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Divided over gay marriage
LA Times ^ | March 12, 04 | Roy Rivenburg

Posted on 03/13/2004 7:08:21 PM PST by churchillbuff

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1 posted on 03/13/2004 7:08:21 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! It has begun!! Lord have mercy on us.
2 posted on 03/13/2004 7:11:27 PM PST by momfirst
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To: momfirst
Begun? We're already hip-deep in the muck.
3 posted on 03/13/2004 7:12:39 PM PST by thoughtomator (All I ever wanted to know about Islam I learned on 9/11)
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To: churchillbuff
Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

Calling Margaret Lewis-Marshall

4 posted on 03/13/2004 7:12:49 PM PST by Diogenesis (If you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us)
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To: churchillbuff
The other goal is to "push the parameters of sex, sexuality and family, and in the process transform the very fabric of society."

That didn't take long, now did it. After polygamy, will come man-boy marriage. After man-boy, will come incestuous marriage. After incestuous, will come bestiality marriage. After bestiality, will come necrophilia marriage.

It will all add up to the death of civilization.

5 posted on 03/13/2004 7:15:13 PM PST by SpyGuy
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To: Diogenesis
From a website: "Ms. Ettelbrick has been widely published, in law journals, books and other publications, and has spoken nationally and internationally on GLBT issues. She has taught law for 11 years and currently teaches Sexuality and the Law at New York University Law School, the University of Michigan Law School and Barnard College."
6 posted on 03/13/2004 7:15:42 PM PST by churchillbuff (?)
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To: churchillbuff
Those parameters are too limiting. What about marriage with imaginary friends?
7 posted on 03/13/2004 7:16:27 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Why the long face, John?)
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To: churchillbuff
post-Christian west
8 posted on 03/13/2004 7:16:52 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of it!!)
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To: churchillbuff
Wants to marry chair
9 posted on 03/13/2004 7:17:09 PM PST by jwalburg (Gimli supports Bush)
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To: churchillbuff
"The other goal is to 'push the parameters of sex, sexuality and family,' and in the process transform the very fabric of society."

Push the parameters of sex huh? Does that include children being sexually abused by family members and strangers as well? This whole things makes me sick!!!!!
10 posted on 03/13/2004 7:17:36 PM PST by Arpege92 (This will be a monumental struggle of GOOD -vs- evil, but GOOD will prevail. - - George W. Bush)
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To: churchillbuff
Leftist lawyers are a Satanic cult.
11 posted on 03/13/2004 7:18:34 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY (((Stand and Fight the Left)))
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To: thoughtomator
Forget about this professor. Don't you know that the real threat is MEL GIBSON!!
12 posted on 03/13/2004 7:19:38 PM PST by churchillbuff (?)
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To: churchillbuff
a network of men and women who share sexual relations.

Oh...the Charles Manson model.

13 posted on 03/13/2004 7:20:19 PM PST by Palladin (Proud to be a FReeper!)
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To: Xenalyte; Lazamataz
'Bout time! Who's our fourth?
14 posted on 03/13/2004 7:20:39 PM PST by txhurl
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To: churchillbuff
...health benefits and legal rights.

See, that's what this is all about - benefits. If people would just keep their hands out of other peoples' pockets, and mind their own damn business, none of this hoo-haw would even be happening.

I guess government is just too addictive for them to stop unless they're forced to, though.

15 posted on 03/13/2004 7:21:47 PM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: SpyGuy
It will all add up to the death of civilization.

Nah... only the death of our civilization. There are still places where they won't have this sh--.

16 posted on 03/13/2004 7:22:27 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: churchillbuff
Saying that children need mothers and fathers might come to be regarded as a form of hate speech, he adds.

This is one aspect no one talks about. Scary!

17 posted on 03/13/2004 7:22:32 PM PST by jwalburg (Gimli supports Bush)
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To: jwalburg
LMAO!! Thanks for the link - I really needed it.
18 posted on 03/13/2004 7:23:54 PM PST by momfirst
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To: mvpel
"See, that's what this is all about - benefits"

You've got that right. When this really began is when we started becoming a socialist nation in the first part of the last century.
19 posted on 03/13/2004 7:24:19 PM PST by Kerberos
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To: churchillbuff
The other goal is to "push the parameters of sex, sexuality and family, and in the process transform the very fabric of society."

