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The Fringe Fires at Bush on Iraq (Ted Kennedy and paleoconservatives comrades-in-arms)
The Los Angeles Times ^ | March 11, 2003 | Max Boot

Posted on 03/11/2004 1:24:00 PM PST by quidnunc

Ted Kennedy delivered another stemwinder last week, accusing the Bush administration of lying its way into Iraq for political gain. Ho-hum. Nothing new there. But one paragraph caught my attention.

In trying to buttress his charge that the president twisted intelligence about Saddam Hussein, Kennedy cited "Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, a recently retired Air Force intelligence officer who served in the Pentagon during the buildup to the war." He quoted her as follows: "It wasn't intelligence — it was propaganda … they'd take a little bit of intelligence, cherry-pick it, make it sound much more exciting, usually by taking it out of context, usually by juxtaposition of two pieces of information that don't belong together."

Sounds pretty damning, doesn't it? Those aren't the words of a political opponent; that's the judgment of a presumably disinterested military professional. Except that Kwiatkowski's judgment doesn't look so disinterested when you examine her views more closely.

Since her retirement in March 2003, she has become a prolific contributor to isolationist publications like the American Conservative, Pat Buchanan's magazine, and lewrockwell.com, an ultra-libertarian website. Pretty much all her work is devoted to uncovering "neoconservative warmongers" who have supposedly taken over U.S. foreign policy.

She is not subtle in denouncing "Dickie Cheney, Richie Perle and Dougie Feith" (as well as, occasionally, "my pal, Max Boot"), whose "neoconservative philosophy is hateful to humanity, anti-American, statist and anti-free trade." (Anti-free trade?) She thinks the United States is a "maturing fascist state." And she predicts a dire fate for those who led us into the Iraq war: "Some folks on the Pentagon's E-ring may be sitting beside Hussein in the war crimes tribunals."

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: antiwarright; isolationists; karenkwiatkowski; maxboot; paleocons; wilsonians

1 posted on 03/11/2004 1:24:00 PM PST by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc; kcvl; Tamsey; Mo1; Miss Marple; My2Cents; gatorbait; PhiKapMom; hchutch; Dog; ...
More on Miss Karen.
2 posted on 03/11/2004 1:27:58 PM PST by Howlin (Charter Member of the Incredible Interlocking Institutional Power!!!!)
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To: quidnunc
I think that is the woman I saw on John Gibson yesterday. He blew her up, he asked her if she was allowed access to every bit of intelligence that was given to the President. She said no, and he said well then how can you possibly know if he was cherry picking or not.

She went off into a typical liberal slobbering rant and I knew she had to have a agenda. She went on and on about not liking Chalibi and Rumsfield etc,etc.
3 posted on 03/11/2004 1:32:10 PM PST by federal
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To: Howlin
With Ted Kennedy, you can be pretty much assured it's the liquor talking. I don't know what the paleos' excuse is.
4 posted on 03/11/2004 1:38:48 PM PST by My2Cents ("Well...there you go again.")
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To: quidnunc
More evidence that Pat Buchanan is a wack job, to have the likes of her contributing to his fishwrap.
5 posted on 03/11/2004 1:40:33 PM PST by My2Cents ("Well...there you go again.")
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To: quidnunc
Some on the left, citing LewRockell et al., are urging Kerry to pick Clark as a running mate, because all other possibilities - McCain, Bill Clinton, Howard Dean - are neocons. (!)
6 posted on 03/11/2004 1:44:26 PM PST by mountaineer
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To: federal
I think that is the woman I saw on John Gibson yesterday. He blew her up, he asked her if she was allowed access to every bit of intelligence that was given to the President.

I saw that. It was her. Gibson filleted her, even though she attempted to fillibuster the entire interview.


Show 'em my motto!

7 posted on 03/11/2004 1:44:34 PM PST by rdb3 (The Servant of Jehovah is the Christ of Calvary and of the empty tomb. <><)
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To: Howlin
This whack job is with Pat??

