 AM PST by DestroytheDemocrats
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To: Outraged
What I've seen is that the Jewish death toll could have actually been worse. I suppose a UFO could have spirited these missing Jews off to Mars, but Occam's Razor suggests we should look to Hitler's hordes first.
198 posted on 03/05/2004 12:34:31 AM PST by drlevy88
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To: Outraged
Sure but I like playing with mice.
199 posted on 03/05/2004 12:34:40 AM PST by Texasforever (When democrats attack it is called campaigning)
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To: Sabertooth
Not stretching even a little bit. See my # 194.
200 posted on 03/05/2004 12:35:07 AM PST by mercy
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