Was Kerry Involved In Plans To Murder 7 US Senators In 1971?

"Winter Soldiers"/ "Home To War" | March 11, 2004 | Various

[Hon]

As I posted on a thread a couple of weeks ago, Kerry's group the VVAW had discussing the assassination of pro-war US Senators.

Kerry's Group The VVAW Discussed Assassinating Seven Pro-War Senators In December 1971

The following is an excerpt from a book, "Winter Soldiers," by Richard Staciewicz, pp 294-295:

In the fall of 1971, tensions over the direction in which the organization was heading, as it spread out into various community activities and took on a more consciously anti-imperialist position, were becoming more evident. In November, an emergency meeting of the steering committee was held in Kansas City. This meeting was a result of the growing friction among members of the steering committee, and between new members and the old leadership.

[snip]

[Terry DuBose] TDB: That was also where there was actually some discussion of assassinating some senators during the Christmas holidays. They were people who I knew from the organization with hotheaded rhetoric.

They had a list of six senators ... Helms, John Tower, and I can't remember the others, who they wanted to assassinate when they adjourned for Christmas. They were the ones voting to fund the war. They approached me about assassinating John Tower because he was from Texas. The logic made a certain amount of sense because there's thousands of people dying in southeast Asia. We can shoot these six people and probably stop it. Some of us were willing to sabotage materials, but when it came to people ... I mean, there were a lot of angry people...

The following is from Gerald Nicosia's book, "Home To War," pp 221-223:

[Scott] Camil proposed VVAW return in force to Washington, D.C., and there apply pressure in every conceivable way to the legislators who were still voting to fund the war. After the assembly of coordinators defeated the plan, he was told it was “a closed issue at this point." Camil replied that such a tactic was "never a closed issue." He then made known an even more radical proposal, which he intended to submit to the coordinators for their approval. If undertaken, he claimed, it would guarantee the end of congressional support for the war. It was this proposal that nearly blew the Kansas City convention wide open, and which branded Camil as both dangerous and crazy for the remainder of his time in the organization.

What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy. When they got the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their "debugging expert" uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again - to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a "crash pad," on 77th Terrace. This time a vote was taken to exclude anyone but regional coordinators and members the national office. The rest of the members, even trusted leaders such as Randy Barnes and John Upton (who had earned their credibility in the mud and tears of Dewey Canvon III), were forced to wait outside on the grass, where messeng­ers brought frequent word of what was going on inside. According to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy."

Discussion was not exactly the word for it. John Upton recalls it being "a knock-down-drag-out [fight] at times." Randy Barnes remembers "people standing up on the tables yelling and screaming at one another." The proposal that fired so much anger was called the "Phoenix plan," in mockery of the U.S. government's similar program in Vietnam. There was, in fact, good evidence that the United States Studies and Observation Group (SOG) - known to those inside it as the Special Operations Group - had used its own Special Forces, those of South Vietnam, and even South Vietnamese mercenaries to murder various Communist and Communist-sympathizing village chiefs, political leaders,­ and other influential citizens in South Vietnam. Some say as many as 10,000 were assassinated, in order (theoretically) to rebuild a more democratic infrastructure in the south. Hence the name "Phoenix": a better, stronger Vietnam was supposed to rise from the ashes of the Communist-tainted one. Similarly, Camil now proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress, as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement - the ones who would rather die than see America suffer a military defeat in Vietnam. Fine, let them die, suggested Camil - in fact, help them along in that direction and once they were cleared out of the way, a truly democratic America could arise, one that would choose to be at peace with the rest of the world.

When the Phoenix plan first came before the steering committee meeting, John Upton had been standing almost next to Camil, and he recalls that "at first it was laughed off. Then he [Camil] became really irate, and some other people that were supporting that got really irate, and it got down to a really hard discussion about it. There was a time, I'm not kidding you, I was almost one of them. Especially when we moved over to 77th Terrace, a lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it. I thought it was a novel idea, but it was not something I would support. I looked on it as doing just what we were fighting against. It was killing people for no [good] reason. I remember saying this, and somebodv stood up and called me a 'moderate'! If I went an inch more crazier than I was, I could have endorsed it one hundred percent. Scott was pissed off just like I was. He was one of those people I really identified with ­ with the anger I saw there. My whole instinct here was, `Let's demonstrate and do these things against the fucking war, to get the word out. Let's talk in high schools. But let's do things legal. Let's get the right permits.' The Phoenix plan was like, that's what needs to be done, but, God, we can't really do that."