I'm SHOCKED

8 posted on 03/11/2004 1:44:38 PM PST by Mo1 (Do you want a president who injects poison into his skull for vanity?)
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To: My2Cents
More evidence that Pat Buchanan is a wack job, to have the likes of her contributing to his fishwrap.

Buchanan is no "wack job." He knows precisely what he is doing. And he's doing it very well.


Show 'em my motto!

9 posted on 03/11/2004 1:46:29 PM PST by rdb3 (The Servant of Jehovah is the Christ of Calvary and of the empty tomb. <><)
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To: quidnunc
Funny, I was just thinking that "Waffles" Kerry should pick Pat Buchanan as his running mate if he wants to pick an (R), he's much more like Kerry than McCain is.
10 posted on 03/11/2004 1:47:47 PM PST by adam_az (Call your state Republican party office and VOLUNTEER FOR A CAMPAIGN!!!)
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To: rdb3
I saw that. It was her. Gibson filleted her, even though she attempted to fillibuster the entire interview.



I thought that was probably her. Gibson just blew her entire bogus story up and exposed her agenda. And your right as soon as she realized he wasn't about to give her a bye she just did her liberal equivalent of the old fingers in the ears and yell routine. Just filibuster non stop.
11 posted on 03/11/2004 1:53:53 PM PST by federal
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To: quidnunc
The first person I ever heard of being called a paleocon was my favorite professor, Forrest McDonald. I vividly recall him describing an encounter he had with Teddy Kennedy outside a judiciary committee hearing regarding Robert Bork. McDonald was there to testify on behalf of Judge Bork. Years later, my hubby called Dr. McDonald a paleocon as a joke because he is old, and he is VERY conservative. Dr. McDonald then repeated the term on Booknotes during an interview with Brian Lamb. Since that time, the term has been hijacked by folks who do not seem to share the same ideology. They are all over the page with their conservatism.

Meanwhile, I also recall Dr. McDonald speaking of his admiration for the only principled conservatives he knew in Congress. I think he limited it to two, but there may have been a few more. Dick Cheney was #1 and Dick Armey was #2. That was in 1989ish. (He was speaking of Cheney when he was a Congressman.) When Forrest McDonald praises a politician for anything, you know he must be like-minded. Therefore, I have always concluded that Dick Cheney is of the same conservative mindframe. He is a paleoconservative as defined by a master wordsmith, Forrest McDonald. Dick Cheney is not a neocon. Or he would NEVER have been picked to be the conservative to Bush's more moderate nature. btw, Dr. McDonald's definition of paleocon is "old conservative." Meaning, someone who has been a conservative for a very, very long time. That does not mean a conservative who is stuck in the 1920s or 1930s.

Anytime I read articles on the paleo/neo subject, I get the feeling that someone is trying to divide conservatives. And at times, they do a very good job. Not today.
12 posted on 03/11/2004 1:57:34 PM PST by petitfour
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To: federal
And your right as soon as she realized he wasn't about to give her a bye she just did her liberal equivalent of the old fingers in the ears and yell routine. Just filibuster non stop.

All the while having a Maxine Waters type of sneer on her face. You know the one. The one where it appears that someone is perpetually smelling flatulence.

Gibson remained professional and let her just stew in it. It was so funny.


Show 'em my motto!

13 posted on 03/11/2004 2:00:21 PM PST by rdb3 (The Servant of Jehovah is the Christ of Calvary and of the empty tomb. <><)
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To: petitfour
The term "paleoconservative" has come to mean something very specific; those isolationist, nativist, crypto-populist radicals who call themselves conservatives in order to give themselves a fig leaf of legitimacy, but who really have more in common with the anti-globalist anarchists than they do with real conservatives.
14 posted on 03/11/2004 2:08:46 PM PST by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: My2Cents; Howlin
Ditto both your comments, M2C.
15 posted on 03/11/2004 2:09:49 PM PST by onyx (Kerry' s a Veteran, but so were Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh and Benedict Arnold.)
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To: quidnunc
Who redefined the term? When did they redefine it? I mostly read of self-described neo-conservatives defining paleoconservatives as being right-wing extremists and Nazis and other inflamatory names. So when did the term evolve? Forrest McDonald used the term in 1994. (I think.) And Forrest McDonald is none of the things I listed above. At what point did the redefinition take effect?

