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Offshoring and Lowered Expectations
Computerworld ^ | March 8, 2004 | Dan Gillmor

Posted on 03/08/2004 3:14:41 PM PST by Mini-14

MARCH 08, 2004 - One of the best things about living and working in Silicon Valley is the quality of the people. I'm frequently the least-knowledgeable person in the

room, and probably the stupidest. I get to learn from the ultrasmart and creative folks I meet.

So why do I have an uneasy feeling these days about the place, even as an economic recovery for the technology industry starts to gather steam?

One factor abounds with irony. A few years ago, I wondered if the Valley was sowing the seeds of its demise by creating the communications and collaboration tools that would make it much less necessary to be there in a physical sense. The near-unanimous consensus at the time among the top people in the field was that the Valley had nothing to worry about.

I never entirely bought their faith, though the Valley has repeatedly shown an ability to rebound to new heights after deep economic downturns. The recent evidence, notably the surge of offshoring, makes me ask again -- about the Valley and the entire nation.

And I wonder if something is genuinely different now.

Intel CEO Craig Barrett put his finger on it a few weeks ago when he stopped by my newspaper for a long chat with some reporters and editors. What's new this time, he told us in a persuasive way, is the nature of the global workforce.

For the first time in human history, Barrett said, a truly gigantic pool of well-educated, technically adept and eager-to-please labor is being created. This pool of talent, which will include hundreds of millions of people in China and India (many of whom speak English fluently), has another characteristic: a willingness to work for a fraction of what Americans expect.

This is not because they like living poorly. It's because local conditions and currency exchange rates make what would seem like a pauper's salary here a highly attractive one there.

The U.S. largely came to grips with a similar crisis in low-end manufacturing. We moved up the value chain as a society, painful as this was for the less-educated, hardworking people who lost middle-class jobs and had to settle for lower-paid service employment.

How high can we move on the value chain now?

I travel widely. One thing I know for sure is that Silicon Valley and the U.S. have no monopoly on brains or energy. We do have an advantage in promoting a culture of risk, of entrepreneurialism. But other places are beginning to adopt even that value, too.

The spectacle of politicians promoting trade wars in the name of stemming job losses is disturbing, if understandable. I wish they'd devote that energy to telling the harder truth: that the U.S. will need to buckle down in unprecedented ways, with vast new investments in education and infrastructure, plus a new commitment to the best aspects of entrepreneurialism.

We may be facing big trouble in the near term, no matter what we do. That's the kind of news few politicians dare deliver.

Barrett, running for no office, offered a hard truth. As he gave his litany of why conditions truly are different this time, we asked if this suggested a generation of lowered expectations in the U.S. "It's tough to come to another conclusion than that," he replied.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: employment; h1b; l1; offshore; outsourcing; trade; unemployment
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1 posted on 03/08/2004 3:14:42 PM PST by Mini-14
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To: Mini-14
The American people will not work for third world wages. It will either be protectionism or extreme socialism before that happens. Our corporate chieftains have really over estimated themselves here and have moved to quickly. It is easy emough to stop it. Outsourcing can be stopped with a pen stroke.

Move farther up the value chain? they are kidding themselves. Where would that be? CEO of Intel? The rationalization of labor across the world means the end of western civilization.

And we did not "recover" from the loss of manufacturing. That is one of the reasons we are so in debt. Wealth creation lies in manufacturing and engineering. If we do not lead here we are doomed to follow.

This business of finding a new "restructuring" is a bunk. We did not move our factories oversea and then hunt around for a replacement called the "high tech " to replace it. High tech took decades to come into fruition.

I think they underestimate Americans or they have moved too fast. We will not settle for third world status and we are not about to go bavk to the middle ages.

2 posted on 03/08/2004 3:30:51 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: Mini-14; A. Pole
As he gave his litany of why conditions truly are different this time, we asked if this suggested a generation of lowered expectations in the U.S. "It's tough to come to another conclusion than that," he replied.

But I will contemplate issues on Reviera in my yacht while little peoples suffer....er adjust.

3 posted on 03/08/2004 3:32:43 PM PST by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: Mini-14
Barrett, running for no office, offered a hard truth. As he gave his litany of why conditions truly are different this time, we asked if this suggested a generation of lowered expectations in the U.S. "It's tough to come to another conclusion than that," he replied. Well r. barret might be in for some other conclusions, such as: a 95 % income tax on his @ss, or outsourcing tech jobs being made an act of treason, or the Senate going after intel. All of which will happen if the Rats take back the government, which they will if this is not address by the GOP.