Wow. They're not usually this blunt about it.

20 posted on 03/13/2004 7:24:30 PM PST by squidly (I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosity he excites among his opponents)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: churchillbuff
No one is denying any gay person the right to get married

All they need to do is find someone of the opposite sex to be married to them.

Marriage is defined as the union of a man and a woman.

22 posted on 03/13/2004 7:31:03 PM PST by syriacus (Time to repeal the 22nd Amendment. Give Bush three or four terms.)
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To: churchillbuff; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; ...
Dilemma at San Francisco City Hall Marriage License Office

Political Correctness and a Discrimination-free Society for All!!

(A possible future scene at City Hall in San Francisco)


"Next."
"Good morning. We want to apply for a marriage license."
"Names?"
"Tim and Jim Jones."
"Jones? Are you related? I see a resemblance."
"Yes, we're brothers."
"Brothers? You can't get married."
"Why not? Aren't you giving marriage licenses to same gender couples?"

"Yes, thousands. But we haven't had any siblings. That's incest!"
"Incest? No, we are not gay."
"Not gay? Then why do you want to get married?"
"For the financial benefits, of course. And we do love each other.
Besides, we don't have any other prospects."
"But we're issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples who've been denied equal protection under the law. If you are not gay, you can get married to a woman."
"Wait a minute. A gay man has the same opportunity to marry a woman as I have. But just because I'm straight doesn't mean I want to marry a woman. I want to marry Jim."
"And I want to marry Tim, Are you going to discriminate against us just because we are not gay?"
"All right, all right. I'll give you your license.


Next.
"Hi. We are here to get married."
"Names?"
"John Smith, Jane James, Robert Green, and June Johnson."
"Who wants to marry whom?"
"We all want to marry each other."
"But there are four of you!"
"That's right. You see, we're all bisexual. I love Jane and Robert, Jane loves me and June, June loves Robert and Jane, and Robert loves June and me.
All of us getting married together is the only way that we can express our sexual preferences in a marital relationship."
"But we've only been granting licenses to gay and lesbian couples."
"So you're discriminating against bisexuals!"
"No, it's just that, well, the traditional idea of marriage is that it's just for couples."
"Since when are you standing on tradition?"
"Well, I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere."
"Who says? You didn't draw the line at tradition marriage.
There's no logical reason to limit marriage to couples only.
The more the better. Besides, we demand our rights! The mayor says the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law. Give us a marriage license!"
"All right, all right, here's your license."


"Next,"
"Hello, I would like to marry my dog"
"What!! Marry your dog --are your crazy?"
"How dare you insult me and my dog."
"But, you cannot marry your dog!"
"Who says so? I want my consitutional rights. You marry everyone else so you must marry me and Fido. I'll sue you if you deny me my rights."
"All Right, All Right here's your license"


"Next."
"Hello, I'd like a marriage license."
"In what names?"
"David Deets."
"And the other man?"
"That's all. I want to marry myself."
"Marry yourself? What do you mean?"
"Well, my psychiatrist says I have a dual personality, so I want to marry the two together. Maybe I can file a joint income-tax return. I have constitutional rights!!"



Think about it................

23 posted on 03/13/2004 7:40:21 PM PST by narses (If you want OFF or ON my Ping list, please email me.)
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To: churchillbuff

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE----HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

24 posted on 03/13/2004 7:41:10 PM PST by AdamSelene235
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To: narses
Lets see if the comic will display


25 posted on 03/13/2004 7:51:21 PM PST by sociotard (I am the one true Sociotard)
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To: churchillbuff
She's barnyardaphobic.
26 posted on 03/13/2004 7:53:10 PM PST by jwalsh07 (We're bringing it on John but you can't handle the truth!)
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To: churchillbuff
From what I remember of anthropology, every society that has lasted long enough to write about has recognized the concept of a marriage as being between one man and one or more women; while many societies limit the number of women to one, that limitation is not nearly so universal as the requirements that there be exactly one man and at least one woman.

