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Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'
Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

Posted on 03/19/2004 9:59:58 AM PST by presidio9

THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

He further claims that Mel Gibson "belongs to an ultra-conservative Catholic group which does not recognise the reforms of Vatican II, and celebrates Mass in Latin".

Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it.

Sadly, however, it will be welcomed and praised by many who ought to know better."

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: belfast; blessedmother; churchofrome; maccabees; marianyear; mary; moviereview; passionofthechrist; popejohnpaulii; thepassion; trinity; usefulidiots
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1 posted on 03/19/2004 9:59:58 AM PST by presidio9
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To: presidio9
I'm a staunch Protestant and thought that the movie was wonderful. This review presents a very tiny minority opinion.
2 posted on 03/19/2004 10:02:07 AM PST by DallasMike
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To: presidio9
Reminds me of the bit in Blazing Saddles:

Slim Pickens: 'We'll kill the first born son of every family!'

Harvey Korman: 'Too Jewish.'

3 posted on 03/19/2004 10:03:11 AM PST by atomicpossum (Fun pics in my profile)
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To: presidio9
Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it

Sorry to disappoint you Mr. Thompson, but we're Protestant evangelicals and we loved the film. In fact we're seeing it again this weekend.

The imagery blew me away and I'm looking forward to seeing it again, so I can look for things I missed on the first viewing.

4 posted on 03/19/2004 10:03:57 AM PST by dawn53
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To: presidio9
Can't you just feel the love in Northern Ireland?
5 posted on 03/19/2004 10:04:55 AM PST by johniegrad
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To: DallasMike
This review presents a very tiny minority opinion.

Note the source: A Protestant in Belfast.

That's not to take sides in that argument, but to remind you that Protestants in Belfast really hate Catholics. And, I'm sure, the feeling is mutual.

6 posted on 03/19/2004 10:05:34 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: johniegrad
Can't you just feel the love in Northern Ireland?

These two groups can't get past their differences to see just how much they have in common. Their energies would be so much better served hating religious philosophies that truely deserve it. I can think of one especially.

7 posted on 03/19/2004 10:07:21 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Imagine that. An Irish Protestant disliking a film made by a Catholic. Don't suppose there would be an underlying reason for the dislike would you?
8 posted on 03/19/2004 10:07:32 AM PST by ladtx ( "Remember your regiment and follow your officers." Captain Charles May, 2d Dragoons, 9 May 1846)
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To: presidio9
And Christmas is too Christian! /sarcasm
9 posted on 03/19/2004 10:08:12 AM PST by Pan_Yans Wife (Much of your pain is self-chosen. --- Kahlil Gibran)
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To: presidio9
It is but I've seen churches who went in groups go back and discuss that movie as well as where it departs FROM the Bible. It has helped clarify why many are not Catholic and could never turn to Catholicism since it is not in agreement with the Bible.
10 posted on 03/19/2004 10:09:28 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: presidio9
THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

ROFL! Must be a wee jealous of the success. I was raised a Fundie and found the movie powerful, thought-provoking and compelling. Sure, there was some Catholicism in the movie, but guess what! Mel Gibson is a Catholic!

Sheesh! You'd think by now some protestants would be over the "Catholics are not Christians" bologna.

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."

NEWSFLASH! Roman crucifixions were bad, bloody and terribly violent. Personally, I think every Christian of majority age should see what Christ endured.

11 posted on 03/19/2004 10:10:34 AM PST by Aracelis
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To: presidio9
On St. Pat's Day, I was talking to mother. And she mentioned our Protestant ancestors in Belfast, and that she wore green in honor of them.

I reminded her she should have worn orange. LOL
12 posted on 03/19/2004 10:10:34 AM PST by Pan_Yans Wife (Much of your pain is self-chosen. --- Kahlil Gibran)
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To: DallasMike
You're right...but they'll be here on this thread nonetheless. :-(
13 posted on 03/19/2004 10:11:00 AM PST by B Knotts (Salve!)
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To: presidio9
Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

Oh them devil worshipping Catlicks...!

14 posted on 03/19/2004 10:11:01 AM PST by freebilly
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To: dawn53

I suggest Mr. Thompson put up his own money and make a film telling the account of the crucifixion according to his evangelical protestant interpretation. It's easy to sit back and criticize the efforts of others. As an evangelical, I appreciated the film's beauty and power. I expected Mel Gibson to present it as a reflection of his faith. However, some people love to be critical, especially if it gets their name in the paper, as any criticism of The Passion of the Christ will most certainly do.
15 posted on 03/19/2004 10:11:44 AM PST by kittymyrib
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To: presidio9
As a Christian, I certainly have no affection for Rome's dogmas; and I did go in concerned. And some Mary-over-emphases did bother me a bit at first.

