Florence man fined $10,000 for machine gun possession

The Tuscaloosa News ^ | rkba, bang, 2a, | AP

[TERMINATTOR]

A federal judge fined a Florence man $10,000 and ordered him to spend nine months in home detention for possessing a World War II-era machine gun.

U.S. District Judge Karen O. Bowdre also put Paul David Connolly, 49, on five year's probation and ordered him to perform 150 hours of community service.

Connolly, who had faced a possible 10-year sentence, had been indicted in April for possessing a Sten machine assembled from a kit. He later pleaded guilty.

Connolly's attorney, Jim Sturdivant, said Connolly possessed the weapon for recreational purposes only and he hoped the sentence imposed by the judge Wednesday will not be appealed.

U.S. Attorney Alice Martin said the sentence would be reviewed and that federal law "clearly prohibits the private possession of a machine gun."

[TERMINATTOR]

Federal law clearly prohibits infringements of the peoples RKBA!

"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." -- Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

[Redcoat LI]

"U.S. Attorney Alice Martin said the sentence would be reviewed and that federal law "clearly prohibits the private possession of a machine gun."

U.S. Attorney Alice Martin should check her facts.

[.38sw]

So, I'm wondering. In most kits that I'm familiar with, the receiver is chopped so that it can't be reassembled into a working machine gun. The BATFE has regulations for how the receiver must be cut. Is that the case here, and the BATFE decided that the man could just use some zip ties on the receiver and get it working again? They have referred to some of the kits as "machine guns", even though the receivers have been chopped, and all you have are a couple of the pieces, with the center piece missing. Scrap metal. But it's a "machine gun". I'm just wondering what the rest of the story is here.

[supercat]

In most kits that I'm familiar with, the receiver is chopped so that it can't be reassembled into a working machine gun. The BATFE has regulations for how the receiver must be cut. Is that the case here, and the BATFE decided that the man could just use some zip ties on the receiver and get it working again?

Per the BATF's logic, anything which could conceivably be made into a machine gun is a machine gun. If the BATF buys 500 'deactivated' [cut into pieces] machinegun receivers and manages to find two which it can manage to successfully weld together, then under BATF logic all 500 of the cut-in-half receivers are machineguns.

[Ravenstar]

They don't care about the Federal Government obeying the law, they just want you to blindly go along with whatever "rules" the BATF comes up with. Remember Randy Weaver's wife was murdered because the stock on a shotgun he sold was 3/8" to short for Randy Weaver having not paid a $5 tax!. If he had paid the tax the Feds would not have had a case!

Ravenstar

[glock rocks]

stock on a shotgun he sold was 3/8" to short

you mean barrel? shotguns don't require a stock, do they?

[Ravenstar]

If you are a specially licensed dealer and pay a $200 dollar tax for each time you sell a machine gun you can own and fire a fully functional machine gun. This man didn't obtain the license and probably didn't pay the $200 dollar tax so they fine him $10,000 dollars!

Ravenstar

[rightwingcrazy]

A federal judge fined a Florence man $10,000 and ordered him to spend nine months in home detention for possessing a World War II-era machine gun. U.S. District Judge Karen O. Bowdre also put Paul David Connolly, 49, on five year's probation and ordered him to perform 150 hours of community service.

But does he get to keep it?

[tacticalogic]

Remember Randy Weaver's wife was murdered because the stock on a shotgun he sold was 3/8" to short for Randy Weaver having not paid a $5 tax!. If he had paid the tax the Feds would not have had a case!

If the feds had really wanted the $5 they could have collected it with a lot less time an effort than they spend killing his wife.

[tacticalogic]

Remember Randy Weaver's wife was murdered because the stock on a shotgun he sold was 3/8" to short for Randy Weaver having not paid a $5 tax!. If he had paid the tax the Feds would not have had a case!

If the feds had really wanted the $5 they could have collected it with a lot less time an effort than they spend killing his wife.

[B4Ranch]

My understanding with Randy Weaver's case is that the barrel was 1/8 of an inch too short. Is there an overall length that must be followed also? 28 inches or something like that?