Indeed, I would suggest that the question of whether polygyny should be allowed is in many ways not so much a moral issue as a practical one. Since multiple men cannot share a woman (if they did, they wouldn't know whose children were whose) then unless there are many more women than men, allowing some men to have multiple wives would produce a shortage of women.

To be sure, women are well within their rights to insist that they be their husband's sole love interest, and I suspect the vast majority of women would so insist. But polygyny is far less morally dubious than the 'same sex marriage' notions that have been being pused lately.

27 posted on 03/13/2004 7:55:16 PM PST by supercat (Why is it that the more "gun safety" laws are passed, the less safe my guns seem?)
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To: churchillbuff
"Saying that children need mothers and fathers might come to be regarded as a form of hate speech, he adds."

You start out with gay marriage and pretty soon saying out loud what was common sense for the last 10,000 years is now a form of hate speech. I know where this leads. All speech other than politically correct speed makes you subject to criminal prosecution. During the 1921 famine in Russia it was a capital offense to use the word famine to refer to the famine. That's why hate speech laws (and gay marriage) are bad ideas.

28 posted on 03/13/2004 7:55:42 PM PST by DentsRun
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To: churchillbuff
This is wrong on about 7 different levels. The descent in to h*ll continues.
29 posted on 03/13/2004 8:02:42 PM PST by Jaded
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To: supercat
This ain't news to us southern folks. Golly, Bill & Hill & Gennifer & Paula & Monica etc. C'mon you crackers up North have to get with the democrat program.


30 posted on 03/13/2004 8:04:29 PM PST by Therapist
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To: churchillbuff
Rick Santorum's prophecy. Hey dude check out that box over there with Pandora written on it; open it up dude!
31 posted on 03/13/2004 8:05:45 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: momfirst
Relax. I am in the legal education industry and the thing these jokers like more than anything is a podium and a chance to talk and intimidate people.

They are a laughable lot, most of them. It's just business as usual.
32 posted on 03/13/2004 8:07:00 PM PST by HitmanLV (I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.)
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To: churchillbuff
The other goal is to "push the parameters of sex, sexuality and family, and in the process transform the very fabric of society."


This is they're true goal. They live to experience the joy of sex. Any kind of sex.

Lower the voting age to 14 by:John Vasconcellos

Greg Shields, spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America said, "A person who engages in homosexual conduct is not a role model for those (family) values." California Sen. John Vasconcellos, a gay-rights advocate, distributed a memo concerning Millan's view to every state legislator. (Christian Times.) The good Senator also advocates state funding to research the medical uses of marijuana and ways to distribute it. When this is all passed the homosexual leader with aids can also legally smoke their "medicine" before the boy scouts without fear of reprimand.

Is this his son?

http://www.sfaf.org/aboutsfaf/outreach/index.html?april01/development_dir.html~frontpage

John Vasconcellos Takes Over as SFAF's Director of Development

After eight years as Director of Development of the San Francisco AIDS Foundation, Jane Breyer is turning over the reins to Associate Director John Vasconcellos.
33 posted on 03/13/2004 8:27:23 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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To: Jeff Chandler
I hope someone shows up just like in the Woody Allen flick; the skit with Gene Wilder and the Greek guy that was in love with his ewe; then Wilder fell in love with it. NAMSLA(North American Man Sheep Love Association) will rock when it is chartered. Motto: Bully For Woolly Love.
I hope they keep it coming.
34 posted on 03/13/2004 8:28:20 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: mvpel
Trust me, this ain't about benefits; civil unions would take care of that. This is about limiting parental control over our children and nothing else.
35 posted on 03/13/2004 8:36:43 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: churchillbuff
Deep within the article:
[Bronson says he cringes when he sees coverage of gay marriage. "It's always the same story. There's a photo of a loving, caring, monogamous lesbian couple, raising adopted orphans. 'We only want the rights given to everyone else,' they plead," he recently wrote. "In our Oprah-fied culture, blubbery emotion must be fed. So the definition of marriage that has outlasted the Great Pyramids and crosses more cultural, geographic, religious and ethnic boundaries than the Great Wall of China is crumbling under the slow drip of 'I want.' "]

I'd like to thank him for saying exactly what I've been thinking about the media and many of my "conservative" friends who support gay marriage.
36 posted on 03/13/2004 8:38:50 PM PST by the right side jedi
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To: churchillbuff
After we pass teh FMA,

WE START DEFUNDING LAW SCHOOLS!!!!


