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BBC Report: Noah's Ark "...more credible version based on Babylonian sources."
BBC On Line ^ | Friday, 19 March, 2004 | Jeremy Bowen

Posted on 03/19/2004 10:44:41 AM PST by yankeedame

Last Updated: Friday, 19 March, 2004, 11:06 GMT

Did Noah really build an ark?

By Jeremy Bowen
Presenter, Noah's Ark

In the Bible, God tells Noah he has to build an ark and load a pair of every kind of animal before a great flood engulfs the world. It is widely regarded as a myth, but could it actually be true?

The story of Noah and his ark is one which sticks in the minds of children and never gets forgotten.

God warned Noah - the only good man left in a world full of corruption and violence - to prepare for a great flood. With his sons he built a great ark and the animals marched in two by two. By the time the rain started to fall, Noah was ready. The ark was a refuge until the waters went down, leaving Noah and his menagerie high and dry on Mount Ararat.

There are many problems with the story. If the story is taken literally, it would have taken 35 years for Noah and his family to load two of every animal on earth. And a flood that engulfed the Earth would have left a signature for geologists - yet none has been found.

But it is possible to build a much more credible version of the story based on a different reading of the Bible, on ancient Babylonian sources that predate the Book of Genesis, and on archaeology and science.

Broken apart

The traditional shape of Noah's Ark comes from the imaginations of 19th Century artists. It would have been about 450ft long, and experts say it would have broken apart.

Even if such a feat of marine engineering had been possible, there are about 30 million species of animals in the world. For so many creatures, a fleet of enormous arks would have been needed.

Geologists have also proved that there is not enough water in the world to cover all the continents, then or now.

Loading 30 million species of animal would have taken 35 years But just because the details of this familiar story do not add up, should we turn our backs on Noah and the ark?

We have to forget the idea that such a huge boat carrying all known animals existed, that it came to rest on Mount Ararat in modern-day Turkey, and that a flood covered the entire Earth.

In 1851, British archaeologists discovered hundreds of clay tablets while digging in ancient Babylon.

It was 20 years later that British Museum assistant George Smith became the first person to read them. He found the story of Gilgamesh, which bore strong similarities to that of Noah. He was visited by the great gods, who decided there would be a great deluge, told him to make a boat and carry in it the seed of all living things.

Further Iraqi texts were discovered, showing the story emerged in Mesopotamia. And in the 1930s conclusive evidence of a huge flood in the area about 5,000 years ago - the time of the story of Noah - was found.

Trading centres

What we know of the culture of what is now Iraq gives the first glimpse of the real-life historical figure behind the myth.

Noah might have been king of a city called Shuruppak. He would have had a kilt, a shaven head and eye make-up, like the figures portrayed in artworks created in what was then known as Sumeria.

The epic of Gilgamesh says Noah had silver and gold, then the currency of wealthy merchants, suggesting he was a businessman.

Could this story have provided the inspiration for the Book of Genesis 2,000 years later?

Instead of building an ark to survive a great flood, he is more likely to have built boats to trade goods like beer, grain and animals.

All the big trading centres of the era were on the River Euphrates and it was cheaper to move goods by water than land. Sumerians were able to build barges about 20ft in length, and marine archaeologists have not found remains or inscriptions of larger vessels.

But they believe they would have had the technology to have built a series of barges and used them like pontoons on which a much larger boat, or ark, could have been constructed.

Tropical storm

Parts of the Euphrates were only navigable at certain times of the year, when the waters were deep enough for large boats.

Noah was likely to have waited for the melt waters to arrive in June and July and, if these had combined with a tropical storm, the river could have flooded the Mesopotamian plain.

The currents in the area would not have taken him towards Mount Ararat, but out into the Persian Gulf. Life would have been difficult, but they could have survived on the animals and beer on board.

One Babylonian text suggests the ark came to rest on what is now the island of Bahrain, providing a very different yet plausible end to the adventure.

Could this story have provided the inspiration for the holy men who wrote the Book of Genesis 2,000 years later? When they first heard the story, how could they fail to recognise its moral power, that if humankind falls short of God's laws, there's a dreadful price to pay. Behind that moral message lies one of the world's greatest stories.

And behind that story we can just glimpse a real man, a real boat and a real adventure.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: archaeology; blacksea; blackseaflood; coracle; cuneiform; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; grandcanyon; greatflood; history; irvingfinkel; noah; noahsark; noahsflood; speculation
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1 posted on 03/19/2004 10:44:42 AM PST by yankeedame
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To: yankeedame
I like the story of the flood being when the Black Sea was formed.
2 posted on 03/19/2004 10:48:50 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: yankeedame
How 'bout them beer jugs, eh?!
3 posted on 03/19/2004 10:53:55 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: yankeedame
there are LOTS of stories in LOTS of cultures about a great flood. they only serve to affirm the biblical account.

ah, the bbc....ever reaching to discredit anything western, Christian or conservative.