But then I asked myself whether, had I been unaware of the monstrous disservice done to Mary long after her death, would I have been equally troubled? The answer is "No." I would have just seen it as the director further humanizing the events and personalizing them by showing them from the perspective of one actual participant, the mother of Jesus' human nature: Mary.

So I'd say this issue is worth noting, worth discussing, and worth dismissing.

Dan
What Is Biblical Christianity?

16 posted on 03/19/2004 10:11:51 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: presidio9
As a born again Christian from a very Roman Catholic family I loved the movie. It makes me never want to sin again. The hatred the Protestants and Catholics have for each other in Belfast is sin - so its probably easier for them to keep on sinning if they don't have to see the penalty Christ paid for it.
17 posted on 03/19/2004 10:11:55 AM PST by 3dognight
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To: nmh
Yeah, that's a thoughful post.
18 posted on 03/19/2004 10:12:20 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: presidio9
I was wondering why these Evangelical Protestants seem so far departed from those I know, and then I realized they're in Belfast.
19 posted on 03/19/2004 10:13:00 AM PST by ahayes
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To: DallasMike
This review presents a very tiny minority opinion.

They claim to be a Fundamentalist Protestant group. I haven't heard of this particular group before but here is a link that discusses some of their clergy. The site is under development though so the text could change.

I receive all sorts of magazines in the post, but the most recent edition of the Ulster Bulwark, the magazine of the fundamentalist pressure group, the Evangelical Protestant Society, has really intrigued me. The January-March 2002 edition has left me wondering if there is a new alignment taking place within Protestant fundamentalism. The Ulster Bulwark announces that two new members have been appointed to the EPS Council, the organisation’s governing body. These are the Rev. Dr. Eric Culbertson, rector of Tullanisken and Clonoe parishes in Co Tyrone, and the Rev. Stephen Dickinson, minister of Glenarm and Cairnalbana Presbyterian Churches in Co. Antrim. What’s so special about these two appointments, you might ask, given that both these clergymen have well established reputations as very clear preachers of the Gospel message? I’ve personally heard both clerics speaking publicly, and both are very good communicators of their particular messages. But cast a little eye over some of the other members of the EPS Council, and some very interesting questions begin to arise as to what is supposedly happening within Protestant fundamentalist circles. The Ulster Bulwark lists two of the other EPS Council members as Mr. George Dawson, and Rev. David McConaghie. Again, you might ask - so what?

20 posted on 03/19/2004 10:13:08 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: nmh
Ahem. I'm not Catholic, I'm agnostic, but I would be quite interested in hearing where the Passion actually -deviates- from the Bible.

Yes, it -adds- to the Bible - it fills in details that the Bible doesn't comment on. But I found nothing in the movie that contradicted the biblical account, other than the sanhedrin meeting at night versus the morning, and if that's a reason for people to pick their denomination........ sheesh.

Qwinn
21 posted on 03/19/2004 10:13:47 AM PST by Qwinn
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To: nmh
It has helped clarify why many are not Catholic and could never turn to Catholicism since it is not in agreement with the Bible.

Thanks for sharing.

Catholics believe, that we are the only ones who actually are in agreement with the Bible, but that's another story. It all depends on your interpretation.

22 posted on 03/19/2004 10:13:52 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Yes, the gospel covered in the movie can be read in a quarter of an hour tops.

The rest is dramatic expression.

He's Catholic, influenced, by his own admission by catholic nonscriptural mystic writings.

23 posted on 03/19/2004 10:14:38 AM PST by Taiwan Bocks
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To: presidio9
Whenever I have a religious discussion with my hard core Protestant friends, they always seem fixated on
1. Purgatory
2. The legitimacy of the Pope
3. Veneration of Mary (and saints).

They do have some interesting points, and increased my knowledge of the differences causing the split.

24 posted on 03/19/2004 10:14:47 AM PST by Hacksaw (theocratic paleoconistic Confederate flag waving loyalty oath supporter)
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To: presidio9
About 5 percent of of Irish in Northern Ireland- both Protestant and Catholic- regularly attend church services. I doubt most even know what the differences in theology are between the two sects.
25 posted on 03/19/2004 10:16:31 AM PST by Burkeman1 ("I said the government can't help you. I didn't say it couldn't hurt you." Chief Wiggam)
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To: Taiwan Bocks
Yes, the gospel covered in the movie can be read in a quarter of an hour tops. The rest is dramatic expression.

