Blame whom? (A precise damnation of Spain, Greece, and other European appeasers)

Victorhanson.Com ^ | March 14, 2004, 10:00 p.m. | Victor Davis Hanson

[NZerFromHK]

Let me get this straight. Two-and-a-half years after September 11, on a similar eleventh day of the month, 911 days following 9-11, and on the eve of Spanish elections, Al Qaeda or its epigones blows up 200 and wounds 1,400 Spaniards. This horrific attack follows chaotic months when Turks were similarly butchered (who opposed the Iraq War), Saudis were targeted (who opposed the Iraqi war), Moroccans were blown apart (who opposed the Iraqi war) and French periodically threatened (who opposed the Iraqi War).

[Berliner Baer]

The big news just now: Spain announced plans to withdraw its Iraq-troops

Check headlines at news.bbc.co.uk or cnn.com

[KantianBurke]

I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT

[rrrod]

excellant and to the point!

[dfwgator]

The big news just now: Spain announced plans to withdraw its Iraq-troops

Oh no, what are we going to do. * Yawn *

[rrrod]

conversation betwen euroscum and terrorist:

Terrorist: tell us where all the americans are staying at the olympics so we can kill them.

Euroscum: sure thing pals ...anything we can do to help?

[KangarooJacqui]

As my father (a New Zealander by birth, and right-wing by nature), said whilst watching the news tonight when the Spanish elections came up, "So the terrorists won then."

Where do Europeans GET this "lie-down-roll-over-and-die" mentality when dealing with these savage Islamic curs?

[NZerFromHK]

Because I suppose they have two assumptions: 1) the terrorists are perfectly rational in their reasoning. They have political demands. You make it and they will give up bombing you, and 2) they still believe that the matter is entirely between the Islamic terrorists and the United States. "Get out of the way and they won't give a look at you.". Of course they will realize the mistake in the future, but for now...I have nothing else to say.

[Batrachian]

You've got to hand it to Al Qaeda. They really knew what buttons to press. They understand European attitudes perfectly.

What's even more worrisome to me than Spain withdrawing their largely symbolic support from OIF is that two and a half years after 9/11 Al Qaeda is still capable of carrying out such effective operations.

Our government only recently said that terrorists are still capable of carrying out "spectacular attacks", and they where certainly correct. Internal security in Europe is clearly not up to snuff.

[DeuceTraveler]

"I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT"

The terrorists attacked civilians and not the Spanish military. Even if the military was not there and Spain gave a words of support this would have still happened.

[metesky]

Ping the list for VDH...

[TN4Liberty]

I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT

That is the silliest argument I have ever heard, and the fact that you have posted it before doesn't make it any less silly.

You are saying that the bombing in Spain is Bush's fault, a concious decision to put civilians at risk so our government could have a talking point. How many soldiers should be the minimum we "let" someone send? If we had used Turkey to deploy troops from, would the argument have been the same? Should we now reject any help Pakistan offers since they aren't cooperating enough to suit you?

Terrorists kill people because that is what they do. They are evil, and running from them doesn't fix it. They are the bad guys, not us. They must be stopped by force, and anyone who is willing to participate in that effort should be encouraged to do so.

It is a terrible thing that happened to Spain, but your blame is badly misplaced.

[KangarooJacqui]

Because I suppose they have two assumptions: 1) the terrorists are perfectly rational in their reasoning. They have political demands. You make it and they will give up bombing you, and 2) they still believe that the matter is entirely between the Islamic terrorists and the United States. "Get out of the way and they won't give a look at you.". Of course they will realize the mistake in the future, but for now...I have nothing else to say.

Number one assumption is just absurd, and I cannot believe anyone in European law enforcement still holds these views after the IRA, Bader-Meinhof and November 17 gang incidents (amongst others) on EUROPEAN SOIL nearly thirty years ago. The only way to negotiate with people like that is to shoot them. Always has been.
Number 2 assumption is just horsehooey. Most Americans I know (no offence, FReepers) can't even correctly pronounce "Bali", let alone find it on a map. THOSE bombings were Islamic extremists sending a warning to Australia - and I'm sorry but since when has Australia been the 51st state of the USA?