[45Auto]

Per the BATF's logic, anything which could conceivably be made into a machine gun is a machine gun

Yes. If you happen to possess an M-16 part, be it a trigger, bolt carrier, or disconnecter, you technically are in possession of a "machine gun." And you cannot simply install one of these pieces in your legal Ar15 because you happen to have it in your parts box. One part makes the whole gun a "machine gun" according to BATF.

[.38sw]

InterOrdinance is in deep doodoo right now for selling parts kits with the receivers supposedly improperly demilled. Buyers of those kits received a letter from the BATFE informing them that they were in possession of a machine gun subject to confiscation and seizure. So, yes, by their logic, even a couple of pieces of scrap metal can be called a "machine gun".

[45Auto]

Its not just a matter of paying the tax; you must have a Class III Federal license to possess full auto or suppressed weapons - and you can't get one that applies to new guns, because under Reagan, the BATF license issuing unit was de-funded by an act of Congress.

[glock rocks]

I think I found it.

18USC 924(c)(1)(B)(i), the statute defines a "short-barreled shotgun" as:

a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

[Warlord David]

They threw the bill of right into a paper shreader along time ago with the help of craft lawyers and politicians.

Now anyone with a gun is an enemy of the state according to this smoking crackpot US Attorney Alice Martin. That really great. Its bad enough that, "we the people" may have to fight Islamist terrorist here on our land in the near future. But we may be crimminal for trying to protect this country as well as our selves. Because of looney US Attorneys like this one.

[thackney]

BANG

[TheExperiment_Is_Over]

Actually this isn't too bad.

Ten years ago Renos Raiders would have just gassed the entire "compound".

[ol' hoghead]

I have a Winchester 1300 Ranger with a 18" barrel. IIRC the minimun length is 18".

[tacticalogic]

Now anyone with a gun is an enemy of the state according to this smoking crackpot US Attorney Alice Martin. That really great. Its bad enough that, "we the people" may have to fight Islamist terrorist here on our land in the near future. But we may be crimminal for trying to protect this country as well as our selves. Because of looney US Attorneys like this one.

Good thing she doesn't work for John Ashcroft. I hear he's very pro-2A.

[Ravenstar]

My understanding of it is yes I believe the overall length must be 26 3/8". THE BATF are supposed to be a tax collection agency for the IRS but instead they fancy themselves as a commando unit. They are the result of agents with nothing to do after prohibition. Instead of disbanding the unit they manufactured another law to give them something to do, it was called the National Firearms Act of 1934. Now if you don't pay the tax and fill out the proper forms they will shoot you to death.

Ravenstar

[Ravenstar]

looks right glock rocks, thanks for the research!

Ravenstar

[Warlord David]

At last, some one with clear thing, single minded ojectives and goals in the misted of a muddy pool. Truly John Ashcroft is a miracle.

[chadwimc]

Most outhouse lawyers will tell you to measure the barrel from the bolt face. Most legal barrels I have seen measure 18 1/4 inches to be sure...

[glock rocks]

Good thing she doesn't work for John Ashcroft. I hear he's very pro-2A.

He's also very pro-law-as-written. It's his job.

[TERMINATTOR]

Good thing Weaver didn't have one of these, or he'd have been in real trouble!

Confederate 1865 Le Mat, .40 caliber above 18 guage.

An infringement here, an infringement there, sooner or later it adds up to real tyranny.

[glock rocks]

'Tis a thing of beauty.

What foolishness the enemies of liberty have cast.

[oldfart]

The Sten receiver can be made from a piece of exhaust pipe. I've seen ads in Shotgun News for tubes with stick-on templates for cutting out the various holes to convert a simple piece of pipe to a receiver. I looked at one once at a gunshow. I'm not much of a metalworker, but I could cut it out with a dremel and some files in a few hours.

Those Sten parts kits have been around for years. I'm sure there are litterally thousands of perfectly illegal machine guns squirreled away in closets and under beds all over the country. (Begin sarcasm) It's just a matter of time before the drive-by machine-gunnings start getting the publicity they deserve (end sarcasm).

[templar]

The BATFE has regulations for how the receiver must be cut. Is that the case here, and the BATFE decided that the man could just use some zip ties on the receiver and get it working again? T

The STEN gun was a WWII British invention that used mostly stamped sheet metal and pipe (steel tubing) for ultra cheap and ultra fast war time production.