And why will more education solve the problem?

4 posted on 03/08/2004 3:36:58 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: RussianConservative
They will be shot on the street first. The arrogance of these people, they think that they are above the nation state. They in fact have not thought it through. If they will haul Bill Gates in front of congress over a browser or take apart something like AT&T can you imagine what they will do to these people. It will make the new deal look like a temporary measure.

To sit there and tell the American people that they must compete with a billion Chinese in their own country. What unbelievable arrogance

5 posted on 03/08/2004 3:43:02 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: harpseal
we asked if this suggested a generation of lowered expectations in the U.S. "It's tough to come to another conclusion than that," he replied.
6 posted on 03/08/2004 3:44:05 PM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: CasearianDaoist
The writing is on the wall. I travel all over Asia. The average income in Malaysia for a middle management executive is 1200 USD a month. The stock market recovery, is an illusion. If you have a ton of equity in your home, buy a fast food franchise.
7 posted on 03/08/2004 3:45:11 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: Mini-14
I know it sucks, but there is both precedent for and no escape from what is happening. Since the development of sedentary agriculture to now, every so many centuries, there is a quantum shift in how the world works. Sedentary agriculture, Roman legions, the serf system, the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, mass production, steam power, electric power, nuclear power, computers, the internet, a 24 hour international market. At each turn, millions scrambled to survive or die as the very fabric of society was pulled out from under them.

Today the IT revolution has ended forever every and all knowledge-based job located in a city near you. Highly qualified radiologists in India are performing diagnosis for US hospitals online for $ 25/hour -- 5% of what their US doctor counterparts are getting. You call AMEX and are connected to an Indian in Bangalore who speaks with an unintelligable accent, driving you into a rage and losing you as an AMEX customer (ok; all outsourcing dorsn't work, but for $ 7/hour it's gonna take a lot of pissed-off Americans to replace this Indian with an American for $ 35/hr, including benefits.

You can't turn back time. The Dems demand that we do so. Let them explain how.

8 posted on 03/08/2004 3:46:32 PM PST by pabianice
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To: sarcasm
"we asked if this suggested a generation of lowered expectations in the U.S. "It's tough to come to another conclusion than that," he replied."

But he has already made his money:)
9 posted on 03/08/2004 3:46:56 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: Mini-14
All along this has been my fear. The ride is over. After WW II we were the only industrialized country with our infrastructure more or less intact. Then during the Cold War most of the world was trying that failed experiment called "socialism" and we ate them for lunch. The US relative to rest of the world had a tremendous advantage precisely because of our economic freedom. Well, now the rest of the world is slowly starting to "get it." Combined with our dumbed-down education system, the rest of the world, especially Asia, is quickly catching up.
10 posted on 03/08/2004 3:51:23 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator
Correct!!
11 posted on 03/08/2004 3:53:34 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: international american
As I said, stopping it just takes a penstroke. The voter will make it illegal, and pop a hefty tariff on your Malaysian buddies, and if that does not work than sooner or later they will demand a bomb be dropped on them. It amazes me that people think that the American people will allow this. We will go right back to the 1930s with the Dems in charge. It is madness to think that the American Voter will allow this. The globalist elites are in for some surprises. They in act may get wiped from the stage.

Globalism leads to war or totalitarinaism, or both. They have moved too quickly.

12 posted on 03/08/2004 3:56:31 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: international american
rank name company total comp ($thou) 5 yr comp ($thou) mkt value - shares owned ($mil) age efficiency grade
25 Craig R Barrett Intel 19,386   190,222   55.4   63 --

13 posted on 03/08/2004 3:58:03 PM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: international american
"If you have a ton of equity in your home, buy a fast food franchise."

LOL,funny but true....debt up to our asses(not me,but many others I know)...not a good thing.

14 posted on 03/08/2004 3:59:40 PM PST by oust the louse
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To: CasearianDaoist
My Malaysian buddies actually are helping to create jobs in America. I bring business franchises to America, and in a very small way, am bringing dollars back to America. No big deal, really, but every little bit helps.
15 posted on 03/08/2004 3:59:52 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: Mini-14
For the first time in human history, Barrett said, a truly gigantic pool of well-educated, technically adept and eager-to-please labor is being created.