The Phoenix plan, like the rest of Camil's proposals, was voted down in Kansas City, but its specter had only begun to haunt the organization; and, ironically enough, among those whose imaginations it enflamed were those very agents who had been charged with finding a way to destroy VVAW.

Nicosia is unlcear as to whether Kerry was still involved with the VVAW at this time. At one point he says that Kerry left the VVAW leadership, after a public showdown with Al Hubbard in July 1971. But then at other times Nicosia seems to suggest that Kerry was not removed from the leadership until after the Kansas City meeting.

Even if Kerry was no longer involved in the VVAW's leadership at the time of this discussion, it still likely that he had heard about this discussion, since it was such a pivotal moment in his group's direction according to Nicosia--or more precisely, the VVAW members he quotes.

So if Kerry heard about this discussion did he report it to the proper authorities at the time? If not, why not?

[Hon]

Lest we forget, it was Scott Camil's testimony that Kerry regurgiatated for the Senate Committee in April, 1971.

Kerry reportedly met with Scott Camil while he was in Florida just last week. Of course Camil is supporting Kerry.

In any case, Scott Camil is still willing to spread his insights--for a fee:

Veterans Call to Conscience Speakers Bureau

Available for National & International Press

Press Release   3/1/2003

Scott Camil Marine Corps 1965-1969 Box 141693 Gainesville, FL 32614 Gainesville, Florida 352.375.2563 s.camil@att.net

20 months in Vietnam, 2 Purple hearts. Southeast Regional Coordinator VVAW 1971-1973. Gainesville 8 defendant 1972-73. Founder Gainesville Veterans for Peace 1987. VFP Central American fact finding trip, 1987. Eastern United States Coordinator, Vietnam Friendship Village project. Member, Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialist. Green Party Agent, Alachua County FL. St. Johns Sierra Club Executive Committee member, Political. Draft counselor, Central Committee for Conscience Objectors, Alachua

Source

[Torie]

This is the kind of thread the oppositon loves.

[ambrose]

Was Kerry Involved In Plans To Murder 7 US Senators In 1971?

Wow! While I don't think Kerry is a murderer, I do believe these allegations raise all sort of questions. Hopefully Kerry will release his files so we'll learn the truth. If he doesn't have anything to hide, I'm sure he'll release them.

[Hon]

LOL. Sure they do.

[ambrose]

This is the kind of thread the oppositon loves.

Torie, the opposition (i.e., DU) has multiple threads speculating that Ronald Reagan is already dead, but Bush is covering this up and will announce his death just before the election.

[Torie]

Bring it on!

[ladyinred]

Far be it from us to believe there is evil in politics!

[Cicero]

Many thanks for your excellent investigative works on this and other threads.

[Hon]

"While I don't think Kerry is a murderer,"

That's not what Kerry says:

John Kerry Is A Self-Admitted War Criminal
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1074482/posts

"I do believe these allegations raise all sort of questions."

Sure. Even if he wasn't involved in the actual plotting, which I myself doubt, he must have gotten wind of it at some point. If so, he had a legal (and moral) responsibility to report it.

Anyway, Richard Nixon wasn't involved in the break-in of the Watergate. The question is "What did Kerry know and when did he know it?"

[MJY1288]

I seriously doubt Kerry could be involved in a plot to kill any U.S. Senators....... Unless of course, they were already mortally wounded :-)

[PRO 1]

Could this be why Kerry does not wish to release his FBI file???

[WorkingClassFilth]

"...I don't think Kerry is a murderer..."

Didn't Kerry already admit to killing a wounded vietnamese as evidence of his "war-crime" guilt?

[woodyinscc]

Torie is right, the rat media picks stuff like this up and turns it into a maelstrom, and at the same time lets their cohorts continue to wallow in their sty's.

[soozla]

My My......Bush must have a regular refrigerated filing cabinet filled with bodies to insure his election....Osama supposedly is in there too....... ;^)

[soozla]

"Could this be why Kerry does not wish to release his FBI file???"