I ran across a Viet Minh made STEN gun copy in VietNam and can say that there is nothing in it that couldn't be fabricated with the most rudimentary of tools (except, maybe, the barrel). The receiver amounts to little more than a piece of muffler pipe with a few slots cut into it. It isn't even close to being precision or high tech, and it shoots plain old 9mm ammo. . It is probable that this guy just made a new receiver out of a piece of scrap pipe and screwed or soldered the thing together. Not a wise thing to do; Not wise at all.

[ol' hoghead]

You are quite right, my friend. From the front of the receiver to the muzzle is 18" with an additional 3/4" extension inside the receiver. The closed bolt protrudes 1/2' into the receiver portion-making the barrel actually 18 1/4".

[tacticalogic]

He's also very pro-law-as-written. It's his job.

I seem to recall him taking some liberties with the law as written involving some shipments of Canadian hemp seed.

[templar]

Most legal barrels I have seen measure 18 1/4 inches to be sure...

Part of the reason for an extra quarter or half inch is to allow re cutting the muzzle if you ding it. You can cut a bit off (the dented end) and still have a legal barrel.

[Beelzebubba]

My understanding with Randy Weaver's case is that the barrel was 1/8 of an inch too short. Is there an overall length that must be followed also? 28 inches or something like that?

---

Yes, Weaver was conscious about the barrel length, but was coerced by the feds into shortening the stock to fit a smaller shooter, below the minimum overall length. The length issue only applies to shoulder-fired weapons, not pistols.

[tacticalogic]

Sounds like a formula for fatigue induced catastrophic failure.

[glock rocks]

I was referring to my observation of his 2A stance.

I had't heard about Canadian hemp. What's that about?

[Beelzebubba]

You know, just between us, the risk of a $10,000 fine is beginning to look cheap compared to the market price for the few machine guns available to us peons.

(Just kidding, I know that he also loses his right to ever own guns again. But "you could pay a $10,000 fine" is not as fearsome as "is ti worth 10 years in jail?")

[tacticalogic]

He got a wild hair and ordered a bunch of sterilized hemp seed and hemp fiber shipments from Canada seized - all perfectly legal, and AFAIK perfectly harmless stuff. I think John Walters had a hand it it, too. At any rate, he got sued in federal court and lost.

[ol' hoghead]

I believe the BATFE reluctantly would have to consider this fine Le Mat revolver a "relic".

[Sir_Ed]

You do NOT need a Class III license to possess a machine gun, just to be a dealer and the SOT is $500, plus the FFL fee of $100+-.

To possess a machine gun or suppressor you need to pass a background check and pay a $200 tax to the NFA.

I used to be a CIII dealer and sold many MP5's, M-16's, Mac-10's etc.

Ed

[TERMINATTOR]

Nonsense! What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Molon Labe!

[tacticalogic]

FWIW, my original comment was more in response to her statements about federal law prohibiting private ownership of a machine gun, than the actual prosecution, although the comments themselves make me think she's got an agenda that goes past "law as written".

[glock rocks]

I hear ya. And my comment was more of an expression of dismay that as much of a breath of fresh air that AG Ashcroft is following the Waco baby burner, the second has been raped beyond recognition, and those 20,000+ infringements are still there.

[B4Ranch]

Maybe someday, we all will .........

[Redcoat LI]

Yeah,but a private citizen can own a fully functional machine-gun,if he,or she meets those criteria.

That U.S attorney seemed to be saying no private citizen could own one under any circumstances.

It would be nice if they put as much effort into getting illegal weapons out of the hands of people who actually commit crimes with them,instead of people who violate some technical aspect of an obscure,bureaucratic regulation.

Keep your powder dry.

[archy]

stock on a shotgun he sold was 3/8" to short you mean barrel? shotguns don't require a stock, do they?