Is he implying that American workers have an attitude problem? lol

16 posted on 03/08/2004 4:01:15 PM PST by vikingchick
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To: Mini-14
The spectacle of politicians promoting trade wars in the name of stemming job losses is disturbing, if understandable. I wish they'd devote that energy to telling the harder truth: that the U.S. will need to buckle down in unprecedented ways, with vast new investments in education and infrastructure, plus a new commitment to the best aspects of entrepreneurialism.

Unless we cut taxes, we will lose.

Unless we cut the cost of regulations, we will lose.

Unless we fire corrupt sandbagging public sector employees we will lose.

We have a lot of advantages over China and India. If we cut down our disadvanatges, our advantages will keep us ahead.

More "investment" in government programs is exactly the wrong thing.

17 posted on 03/08/2004 4:04:28 PM PST by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending)
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To: vikingchick
No, he is saying that they will work for 1/6 of our salaries. This is a profound problem!!
18 posted on 03/08/2004 4:04:29 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: CasearianDaoist
Another good post that lays it all out. We can't stop this lousy globalization but it's revolting how we've rushed into accelerate the trend for the last 20 years. And yes, blue collars were the first to be shit on via outsourcing. No one cared about them and those exported jobs lead to the humongous trade deficits of today.

But who cares because DEFICITS DON'T MATTER!!! (/sarc)
19 posted on 03/08/2004 4:05:04 PM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: international american
I wonder what would happen if all the foreign-owned firms doing business in the US, suddenly did the same thing that the protectionists want our government to do? I guarantee it wouldn't be pretty.
20 posted on 03/08/2004 4:07:02 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: eno_
"Unless we cut taxes, we will lose.

Unless we cut the cost of regulations, we will lose.

Unless we fire corrupt sandbagging public sector employees we will lose. "


All correct................who is gonna do it??

21 posted on 03/08/2004 4:08:36 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: pabianice
You can't turn back time. The Dems demand that we do so. Let them explain how....

You believe in the myth of the rational voter. Democrats are already demagoguing outsourcing and have their own harebrained solutions to stop it. Democrats don't have to provide viable solutions. They just have to hammer it home how much "they feel" for busted down workers. Blue collar and white collar

22 posted on 03/08/2004 4:10:06 PM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: dfwgator
We are allowing foreign companies to get away with murder, vis a vis fair trade laws. We are being played for suckers.

Our regulations are obsene! Our taxes are too high. Then you got OSHA, Shyster lawyers, et al....we are in trouble!
23 posted on 03/08/2004 4:12:14 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: dennisw
"Democrats don't have to provide viable solutions. They just have to hammer it home how much "they feel" for busted down workers. Blue collar and white collar"

Yep, and if it works, we will have a doctrinaire Marxist for a President. Happy days:)

24 posted on 03/08/2004 4:18:51 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: pabianice
Sure you can stop it. It is just a creation of multi nationals. You can shut down multinationals - you do not even have to nationalize them, just tax them to death and make tech trasfers illegal (as most tech transfers were up until a few years ago.) ANd if you do not think that the voters will not do this then you are crazy. What we are talking about here is more devastating that the great depression,and in the age of thermo nuclear war much more deadly.

What are you taking about? There is nothing inevitable about it. Make outsourcing illegal and focus on making great technology while we still have the lead. If the EU wants to outsource, let them ruin themselves. But they won't. If we do it theywill follow. Outsourcing will come to be seen for what it is: suicide for the West. If not we will place a tariff on them too. India and China do not have the research infrastructure we have right now. Let us not help them get it. It is only inevitable if we lose our science and technology edge. We had the internet decades ago, this is a problem created by free trade elitists, it can be unmade. If we pulled out of the WTO, and stop building up the Chinese and the Indians the problem would just go away. At worst we could have a teired economic order.

It is ridiculous to imagine that there is "no escape." What a strange sentiment, it is merely a matter of trade policy, national security strategy, and science and tech nology strategy. That and voting the globalists out of power. What do you think it is, a force of nature? An act of God? And do not think the voter will not act in four years or so if this keeps up. Can they take our votes away that quickly? And if they do vote against outsourcing you can say bye bye to the GOP if that happens, and I mean bye bye for another 70 years. They will unionize every job in the country.