Don't worry, Hillary will release it FOR him in about August or September.

[Hon]

The truth about Kerry

Sunday, December 14, 2003

Kerry later arrived in Washington for an encampment to protest the war, and to provide evidence against his country on Capitol Hill, dressed in his fatigues. Much of the speech Kerry gave to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee painted his fellow GIs as brutal sadists.

He picked up on the testimony of one Marine Sgt. Scott Camil, who said the U.S. military had raped, cut off ears, heads and limbs and participated in many other atrocities. He said that he found the accounts of torture "shocking and irrefutable."

Source

[Hon]

For the record my title for this piece was "Was Kerry Involved In Plans to Murder 7 US Senators In 1971?" The moderators have changed the headline without any edit notes.

Just bear this in mind in the next few weeks, as you see more and more about this story.

[Hon]

Scott Camil's "testimony" before the Winter Soldier Investigation:

My name is Scott Camil. I was a sergeant attached to Charley 1/1. My testimony involves burning of villages with civilians in them, the cutting off of ears, cutting off of heads, torturing of prisoners, calling in of artillery on villages for games, corpsmen killing wounded prisoners, napalm dropped on villages, women being raped, women and children being massacred, gas used on people, animals slaughtered...

John Kerry's "testimony" before the Senate:

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam...

[Hon]

Ingredients from 2000 back in Florida mix

Nader, who ran under the Green Party banner in 2000 and now intends to run as an independent, appears to be less of a factor in the minds of both Democrats and Republicans, so far. Though some Democrats express concern about what may happen if Nader is on the ballot here again, many say he won't attract nearly as much support this time.

"I think those of us who voted for him in 2000 learned our lesson," said Scott Camil, a Green Party organizer from Gainesville who is backing Kerry. "There's too much at stake this year to vote with your heart and not your head."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040308-9999-1n8florida.html

[VadeRetro]

You have the evidence!

John Freakin' Kerry is a

PLAGIARIST!

[tracer]

wellawellabump

[JoJo Gunn]

I agree with their changing your sensationalist title. Kerry's name doesn't even come up until this point, which appears to me to be your commentary:

"Nicosia is unlcear as to whether Kerry was still involved with the VVAW at this time...."

[Hon]

I had hoped I wasn't writing in a vacuum and didn't have to re-invent the wheel (to mix mets) since I provided the link in the first paragraph where Kerry's involvment is more spelled out.

But for you let me explain. Kerry was seen within the VVAW as either the number one or number two man during 1971. Al Hubbard was the other top leader. (The media saw him as the number one man.)

There is considerable controversy as to when Kerry left the VVAW leadership and when he left the VVAW entirely. But even Nicosia's account talks about the leadership changing AFTER the Kansas City meeting in November--where these events described occurred.

Kerry's close involvement with this the people involved in these discussion is incontrovertible. He is still closely involved with many of these same VVAW. (A former VVAW member, John Hurley, is the head of Veterans For Kerry.) It is also reported that Camil had brought up this idea during Dewey Canyon III, in April 1971.

It is not in the least bit sensational to ask what Kerry's involvement was. In fact, the current headline is far more misleading than mine was, for there is no question whatsoever about the VVAW being involved. We have their admissions in black and white.

[Deb]

Geez, I can't believe Jesse Helms made it this far.

The monumental hypocrisy and deliberate lack of curiosity (a constant chant against GW) on the part of the media is causing my brain to overheat.

[Hon]

Scott Camil and the Gainesville Eight
oral history analysis

Throughout the interview, Landers is able to remain calm and somewhat detached, and avoids getting emotionally involved to the extent of sacrificing objectivity as a result of the shocking nature of Camil’s often graphic testimony. This skill is epitomized by his reaction to Camil’s explanation of an alternative to symbolically throwing away medals during a march on Washington [Dewey Canyon III, in April 1971].

Camil prefaces the plan by saying that it is something he has never told anyone before, and “I did not think it was terrible at the time. My plan was that, on the last day…we would go into the [congressional] offices…we would schedule the most hard-core hawks for last-and we would shoot them all.”

http://innerspace-unltd.net/writing/camil.html

There is NO doubt about Kerry's position within the VVAW in April, 1971.