As I said, the whole debate is highly divisive.
16 posted on 03/11/2004 2:19:10 PM PST by petitfour
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To: quidnunc
This is a fascinating subject for me. I think I'll have to do my Senior Project (12hr course) on this subject, even though the profs who will oversee such will most certainly be liberals. I shall attempt to trace the term, paleoconservative, and its evolution. I'll start here at FR. :)
17 posted on 03/11/2004 2:25:06 PM PST by petitfour
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To: quidnunc
The Education Bill: Bush and Kennedy Comrades in Arms.
18 posted on 03/11/2004 2:26:45 PM PST by Austin Willard Wright
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To: petitfour
From Wikipedia

-snip-

The name "paleoconservative" was chosen to differentiate itself from "neoconservatism". Where the neos were (Latin for) new the paleos were old. The rift is often traced back to a dispute over the director of the National Endowment for the Humanitiesby the incoming Reagan Administration. The preferred candidate was professor Mel Bradford and he was replaced after an effective media and lobbying effort (focussing on his dislike of Abraham Lincoln) by the less experienced William Bennett. The paleoconservatives view the neoconservatives as interlopers. They furthermore tend to see the methods of the neo-conservatives as simply those of right wing Trotskyites and not more civilised Conservatives. Their view of the mainstream conservative movement is that of a self interested movement lacking the self confidence to defend its old ideas.

-snip-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservative

As far as being divisive, that a very good thing since the paleocons are constantly being used by liberals to discredit the conservative movement as a whole.

19 posted on 03/11/2004 2:27:59 PM PST by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
As far as being divisive, that a very good thing since the paleocons are constantly being used by liberals to discredit the conservative movement as a whole.

I see it very differently. I see the neoconservatives discrediting the "conservatism movement as a whole" via their machinations and their metropolitan disdain for social conservatives. That their errand boy McCain is openly flirting with Kerry tells which way the wind is blowing for the president they snookered.

As for Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, well I read her piece where she detailed the events that caused her to distrust the neoconservatives at the pentagon and she sold me (but i never trusted those guys in the first place anyhoo). I did not see the Gibson interview, but when I have seen her I found that she comes off quite well.

The notion that paleos are supposed to apologize for being on the same side of the Iraq war debate as the swimmer is as ridiculous as pro-war conservatives being asked to feel shabby for being on the same side as Tom Lantos, Andrew Sullivan and Mort Zuckerman.
20 posted on 03/11/2004 2:42:25 PM PST by mr.pink
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To: quidnunc
Interestingly, Prof. Bradford was very dear friend of Forrest McDonald. I was too young to pay attention to all the politics of the NEH in the early 80s. The person who followed Bill Bennett? Lynne Cheney. She was chair when Forrest McDonald was awarded the Jefferson Lectureship/Lecturer.
21 posted on 03/11/2004 8:23:59 PM PST by petitfour
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Destro
Linking to an article by Dennis "Justin" Raimondo isn't going to earn you many brownie points on this forum.
23 posted on 03/12/2004 10:40:04 PM PST by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
Hmm, you did say he was wrong, you did dispute the facts......

Since his article is a direct refutation of Boot, is it not worth reading to get the other side's point of view? Yet strangely you react as if threatened.

24 posted on 03/12/2004 10:44:47 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Karen Kwiatkowski was a mid-level policy analyst who, when pressed, admitted she had no inside knowledge of the information the Administration had when the decision was made to take down Saddam. Her 15 minutes of fame are about over.
25 posted on 03/12/2004 10:46:35 PM PST by My2Cents ("Well...there you go again.")
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To: Destro; quidnunc; Howlin; federal; My2Cents; mountaineer; rdb3; Mo1; adam_az; petitfour; onyx
You mean to tell me that you are trumpeting an author who told our soldiers not to fight?

As a veteran with the 82d Airborne Division and Desert Shield/Desert Storm, I find that traitorous.


Show 'em my motto!