Please tell Jesus that what He endured was simply, "dramatic expression".

26 posted on 03/19/2004 10:17:58 AM PST by Aracelis
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To: nmh
churches who went in groups go back and discuss that movie as well as where it departs FROM the Bible

I couldn't agree more with you. I was brought up a Roman Catholic, although now I'm a Southern Baptist. Yes, I saw all the "Catholic angles" in the movie, but it didn't bothered me a bit. On Sunday I'm having my adult Sunday school class discuss the movie and I intend to discuss what is or is not biblical in the movie. I have a list of discussion points and we will cover (hopefully) the whole range from Catholic to Fundamentalist. Most important, we will discuss which of the objections to the movie are significant and which are just nit picking.

27 posted on 03/19/2004 10:20:07 AM PST by Former Fetus (aren't we all?)
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To: Hacksaw
1. Purgatory

Protestants are demonstrably wrong on Purgatory. The idea of Purgatory stems from Maccaabees, which Luther removed from the Bible. However, as that book points out, were there no purgaroty, there would be no need to pray for the departed, as we are instructed to do numerous times in both the Old and New Testaments.

28 posted on 03/19/2004 10:20:40 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: Hacksaw
Aside from number two, I see these as largely misunderstanding.

Many Protestants think that Catholics must believe that Purgatory is a place, and that we believe it is some "third" place between Heaven and Hell, when in fact it would more rightly be considered only a "waiting room" on the way to Heaven, and can be thought of as more of a process than a place, as Cardinal Ratzinger has opined.

They also get the false impression that we worship Mary and/or the Saints. When the idea of intercessory prayer through Mary and the Saints is properly explained to them, while they may still disagree with the practice, they at least understand that it is not worship.

29 posted on 03/19/2004 10:22:52 AM PST by B Knotts (Salve!)
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To: presidio9
The only specifically catholic scene I noticed was when Veronica wiped the face of Jesus and his image remained on the cloth.

I don't believe that is found in the gospels or anywhere else in the 'Protestant' New Testament-- but I do recall it from my days in catholic school.



30 posted on 03/19/2004 10:24:20 AM PST by kailbo
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To: presidio9
However, as that book points out, were there no purgaroty, there would be no need to pray for the departed, as we are instructed to do numerous times in both the Old and New Testaments.

Can you post those references?

31 posted on 03/19/2004 10:26:51 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: presidio9
Protestants are demonstrably wrong on Purgatory. The idea of Purgatory stems from Maccaabees, which Luther removed from the Bible. However, as that book points out, were there no purgaroty, there would be no need to pray for the departed, as we are instructed to do numerous times in both the Old and New Testaments.

What their argument is is that by being crucified, Jesus paid the penalty that souls would otherwise have to spend in purgatory. The question I had to this would be the case of a man who led a completely evil life, but begged forgiveness at the end of it. The response is that the rewards for a good life would be granted in Heaven, not by less time waiting to get into Heaven. But that would then imply that some in Heaven outrank others.

32 posted on 03/19/2004 10:27:54 AM PST by Hacksaw (theocratic paleoconistic Confederate flag waving loyalty oath supporter)
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To: Hacksaw
2. The legitimacy of the Pope

If anything, the history of the various Protestant sects is a compelling case in support of the legitimacy of the Pope and the role of Sacred Tradition in Christianity. If we rely entirely on Sacred Scripture for guidance, we end up in a situations where moral chaos results from the inherent limitations of a document that is 2000 years old -- specifically with regard to moral questions that weren't addressed in Scripture because they weren't relevant at the time (abortion, embryonic stem cell research, cloning, etc.).

The fat that you even have multiple Protestant sects (and even additional divisions within them) ought to tell us something.

33 posted on 03/19/2004 10:28:10 AM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE north strong and free.)
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To: hopespringseternal
Can you post those references?

If you are questioning weather those referrences exist, you'd be better off looking for them yourself. You seem to be in need of a better acquaintance with the Bible.

34 posted on 03/19/2004 10:30:10 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: atomicpossum
O love that movie!
35 posted on 03/19/2004 10:31:14 AM PST by biblewonk (The only book worth reading, and reading, and reading.)
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To: presidio9
THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

What political axe-grinding morons. Figures, coming from Protestants in Belfast. Without the crucifixion and resurrection there IS no gospel.
36 posted on 03/19/2004 10:32:43 AM PST by aruanan
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To: presidio9
I don't recall any New Testament references of praying for the departed either.