We both know this current round of ass-covering in Spain and elsewhere is head-in-the-sand "diplomacy" on behalf of the Europeans. In my opinion, it is sickening.

[Use It Or Lose It]

Europe is fast becoming an Islamic continent. There may be fear, anxiety or just plain capitulation to what is seen to be an inevitable overtaking of the "western" culture of Europe by Muslims. This is not to say all of Europe will embrace radical Islam, but it will be a large base of Islamic culture and law, and it appears that because of immigration and population booms, there's little any one country can do to stop it. What we see now is the first domino to fall. We must come to grips with the fact that it won't be the last.

[rrrod]

EXACTLY RIGHT AND WELL SAID , THANK YOU!

[snooker]

Tell the euro-trash to defend the olympics. Let us know how it turns out.

[Berliner Baer]

Uuuh, not quite. Being a Bush-critic and part of the "Euro-trash", as folks here rather arrogantly tend to call us Europeans, lemme give ya my view:

1. Those already turned Terrorists are not rational. They must be tracked down and thrown into prison. They also won't care much over troop-removals or Government-changes, they'll keep on with their program.

2. Terrorists aren't born that way, they are being recruited by propaganda. One approach must be to change the basis for this propaganda, in order to weaken the future-support and get less recruits for these terrorist-groups, e.g. solving the mideast-conflict, giving Arabs a better perspective on life in their countries (a full belly is less aggressive), acting with justice against those involved in criminal acts. Winning the war on the propaganda-front is just as important as the one on law-enforcement.

Of course, the lesson from this Spanish troop-withdrawal now is a bad one - terrorists likely feel rewarded and will use this in their propaganda. One shall never give in to terrorism.

I certainly hope - and I am quite certain - that Germany won't withdraw its Afghanistan-troops, if we ever should get "punished" by these terrorist whackos.

[metesky]

Stop spamming every article with the same inane Buchananite sh!t.

The Spanish people were never staunch allies and you damn well know it.

[dfwgator]

Tell the euro-trash to defend the olympics.

I predict the US will not send their team to Athens because of security concerns.

[DugwayDuke]

"SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what?"

So you only want allies that can't/won't fight?

[rrrod]

i have the same feeling concerning the olympics..i would never trust any euroscum with the safety of our athletes.

[PogySailor]

VDH bump!

[Dane]

I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT

Yeah I know you will post it over and over again since you are Buchannite Bush hater.

Did it ever occur to you that Anzar thought he was doing the right thing in fighting terror and damn the consequences.

He didn't want to go the appeasment route promoted by socialists and Buchananites.

[metesky]

1. Those already turned Terrorists are not rational. They must be tracked down and thrown into prison killed. They also won't care much over troop-removals or Government-changes, they'll keep on with their program.

Fixed it for ya.
;O)

Welcome to Free Republic.

[dfwgator]

They must be tracked down and thrown into prison.

Prison? They must be destroyed. Throw them into prison and they can eventually be used as a negotiating tool to have them released when other terrorists take hostages.

[NZerFromHK]

e.g. solving the mideast-conflict, giving Arabs a better perspective on life in their countries (a full belly is less aggressive), acting with justice against those involved in criminal acts. Winning the war on the propaganda-front is just as important as the one on law-enforcement. Hang on, doesn't it read a lot like the Bush doctrine? :p

[rrrod]

buchannites are beneath contempt..hard to say which group is worse..buchannites or the RATS...or are they the same?

[AntiGuv]

Europe is fast becoming an Islamic continent.

Spain is only 1.2% Muslim..

[NZerFromHK]

Love that. You tried the law enforcement option for many years: it didn't work: WTC bombing in 1993 begot 1998 Kenya and Tanzania US embassies bombings, which begot USS Cole attacks in 2000, which in turn begot 9/11. If this doesn't work, why hold to it?

[MJY1288]

"I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT"

Get a grip, your own blind hatred is showing

[FreedomPoster]

>>Where do Europeans GET this "lie-down-roll-over-and-die" mentality when dealing with these savage Islamic curs?