26 posted on 03/13/2004 2:17:37 AM PST by rdb3 (The Servant of Jehovah is the Christ of Calvary and of the empty tomb. <><)
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To: My2Cents
i saw her on tv being interviewed...she is a whacko! no wonder buchanan and his goofy followers like her ...
27 posted on 03/13/2004 2:21:33 AM PST by rrrod
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To: rdb3
Are the facts about her wrong? Since he was directly defending her against this article's smear it provided a reply that needed reading. If you can respond with facts to refute his facts then do so. Did you serve with Crazy Cabbie?
28 posted on 03/13/2004 8:40:37 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: quidnunc
Will you neo-cons ever stop being such sore winners? You won Iraq its yours now you can social engineer that third world pit called the middle east into a shining pillar of democracy and equality. The new consevervatives can join forces with the left and continue their work from such great places as Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, and now Iraq, good luck to you both.
29 posted on 03/13/2004 8:50:58 AM PST by junta
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To: junta
LOL - good one!
30 posted on 03/13/2004 8:53:50 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I've never seen such mean vindictive people as the neo-cons. I wonder if living under communism if the commisars were as brutal in dishing out unending denunciations on such a personal level?
31 posted on 03/13/2004 9:10:52 AM PST by junta
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To: Destro
Since his article is a direct refutation of Boot, is it not worth reading to get the other side's point of view?

You want the short answer? If Raimondo, then no.

32 posted on 03/13/2004 9:15:57 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: petitfour
Interestingly, Prof. Bradford was very dear friend of Forrest McDonald

I took two undergraduate English courses under Bradford at the University of Dallas in the early 70s.

Bradford, even then, led many of us to question his views on race.

33 posted on 03/13/2004 9:26:01 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: junta; Destro
If you paleos would give up your anti-semitism, you might be taken more seriously.
34 posted on 03/13/2004 9:28:28 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: junta; Destro
junta wrote: I've never seen such mean vindictive people as the neo-cons. I wonder if living under communism if the commisars were as brutal in dishing out unending denunciations on such a personal level?

If the Almighty did not mean for paleoconserevatives to be mocked, then why did he create them with such a foolish mien?

Paleocons are living proof that God does indeed have a sense of humor.

35 posted on 03/13/2004 9:50:50 AM PST by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Destro; quidnunc; Howlin; federal; My2Cents; mountaineer; rdb3; Mo1; adam_az; petitfour; onyx
He doesn't say they're wrong, he doesn't dispute the facts: instead, he employs a time-honored device straight out of the neoconservative playbook: he tries to smear them as being from "the fringe."

That's a childish ad hominem, I honestly expected better from you! Can you show me a copy of said playbook, and where this tactic is suggested? Or are you just using this kind of labelling to paint your opponent as being.... on the fringe?
36 posted on 03/13/2004 10:05:31 AM PST by adam_az (Call your state Republican party office and VOLUNTEER FOR A CAMPAIGN!!!)
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To: adam_az; Destro
Pat Buchanan gets 0.4% of the vote in 2000, and we're told he and his ilk are not "fringe."
37 posted on 03/13/2004 10:34:33 AM PST by My2Cents ("Well...there you go again.")
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To: sinkspur
That was brilliant.
38 posted on 03/13/2004 11:26:34 AM PST by junta
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To: sinkspur; junta
Guess what? I am not a paleo! Not a libertarian! and I rather die then call myself a neo-con. I am a classic Founding Fathers influenced conservative. But I will side with paleos and Libertarians befoe the neocons. As for being anti-semetic on my part? Either remove that libel or I will remove your post.
39 posted on 03/13/2004 12:43:21 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Remove the post. You're known by the company you keep. You want to use a known anti-semite, known terrorist-sympathizer like Justin Raimondo to bolster your arguments, you'll suffer from the association.
40 posted on 03/13/2004 12:58:36 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Destro
Please don't link to Raimondo or antiwar.com.
41 posted on 03/13/2004 7:30:55 PM PST by Sidebar Moderator
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To: Sidebar Moderator
I know it is anti-war's request not to put their stuff on here.
42 posted on 03/13/2004 7:47:38 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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