Not a Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm certainly familiar with and have read through the New Testament on a number of occasions.
37 posted on 03/19/2004 10:33:01 AM PST by kailbo
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To: presidio9
i've had these discussions with some "well-meaning" Christian friends... as Protestants, my husband and i both favor this movie... our friends however were "jealous for Jesus because so much of the movie focused on Mary."

i am sad for them... they have no regard for Mary... do i think we should worship her? no... but she was obedient to a calling--bearing and raising the Son of God--a calling given to no one else in all of history... a calling that no one else will ever receive... i see nothing wrong with her having a place in this movie... after all, it was her son who was crucified... it was only right that she should be of some focus... she didn't take away from what Jesus did...
38 posted on 03/19/2004 10:33:53 AM PST by latina4dubya
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To: Burkeman1
"About 5 percent of of Irish in Northern Ireland- both Protestant and Catholic- regularly attend church services. I doubt most even know what the differences in theology are between the two sects."

True. And the conflict in Northern Ireland is fundamentally ethnic in nature, not religous.

39 posted on 03/19/2004 10:35:39 AM PST by Truthsayer20
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To: presidio9
If you are questioning weather those referrences exist, you'd be better off looking for them yourself. You seem to be in need of a better acquaintance with the Bible.

I asked a simple question. I did not question whether those references existed.

But I would like to thank you for your loving, patient Christian attitude and care in instructing your fellow brother in Christ. /sarcasm

40 posted on 03/19/2004 10:36:03 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: kailbo
It was not my intention to get into a theological discussion on this thread, so I'll be moving right along with the following question: Do you pray for the dead? Why?
41 posted on 03/19/2004 10:36:23 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Sorry, I saw the nun outfit she was wearing - insignificant. I don't see the idolatry that one would expect to see if it were centered on Mary ala the Pope's
blasphemous prayers that I've heard quoted. This centers on Christ. Rome should be glad Mel didn't present their doctrine of the Eucharist in all it's splendor. He'd have gone broke.
42 posted on 03/19/2004 10:36:43 AM PST by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: hopespringseternal
There's no player-hating going on from this end. I merely stress the importance understanding the reasons for why you do things. If you are praying for the dead, but you were not aware that there was Biblical precedence, you should probably look for it. Just a suggestion...
43 posted on 03/19/2004 10:38:38 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: latina4dubya
i am sad for them... they have no regard for Mary... do i think we should worship her? no

Please keep in mind that Catholics do not think that either.

44 posted on 03/19/2004 10:39:58 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
It does help the evangelical to go to the libary and thumb through some books on Medieval and Renaissance artwork before going to the movie--it helps to put some of the rawness and harshness of Gibson's crucifixion imagery into perspective in Catholic tradition. He took it right off the walls of the great cathedrals--
45 posted on 03/19/2004 10:41:12 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: presidio9
No, the dead's fate is sealed. Either they believed and accepted the truth or they rejected it and no amount of praying that I do can change that.

46 posted on 03/19/2004 10:41:32 AM PST by kailbo
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To: Havoc
ala the Pope's blasphemous prayers

Why do you feel that it is necessary to say something like this?

47 posted on 03/19/2004 10:41:34 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: BibChr
I would have just seen it as the director further humanizing the events and personalizing them by showing them from the perspective of one actual participant, the mother of Jesus' human nature: Mary.

In fact, a lot of the horrific impact was made intelligible to us through its effect on his mother. As far as some non-Catholics complaining about the concept of Mary being the mother of God-- though not divine, Mary's the only mother God ever had. As the Spirit-filled Elizabeth shouted upon the arrival at her home of the newly-pregnant Mary:
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

48 posted on 03/19/2004 10:42:16 AM PST by aruanan
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To: kailbo
No, the dead's fate is sealed. Either they believed and accepted the truth or they rejected it and no amount of praying that I do can change that.

So, as long as you are not praying for your departed loved ones, you are practicing your religion rationally. God Bless you for that.

49 posted on 03/19/2004 10:43:03 AM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
[ there would be no need to pray for the departed, as we are instructed to do numerous times in both the Old and New Testaments ]

As we are instructed to NOT DO... in OT and NT...

50 posted on 03/19/2004 10:46:09 AM PST by hosepipe
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