25 posted on 03/08/2004 4:20:04 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: CasearianDaoist
And we did not "recover" from the loss of manufacturing. That is one of the reasons we are so in debt.

And one of the main reasons for the permanent welfare class. As we move up the 'value chain. that class, consisting of those who cannot acquire higher skills and for whom there is no useful employment left, will continue to grow. Eventually, it will destroy all but the very top of the 'value chain' and result in a society much like that which we see in Mexico today.

26 posted on 03/08/2004 4:23:26 PM PST by templar
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To: CasearianDaoist
"Outsourcing will come to be seen for what it is: suicide for the West."

How many times have I posted here saying pretty much the same thing? Asia is laughing at us. India is hosing us.....Americans are too insulated; they don't travel enough. And our educational system has been taken over by globalist scum!

Rant done, and you are correct on all points.
27 posted on 03/08/2004 4:26:10 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: templar
BINGO!!
28 posted on 03/08/2004 4:29:02 PM PST by international american (Tagline!!)
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To: eno_
Add also - Unless we gut the multi-million dallar salaries for corp. CEOs and the board members and all their buddies on the typical Mahogony Row of any major US business.

It might help to bring back 8-track tapes.

29 posted on 03/08/2004 4:30:31 PM PST by citizen (Write-in Tom Tancredo President 2004!)
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To: international american
I bring business franchises to America, and in a very small way, am bringing dollars back to America.

If I understand your statement correectly, you assist in transferring ownership of American business and assets to foreigners?

30 posted on 03/08/2004 4:33:46 PM PST by templar
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To: Mini-14
I have stopped feeling sorry for displaced s/w developers. These folks are generally intelligent and educated. They've probably noticed the h1-b/l1 encroachments coming for years (outsourcing shouldn't be a suprise). Although denial is understandable. Anyway...

1. The barriers to entry for developing a software product have got to be the lowest around - all ya need are a couple of guys, a living room (that's not gonna be foreclosed on for a couple of months), some computers (which everyone already has at least a couple of), and the s/w tools (which someone should have pirated from the company before they were let go).
2. Develop a product.
3. Sell it.

Being a slave to a corporation for a job is no way to go through life. F it - create your own job. Ok, this is a "sea change", a "paradigm shift", whatever. Goes against everything we were taught in public schools. I hope at some of them will see this as the opportunity it is. Word.

31 posted on 03/08/2004 4:35:22 PM PST by searchandrecovery (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: CasearianDaoist
Yet almost no response from West but continued comma of consumption.
32 posted on 03/08/2004 4:37:23 PM PST by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: dennisw
Sure we can stop. But it will stop itself. It is an unnatural condition. And to compare it to the invention of agriculture is silly, agriculture took millennia to establish. You cannot just turn a whole citizenry in the most advance country in history in to peasants in the course of one half of a generation! The elites tend to believe their Harvard sociologists all too much. It is a rejection of every precept of Modern Western Liberal civilization (liberal in the 19th century sense of the word.) Wait until you have internal "terrorism" from 200 million people. Wait until you have a protest march on the capital that is in the tens of millions.

How are you going to man your armies with, conscripts> (and brother, will you need armys.) These people are not geniuses, just a cosseted management class. They can be outfought. They have over reached, IMHO. THey are living in a dream world. One city nuked in asia and it all comes tumbling down.

33 posted on 03/08/2004 4:37:54 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: Mini-14
I have read some about John D. Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan and I believe they have been unfairly villified. J. P. Morgan said what is good for General Motors is good for the country. Of course he said that when multinational companies were the exception not the rule. It may be what is good for Toyota is good for the country after all, we have had that company reinvest its capital in very productive plants in this country, while at the same time Ford and General Motors seem to be putting capital to work outside our borders and at the same time exporting jobs that could pay for the cars that were being produced. It was Henry Ford after all who saw his workers as customers for his products. Corporate America today seems to have no such vision and the economic nationalism expressed by Morgan is viewed as something for antiquity.
34 posted on 03/08/2004 4:38:02 PM PST by Biblebelter
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To: pabianice; A. Pole
You forget one:

I know it sucks, but there is both precedent for and no escape from what is happening. Since the development of sedentary agriculture to now, every so many centuries, there is a quantum shift in how the world works. Sedentary agriculture, Roman legions, the serf system, the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, mass production, steam power, electric power, nuclear power, computers, the internet, a 24 hour international market. Chinese slave power...and it will defeat US and West....oh but that is powered by West Greed Power.