Yes. Otherwise they're considered by the feds to be a pistol converted from a shoulder-stocked weapon, even if the barrels and overalll length still remains within the federal limits [18 inches for the barrells, 26 inches overall, hardly what most people think of as a *pistol.*

Note that it can be quite legal to have a shotgun with the barrels shortened to less than 18 inches and the stock removed [usually replaced with a pistol grip] if registered as *Any Other Weapon*, the licensing fee for an item is a $200 *making tax* if done by the owner, $5.00 if it's transferred readymade and transferred from a dealer or licensed manufacturer- and there are other weapons besides shorty shotguns that fit within the same AOW category. Note too that if such a short barrel shotgun then has a full buttstock readded to it, that changes its classification, and yet another *making tax* has to be paid on it, or it's again an illegal weapon.

Confusing? There are additional details that make it worse. That's the idea.

[supercat]

Yes. Otherwise they're considered by the feds to be a pistol converted from a shoulder-stocked weapon, even if the barrels and overalll length still remains within the federal limits [18 inches for the barrells, 26 inches overall, hardly what most people think of as a *pistol.*

Tactical shotguns with no shoulder stock are quite common, and based on retail price and availability I don't think there's anything special about their classification although they do tend to be rather bulky because of the 26" length requirement.

[archy]

I ran across a Viet Minh made STEN gun copy in VietNam and can say that there is nothing in it that couldn't be fabricated with the most rudimentary of tools (except, maybe, the barrel). The receiver amounts to little more than a piece of muffler pipe with a few slots cut into it. It isn't even close to being precision or high tech, and it shoots plain old 9mm ammo. . It is probable that this guy just made a new receiver out of a piece of scrap pipe and screwed or soldered the thing together. Not a wise thing to do; Not wise at all.

The Israeli Kibbutz I stayed at in 1973 still had 20 Stens in its armory for those pulling nighttime guard duty, along with the more generally favoured Uzi SMG and their Mauser K98 rifles, some in their original 8mm caliber, others rebarrelled to the 7,62 NATO cartridge- you had to be fairly careful to be sure you had the correct ammo for the rifles.

I was considered a bit unusual for carrying a Sten, but there were only two or three 25-round magazines each available for the Uzis, and I could carry all the loaded 32-round Sten magazines I wanted to carry, usually four in my jacket pockets plus three in a leftover WWII German MP40 magazine pouch on my belt, plus one in the gun. After I left the rural kibbutz for the big city of Haifa, I swapped for an Uzi, for reasons that were another story. But though I never needed to use the Sten, I have no doubt it would have served me just fine; I've run across the things a few times in other places, before and since.

A few years back, the BATF imperiously declared that if they could return full-auto function with hand tools in 8 hours time, that constituted their definition of *readily restorable* to full function. In response, a defense attorney submitted six hours of video of a 1884 Volvo being stripped for parts that were then turned into a working SMG in less than six hours time, then to be registered as a *1984 Volvo machinegun*. That the federal magistrate involved in the case himself drove a Volvo was a point that I think was known in advance to the gunsmith involved, and clearly made the point.

[glock rocks]

Confusing? There are additional details that make it worse. That's the idea.

Thanks. Yes, it's confusing, and yes, that's the idea.

[tacticalogic]

those 20,000+ infringements are still there.

Oh, but they aren't infringing on the RKBA, they "regulating commerce among the several states".

[archy]

Tactical shotguns with no shoulder stock are quite common, and based on retail price and availability I don't think there's anything special about their classification although they do tend to be rather bulky because of the 26" length requirement.

Correct- if they're manufactured that way. Those guns [the pistol-gripped Mossberg *Cruiser* is one of the most popular] are the source for many of the shorty AOW shotguns that carry the $5.00 AOW designition; had an identical shoulder stocked gun been used as the donor, the $200 fee applies.

That's not to say that thousands of pistol grips for full-length shotguns haven't been sold and used, though they're not much fun to use with magnum buckshot or slug loads. But the feds still insist that they *can* enforce the laws as they choose to interpret them.

Note too that there are traps in some various state laws as well, some of which list weapons legal under federal restrictions illegal under state laws, or otherwise restrict them. Indiana, for example, considers one of those pistol-gripped shotguns to be a *handgun.* Don't be caught with one in your vehicle unless you have an Indiana handgun carry permiit- though carry of a loaded shotgun in your vehicle is quite lawful there.