There is no reason to ANY law school which is overwhelmingly leftist.

law schools are just as much a branch of the judicial as west point is part of the executive.
37 posted on 03/13/2004 8:47:44 PM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: churchillbuff
How about "line marriages"? Readers of R. Heinlien might be familiar...
38 posted on 03/13/2004 8:55:37 PM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: narses
That sounds so much like a Monty Python sketch, I thought it was from a lost episode or something!
39 posted on 03/13/2004 8:59:00 PM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: churchillbuff
"An example could include a lesbian couple living with a sperm-donor father, or a network of men and women who share sexual relations."

Sounds suspiciously like discrimination against straight normal heteros to me.

40 posted on 03/13/2004 9:02:58 PM PST by adam_az (Call your state Republican party office and VOLUNTEER FOR A CAMPAIGN!!!)
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To: zeugma
Darn it. I know how to spell his name. "Heinlein". I even previewed it!
41 posted on 03/13/2004 9:04:28 PM PST by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: churchillbuff
Santorum: No apology

Wednesday, April 23, 2003
By James O'Toole, Post-Gazette Politics Editor

Dismissing calls for him to relinquish his leadership post, U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum yesterday defended his published remarks on the legal status of homosexual acts, calling it "a legitimate public policy discussion."

In an interview with Fox News last night, and in an earlier statement released by his office, the Pennsylvania Republican insisted, in the face of sharp criticism from leading Democrats and gay and lesbian groups, that his comments in an Associated Press interview had been misconstrued.

"I do not need to give an apology based on what I said or what I'm saying now," he said.

He said his remarks were a criticism of the reasoning behind a legal challenge to a Texas anti-sodomy law rather than an effort to equate homosexuality with acts such as incest and adultery.

Santorum, who holds the number three position in the Senate Republican caucus, sought to allay a controversy that began with an Associated Press story that included the quote:

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery, you have the right to anything."

In his statement, Santorum said, "My discussion with the Associated Press was about the Supreme Court privacy case [Texas vs. Lawrence], the constitutional right to privacy in general, and in context of the impact on the family. I am a firm believer that all are equal under the Constitution. My comments should not be construed in any way as a statement on individual lifestyles."

Many critics construed it just that way.

"Sen. Santorum's comments were unfortunate, and I disagree with him wholeheartedly," said Sen. Tom Daschle, the Democratic leader, in a statement released by his office.

The Human Rights Campaign, a gay and lesbian activist group, called the statement "deeply hurtful," and, invoking the ousting of former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott over remarks deemed racially insensitive, demanded similar GOP action on Santorum.

A spokesman for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, the political arm of the Democratic caucus, echoed the calls for Santorum's removal from leadership.

Sen. Bill Frist, the Tennessee Republican who succeeded Lott as GOP leader, rejected that criticism.

"Rick is a consistent voice for inclusion and compassion in the Republican Party and in the Senate, and to suggest otherwise is just politics," Frist said in a statement issued last night.

In response to a question in an appearance in Pittsburgh yesterday, Santorum's colleague, Sen. Arlen Specter, said, "I want to talk to Sen. Santorum about it. I know Sen. Santorum is not a bigot."

U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who is gay, said he had no doubt that Santorum's remarks were a reflection of outright bigotry.

"The surprise is that he's being honest about it, not that he believes this," said Frank. "This kind of gay-bashing is perfectly acceptable in the Republican Party."

Paul Weyrich, chairman of the conservative Free Congress Foundation, denounced the attacks.

"The senator is defending the sanctity of marriage. He is defending family values as defined by the Bible in which the most intimate relationships are to be between men and women and only after they have entered into the contract of marriage. There was no hate or call to violence against homosexuals expressed by Sen. Santorum," Weyrich said.

Ken O'Connor, president of the Family Research Council, called the criticism of Santorum an attempt "to intimidate defenders of marriage and silence critics of the homosexual political agenda."