35 posted on 03/08/2004 4:39:54 PM PST by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: CasearianDaoist
It is ridiculous to imagine that there is "no escape." What a strange sentiment,...

I think that the 'no escape' statement is more an attitude from the elites end of things. It has to do with the elites believing that the world is entirely under their control and at their mercy and no escape will be allowed. They believe they will get what they want and no one, no nation, can stop them. They may well be right.

36 posted on 03/08/2004 4:44:35 PM PST by templar
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To: templar
Eventually, it will destroy all but the very top of the 'value chain' and result in a society much like that which we see in Mexico today.

No, it will be like the societies that were in Europe 500 to 600 years ago.

37 posted on 03/08/2004 4:51:51 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: templar
Eventually, it will destroy all but the very top of the 'value chain' and result in a society much like that which we see in Mexico today.

A return to serfdom?

38 posted on 03/08/2004 4:56:15 PM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: CasearianDaoist
Wealth creation lies in manufacturing and engineering. If we do not lead here we are doomed to follow.

200 years ago, wealth creation was clearing a plot of land.
100 years ago, wealth creation was building a factory.
20 years ago, wealth creation was designing a chip.
10 years ago, wealth creation was creating software.

All of this has led us to the situation where food, manufactured products, processing power, and software are, roughly speaking, free -- created for us with historically unimaginable quality by highly efficient equipment (including robots) or relatively inexpensive foreigners.

Yes, we have to figure out how to earn the relatively little money needed nowadays to live reasonably well, but more important the market needs to figure out the meaning of wealth for the next generation.

The answer lies somewhere in Maslow's hierarchy.

39 posted on 03/08/2004 4:56:19 PM PST by AZLiberty (Capitalism presumes we possess a traditional endowment of morals -- F. A. Hayek)
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To: Mini-14
We moved up the value chain as a society, painful as this was for the less-educated, hardworking people who lost middle-class jobs and had to settle for lower-paid service employment.

But what about their "standard of living"? After all they can get a VCR for about 50 bucks, a popcorn maker for 15, or a microwave for 50, rent a multi-million dollar movie for 2...what more do they want?...How much better could life be? < /sarcasm >

40 posted on 03/08/2004 4:56:44 PM PST by lewislynn (The successful globalist employee will be the best educated, working for the lowest possible wage.)
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To: citizen
Add up the total of all CEO salaries.

Now reduce them to zero.

How much impact would that be compared with, say, cutting the TSA budget for wanding grandma at the aurport by 10%?

Government is the multi-trillion dollar elephant in the room. You could pay 1000 A-Rods or 1000 Tyco CEOs with what the government pisses down the toilet before lunch every day.

Sure, Tyco and Worldcom and Martha Stewart are insulting. But the big fat target is where our tax dollars are chewed up.
41 posted on 03/08/2004 4:57:55 PM PST by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending)
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To: templar
They believe they will get what they want and no one, no nation, can stop them. They may well be right.

They will not get it. They - or their children - will be shot in the street. If not by an american partisan then by a Chinese soldier.

I really think one of the main drivers here is that baby boomers are now in senior management. We are talking about perhaps the most selfish and foolish generation is world history, certianly the in American history (I am a boomer BTW.) They are in for a shock or two when they find out that 1) The National state is not just an abstraction, and 2) there is more to the human than brute appetite. What a bunch of arrogant, blind fools.

42 posted on 03/08/2004 4:59:56 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: CasearianDaoist
They [Dims] will unionize every job in the country.

That vision could be a plus if the 'offsourcing' debate could be shaped correctly:

1) Make Main Street America aware of US corporations love for outsourcing/offshoring Amreican jobs and the ruinous result for many families. If this is done then the...
2) Republicans take the lead with proposals [less onerous regs & taxes, tort reform, specilized 'trade school' type schools for many needed skills (forget the liberal arts degree), STOP transfering technology overseas, help me with more] to allow American corporations to remain competitive without resorting to offsourcing.
3) Make the political point you correctly made: The Dims answer is protectionism & unionize all American jobs, thereby rendering us utterly helpless VS the world labor market.