[Deb]

Remember when some Democrats floated the rumor that GW was responsible for Paul Wellstone's plane crash and demanded an investigation? Here you've got actual members of Kerry's "Band of Brothers" advocating the murder of conservative Senators!!! I think this is incredible.

[Torie]

Good to see you again Deb. I hope this finds you well.

[Hon]

"deliberate lack of curiosity (a constant chant against GW) on the part of the media"

It's not just the media. But yeah, it is maddening.

[Hon]

Here is another brother in the band you might want to take a gander at:

Kerry's Veteran Organizer Joe Bangert Sang For The Enemy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092856/posts

Joe Bangert's Testimony Before The Winter Soldiers Investigation [Bangert Is Kerry's Vet Organizer]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092905/posts

One Of John Kerry's "Band Of Brothers"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092936/posts

I promise you will be shocked.

[Cornelius Jay McGuyver]

Bumpity-bump-bump

[doug from upland]

Perhaps the press needs to ask Kerry if he had ever attended a meeting where assassination was discussed.

[JoJo Gunn]

How nice of you to explain. Changes nothing.

[secretagent]

Thanks not just for posting these threads, and keeping track of the stories.

You have a knack from framing the facts in a coherent "gestalt". Connecting the dots!

[Hon]

Thanks for the kind words.

[Balata]

Kudos for all your efforts.

Because the left doesn't want to see Kerry and Hanoi Jane linked (ie. a picture) I think the agenda that showed the time each was scheduled to speak should get wide dissemination.

[doug from upland]

Great work. It has been sent to contacts at CBS, ABC, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, and New York Post.

[Hon]

Thanks. And you're right. That was what was so frustrating about how they treated the picture and ignored the story:

John Kerry At Valley Forge (With Jane Fonda) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1074369/posts

And, as you say, they certainly don't want to admit that Kerry was the LEAD speaker that day:

[RippleFire]

bump

[Deb]

I'm very well (except for my John F. Kerry migraine) and it's a relief to see you're still around.

[bellas_sister]

Holy Crap!!! Do you think any of this will ever see the light of day or nite time network news....?

[Hon]

"Do you think any of this will ever see the light of day or nite time network news....?"

If there is even a shred of journalistic integrity left in the world it would be.

But, no, I don't think it will ever get addressed by the networks.

The network news organizations are simply another propaganda arm of the Democrat party's political machine.

[Deb]

Geez, if folks here at FR don't go nuts over this info it's hard to imagine the press will bite. It sure blows me away.

[bellas_sister]

Well, all I can say is I will pass it on...

God bless you for all your hard work.....

You benefit us all and hopefully will educate the masses

[cyncooper]

Kerry reportedly met with Scott Camil while he was in Florida just last week. Of course Camil is supporting Kerry.

Hon, I followed some of the links posted at today's thread based on the New York Sun article. They said the Kerry campaign contacted Camil in Orlando last week, but he did not meet with Kerry personally. Do you know more? Or is that the extent at this point. I'm thinking it's mighty odd for even "just" the campaign to reach out to Camil.

[Hon]

"Hon, I followed some of the links posted at today's thread based on the New York Sun article. They said the Kerry campaign contacted Camil in Orlando last week, but he did not meet with Kerry personally. Do you know more? Or is that the extent at this point. I'm thinking it's mighty odd for even "just" the campaign to reach out to Camil."

I believe that Kerry and Camil were scheduled to meet, but the meeting didn't come off. If I was told why, I have forgotten. But it might have been a scheduling conflict.

Camil is already on record as backing Kerry. He had voted for Nader last time and says that "we" can't afford to make that mistake again.

Camil is very active politically--you can even pay him to speak to you--he belongs to a "pacifict" (meaning Anti-American) speakers bureau.

So I would be very surprised if he doesn't end up working for Kerry, if he isn't already.

[rwfromkansas]

Dubose says that Kerry was in place and resigned with other leadership during the KC meeting. This is consistent with Randy Barnes' account.

[syriacus]

Here [on FR] is a longish interview with Camil, from the Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio) (Tuesday) August 3, 1971, Page 9, by Tom Tiede.

In it Camil "confesses" to killing civilians.

[StriperSniper]

must have a regular refrigerated filing cabinet filled with bodies

Sure sounds like it, too many X-Files. ;-)