At the regular White House briefing yesterday, Ari Fleischer, President Bush's press secretary, refused to be drawn into a conversation on the subject.

Sen. John Kerry, a Democratic presidential candidate from Massachusetts, criticized Santorum's remarks and the White House reticence on them.

John Brabender, the media strategist who helped soften Santorum's image with innovative commercials during his 2000 re-election victory, dismissed both the substance and the likely effect of such remarks.

"Clearly you have some Democrats piling on here and trying to make it something that it is not," he said.

Brabender rejected the Trent Lott analogy to Santorum's situation, maintaining that the controversy would be short-lived.

"What we have found is that, when properly explained, this makes sense to people," he said. "I don't see anything here."

A Democratic consultant, Neil Oxman of The Campaign Group, the Philadelphia firm that handled Gov. Ed Rendell's advertising last year, said it was too early to tell if the controversy would linger.

"How big it will be depends on how loud people shout," said Oxman. "If mainstream Democrats start shouting, it could take on a life of its own."

Oxman said the eventual political volume is likely to be a product of some mixture of genuine grass-roots concern and partisan orchestration.

As Santorum and his allies began to question the fairness and interpretation of the original Associated Press story, the news agency released fuller excerpts from the interview, which was taped on April 7.

In it, Santorum, who is a lawyer, questioned the line of legal reasoning first enunciated in a Supreme Court opinion that struck down state laws regulating contraception.

Santorum also suggested that the tendency to accept homosexual acts, or other sexuality outside of marriage, posed a threat to the institution of the family, and, by extension, to society in general.

The court's opinion in the contraception case, Griswold vs. Connecticut, found a right to privacy unstated but implicit in the Constitution.

"It all comes from, I would argue, the right to privacy that doesn't exist, in my opinion, in the United States Constitution," Santorum said.

At another point in the interview, Santorum observed, "In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge included homosexuality. That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case might be."

Echoing a variety of conservative thinkers and legal scholars, Santorum said that the Supreme Court should not interfere with state regulation of such behavior, the issue in the Texas sodomy law case that prompted his initial remarks.

"If New York doesn't want sodomy laws, if the people of New York want abortion, fine. ... I wouldn't agree with it, but that's their right. But I don't agree with the Supreme Court coming in."

Santorum, a Roman Catholic, made a distinction between homosexual people and homosexual acts.

"I have nothing, absolutely nothing, against anyone who's homosexual," he said. "If that's their orientation, then I accept that, and I have no problem with someone who has other orientations. The question is, do you act upon those orientations? So, it's not the person, it's the person's actions."



42 posted on 03/13/2004 9:08:09 PM PST by TheDon (John Kerry, self proclaimed war criminal, Democratic Presidential nominee)
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To: zeugma
Who is Monty Python?
43 posted on 03/13/2004 9:08:46 PM PST by narses (If you want OFF or ON my Ping list, please email me.)
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To: Jeff Chandler
How bout I Marry my car and use my health benifits to pay for an engine overhaul! of maybee a custom paint job she needs a face lift!!!!
44 posted on 03/13/2004 9:09:38 PM PST by KingNo155
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To: churchillbuff
"One aim, she says, is to break the stranglehold that married heterosexual couples have on health benefits and legal rights."

Discrimination against single heterosexuals!
45 posted on 03/13/2004 9:14:32 PM PST by adam_az (Call your state Republican party office and VOLUNTEER FOR A CAMPAIGN!!!)
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To: churchillbuff
If this comes to pass, the IRS will need a warehouse to store the tax code.
46 posted on 03/13/2004 9:40:45 PM PST by 3catsanadog (When anything goes, everything does.)
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To: churchillbuff
Proposed Marriage Initiative Biblical values included:

A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5.)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. (Mark 10:9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut25:5-10)--

47 posted on 03/13/2004 9:45:39 PM PST by breakem
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To: supercat
bump
48 posted on 03/13/2004 10:33:21 PM PST by churchillbuff (?)
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To: 3catsanadog
bump
49 posted on 03/13/2004 10:34:03 PM PST by churchillbuff (?)
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To: churchillbuff
If you married more than one parrot, would that be polypollyamory?
50 posted on 03/13/2004 10:34:29 PM PST by Ken H
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