We'd have to survive the 04 elections and then have a go at such a course of action for the 06 & 08 elections.

43 posted on 03/08/2004 5:00:50 PM PST by citizen (Write-in Tom Tancredo President 2004!)
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To: CasearianDaoist
Cutting off India and China isn't feasible without cooperation from the rest of the G-7. The Europeans and Japanese have plenty of advanced technology and capital.
44 posted on 03/08/2004 5:02:43 PM PST by Filibuster_60
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To: AZLiberty
200 years ago, wealth creation was clearing a plot of land...
Your poem is misleading - wealth has been created 200 years ago, and has been created today, in a plehora of industries and sectors, not just the 4 you mention.

...but more important the market needs to figure out the meaning of wealth for the next generation.
No, not wealth (I think we all know what that is) - how to create wealth. How to add value. What people want and will pay for. Hint - food is a good example.

45 posted on 03/08/2004 5:07:14 PM PST by searchandrecovery (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: CasearianDaoist
You know what the real problem is? The "lemming" phenonmenon: most people (no matter what race, ethnicity, religion) anywhere simply don't have the mental flexibility to see beyond their immediate situation. Even if what you say is true, most Americans haven't quite grasped there's a corporatist conspiracy to equalize the world and render nation-states obsolete. Too many Americans are still under the illusion that voting for Bush is substantially different from voting for Kerry - we see evidence of that right here on FR with its legion of Bushbots. Our electoral system simply doesn't allow for third-party challenges. We're reduced to voting for the lesser of 2 evils election after election. It's no longer a question of what direction we move in - it's how fast we move down that path.
46 posted on 03/08/2004 5:08:57 PM PST by Filibuster_60
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To: AZLiberty
With all due respect, what you say is absolute nonsense.

A country that does not grow its own food can not be free. A country that cannot make its own goods and services cannot be free. A country that cannot create its own science and technology cannot be free.

And none of the things you have mentioned are "free," roughly or other wise-they are quite dear. What an absurd thing to say. Economies have three layers: Agriculture and commodities, manufacture and lastly services (of wich technology is a part.) Wealth is about creating value. Trade is about moving value around. We have not redefined wealth creation with each generation, we have merely made more efficient the different sectors. You cannot eat a computer chip. And with outsourcing you are not creating a new model for wealth, you are just strip mining the middle class in this country.It is trade, not wealth creation. When it is gone there will be nothing here, and beleive me these american companies will not get this vast Chinese market they are talking about. The Chinese will not allow it.

47 posted on 03/08/2004 5:14:18 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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To: AZLiberty
Yes, we have to figure out how to earn the relatively little money needed nowadays to live reasonably well

Reducing tax and regulatory costs would go a looong way to putting a comfortable life within more people's reach.

48 posted on 03/08/2004 5:17:37 PM PST by eno_ (Freedom Lite - it's almost worth defending)
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To: CasearianDaoist
...these american companies will not get this vast Chinese market they are talking about.
Maybe, maybe not. But U.S. companies currently sell products in India.

At some point China will realize it can't produce everything.

49 posted on 03/08/2004 5:24:21 PM PST by searchandrecovery (This tagline intentionally left blank.)
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To: Filibuster_60
Nonsense, We have already deal with Japan and technology, they do not have the structural depth from the technical side, outsourcing will destroy them. And the EU is facing a similar problem from the social side, they also do not have the research depth.

But as I say, they would all follow us in a heartbeat, and if they do not slap a tariff on them. Raise our technology so high in this country that it out paces them. For instance, finally tackle software automation. Of course it is feasible. Just stop using economic policy to implement foreign policy and see economic policy as part of national security policy. What are they going to do, bleed out their own national economies to China? they all have export driven economies, and heavily protected ones at that. China and India will not let them into their markets unless there is tech transfer, and CHina will never let anyone but Chinese companies get that "vast Chinese market," they are just kidding themselves. Let the rest of the G7 bleed themselves dry. We will puzh ahead in tech ourselves and by the time china and India have sucked the G7 dry we will be decades beyond the Chinese. The trick here is to understand that Tech in not an industry in and of its selve but a supporting service. This is one reason that Bush's DOE and NASA strategies are actually pretty sound, thought I do not think that he sees things as I do.

50 posted on 03/08/2004 5:28:21 PM PST by CasearianDaoist ((Nuance THIS!))
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