One thing is certain, it isn't new. Jefferson attempted to form an international coalition to deal with the Barbary Pirates. He failed, Europeans found it cheaper to pay tribute than deal with the problem. Jefferson acted "unilaterally" (to use the modern term) and dealt with the issue.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[KangarooJacqui]

Europe is fast becoming an Islamic continent...What we see now is the first domino to fall. We must come to grips with the fact that it won't be the last.

Well, I don't CARE if Australia has the biggest Islamic country in the world breathing down its northern neck... we don't and won't stand for that kind of "Religion of Peace" rubbish here.

[longjack]

Grüße

This was in "Spiegel" today, in the article that summarizes the European press reactions to major events, in this case the Spanish elections.

Below a reaction from Warsaw, in my translation:

"Gazeta Wyborcza" Warsaw: "We can all judge the way, in which America reacted to September 11th in different ways, we can discuss if the engagements in Afghanistan and in Iraq made sense. First, however, especially after March 11th, we all must understand that we, like the Americans, have a dangerous, fanatical enemy: People who hate our entire world, who blame western democracies for all evils. And, in the name of their paranoid convictions are ready to kill - the bankers in Manhattan and seven month old Patricia from Poland in Madrid. We, Europeans und Americans, have to stop this enemy.

"Spiegel"....PRESSESTIMMEN

Unfortunately, I don't share your belief that Germany will react to an attack as I think Poland will. The 'Weißbrot Generation' is too entrenched, IMHO. Haven't heard any Schröder reaction t the Madrid event. What's the street reaction, in your opinion?

longjack

[NZerFromHK]

I remember that piracy was once used by European nation states in the late 16th century to early 18th century as a tool to drain gold, spices, sugar, and other valuable goods fro trading ships of rival states. Even England (and late Britain) used this tactics as well. The pirates were formally appointed military ranks (in secret) and they carried out raids on states' directions. Some later turned "real" pirates when they retired from state service.

[Berliner Baer]

The law-enforcement option is the only one to pursue with determination.

What good would military do if used now in Spain domestically?

Those terrorists often live in our midst and know our culture. Doesn'T that thousands of people to terrorize entire nations these days. Placing tanks in front of subway-stations won't help.

And no, invading Iraq wasn't a big step either in the fight against terrorism: It might have even opened up a Pandora's box for the radical Muslims to gain power (I will hopefully be proven wrong there)

[CasearianDaoist]

How are they a staunch ally? It seems that this is patently not the case. If they did not commit resources how else were they to help us? And if they helped us some other way why would they not be attacked?

The truth is that the propaganda machine of the left in the EU has no competitors - this is how socialism has maintianed its grip in Europe for 50 years. There has been a constant shrieking of anti-american propaganda for 3 years. If you throw on to of that the immense panic among the "Euro superstatists" and the pressure France is putting on Spain, Italy, the UK and Poland, is this out come really beyond expectations? There is an overwhelming desire among the leftist elites to see the US fail at anything it does. They quite literally want to replace us.

It is unfortunate but not unexpected. It may be that Aznar catered too much to the left the last year rather than adamantly stood his ground - he may have some resonsiblity for his party's defeat, don't you think? He handed the media battle for what little "swing votes" there was over to the left. And how was Spain's involvement in Iraq a "talking point," was not it necessary to try to "contain" to French? Why do you assume that because their contribution was not crucial in a tactical sense it did not play a role in the strategic sense, particularly in exposing the lie that France spoke for Europe? And are you implying that Axnar is not an independent actor here steering as best he could a course for his own nation?

Why is this event so earth shattering? It was almost certain that the left would make some gains somewhere in the EU after Iraq. It is hardly a landslide. Will it really save the SDS in Germany?

Sounds like your support for the President and this war is a tepid as the Spaniards.

[CatoRenasci]

Your notion that the Terrorists can be successfully dealt with by catching them and tossing them into jail, and by merely superior propaganda, would be charmingly naiive if it were not such a deadly error.

Your views are reminiscent of Bismark's contempt for the British in 1864 when he was asked what he would do if the British landed troops on the Frisian coast in support of the Danes: "I'd send the police to arrest them." Only problem is Germany lacks both the might and the will to even protect itself. At least in 1864, Prussia had an army.

You Europeans are so decadent and jaded, burnt out cases if you will, that you refuse to recognize we are in a WAR for civilization. Or, if you do, you are such scum that you want to sit back and let the Romans, I mean the Americans, fight it. And then you wonder why we hold you in such contempt! Your ancestors are probably spinning in their graves.

Well, at least the Poles are with us. You Germans may laugh, but the Austrians didn't laugh when the Poles raised the second Turkish siege of Vienna. You owe the Poles Europe's liberty from Islam, and you thanked them 100 years later by chopping up Poland among Prussia, Russia, and the ever-greatful Habsburg empire. Wonderful.

[dfwgator]

Jeszcze Polska Nie Zginela! God Bless Poland. They understand what tyranny imposed from the outside is.

[dfwgator]

Ping.

[NZerFromHK]

VDH new article ping! (And it seems we have some European friends finally noticing VDH here)

[KantianBurke]

Yes terrorists kill people but that's not to say they do so without foresight. Let's review. Spain's population was against sending their forces to Iraq by wide margins. Bush needed diplomatic cover after the UN refused to get involved in Iraq. See his begging India, attempts at bribing Turkey and winning over Spain to send token forces. For all intents and purposes the Spanish force was large enough to get on the news but not large enough that mass casualties would result if things became dangerous. Al Queda recognized all this and with an election coming reasoned that if a mass terror attack was launched with its "cause" being Spain's involvement in Iraq, a BIG pro Bush ally could be toppled. After yesterday's election it appears that they reasoned correctly.

[dfwgator]

Doing the right thing isn't always the popular thing, but it is still right.

[rrrod]

when will germany attack poland for standing firm against terrorist?

[KantianBurke]

exactly. I think some on this board are misinterpreting my position as being against the War in Iraq. The War in Iraq was justified IMHO. The use of a token Spanish force under the circumstances for PR value was not.

[hellinahandcart]

(a full belly is less aggressive)

All of the 9/11 hijackers were middle-class or higher, college educated, and extremely well fed. The people at the top, funding and planning these escapades, are filthy rich.

You need to think of another motive for this trend, because hunger isn't it. It may comfort you to think that, but it isn't true.

Look at which political groups support the terrorists and their pet dictators, either directly or by default (in other words, hating the U.S. more), and you'll have the beginnings of the truth.

[Berliner Baer]

If you are reading Spiegel, then you also read the articles about new measures now in law-enforcement as a reaction to Madrid.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,290634,00.html

The reaction on the street? Shocked though calm, nothing like 9/11, when 150.000 Berliners took to the streets to demonstrate their sympathy with Americans. It is not "Europe's 9/11". Perhaps Spain's, not Europe's.

And to those not reading foreign press: It's not as if Europe doesn't understand the threat from terror - Europe 'only' differed strongly with Bush on his phony arguments on the Saddam-issue - and as history showed on WMD, who was right? Germany is quite aware that a "big one" could also happen here due to our engagement in Afghanistan.

[FreedomPoster]

That's going to leave a mark. Well done, sir!

[freedom moose]

Europe is fast becoming an Islamic continent.
i don't agree.

[MEG33]

You do realize that the many of the 911 terrorists were from middle class families and went to university.I have noticed that South American poor are not flying airplanes into skyscrapers.

You failed to mention one thing that is common to most of the world's terrorists.Until they have a"reformation",the countries will not be successful.

They are preaching to "kill the infidels" in Mosques all over the world.They don't seem to mind killing many of their own faith while they blow up the infidels,either.

The middle east conflict cannot be solved. If the middle east"problem" were solved the people in middle eastern countries might have to start taking responsibility for their own failures and reform.Blaming one tiny little country for their misery is ingrained there.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

[MrBambaLaMamba]

... September 11..., March 11, ...Turks were similarly butchered...Saudis were targeted...Moroccans were blown apart...

The slaughter in Bali missed the list.

End terrorism, kill terrorists.