4 posted on 03/19/2004 10:55:38 AM PST by wildwood
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To: Arkinsaw
I like the story of the flood being when the Black Sea was formed.

I agree with that as being a possible source of the flood story, especially when you consider that countless tribes and villages in that region would have been inundated when (if) the waters from the Mediterranean flooded over the natural barriers when the ice melt raised the sea level. It would have been an initial rush, and then a gradual rising until the water level stabilized. The survivors would migrate south into Sumeria, and there would be all kinds of tales about the event, including the one about the prescient guy who built a boat and saved his livestock.

Over thousands of years, the story gained elements, the notion that the flood was brought by God and that Noah rounded up all the animals in the world, etc. The Jews, a Semitic tribe originating in that region, carried the story with them when Abraham migrated west, changing the names and details to suit their own cultural needs.

5 posted on 03/19/2004 11:02:56 AM PST by Defiant (The bane of Spain is Moslems once again.)
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To: wildwood
there are LOTS of stories in LOTS of cultures about a great flood. they only serve to affirm the biblical account.

Which they do very nicely, since they are thousands of years older than the bible.

Which one copied which?
Blind faith or reason?

So9

6 posted on 03/19/2004 11:06:29 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Screwing the Inscrutable or is it Scruting the Inscrewable?)
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To: farmfriend; blam
A 'return the favor' ping!
7 posted on 03/19/2004 11:09:06 AM PST by TomServo ("He's my mentor..he taught me how to truly love a woman..from across the street..through a telescope)
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To: Servant of the 9
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think anyone "knows" how old the bible is.
8 posted on 03/19/2004 11:10:27 AM PST by ambrose ("I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it" - John F. al-Query)
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To: Servant of the 9
well, i dunno. i will ASK God when i GET there... you find out wherever YOU are going and don't let me know.
9 posted on 03/19/2004 11:10:40 AM PST by wildwood
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To: wildwood
You are right. It is amazing, though predictable, for non-believers to use the presence of many ancient legends of a worldwide flood to DISPROVE???? the bible account.

The fact that nearly all ancient cultures have flood legends - even if they disagree on the details - is PROOF to my mind that the flood took place.

Counter to this article, their is geological proof that a worldwide flood took place. The presence of fossils worldwide is evidence that animals died and were covered rapidly by sediment. The sedimentary layers themselves are proof.

Non-believers are incredibly creative in trying to justigy there non-belief, but they are not convincing.

10 posted on 03/19/2004 11:11:45 AM PST by keithtoo (W '04 - I'll pass on the ketchup-boy.)
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To: ambrose
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think anyone "knows" how old the bible is.

There is no indication that the written version is over 3,000 years old. What language and script would it have been written in? There was no Hebrew, there was no arabic script.

To have a large body of history passed orally for thousands of years without error in transcription or translation is preposterous. Epic stories get seriously distorted in a few hundred years. Oh, I forgot, God Did It. The universal answer for the non thinker.

So9

11 posted on 03/19/2004 11:16:23 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Screwing the Inscrutable or is it Scruting the Inscrewable?)
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To: yankeedame
There's a one hour documentary that covers this very story. This article nor the documentary mentions a flood story like this that is at least 500 years older than the Gilgamesh story.
12 posted on 03/19/2004 11:17:17 AM PST by blam
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To: yankeedame
...widely regarded as a myth... There are many problems with the story...

Just highlighting the different conclusions that come from a different world-view

13 posted on 03/19/2004 11:27:14 AM PST by pkjeff ( <><)
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To: Servant of the 9
The universal answer for the non thinker

Hmph! To have faith does not automatically mean one is devoid of all reason. Some of humanity's greatest thinkers were also people of faith.

14 posted on 03/19/2004 11:29:14 AM PST by Ignatz (Helping people be more like me since 1960)
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To: yankeedame
Leave it to the BBC (probably should rename themselves the BBS!!) to be ignorant of current thinking in Creation Science. Some of the stupidest arguments are still perpetrated in the name of bashing creationism.

"it would have taken 35 years for Noah and his family to load two of every animal on earth."

The text doesnt say that Noah and his family went out and loaded the animals ... perhaps the author of this nonsense should read the text ... (hint for author: try the Old Testament first)

"And a flood that engulfed the Earth would have left a signature for geologists - yet none has been found."

LOL! ... what would you expect to find if the whole world were covered in water. You would expect to find a whole bunch of dead things in the mud layers that eventually turned to rock. What do we find? A whole bunch of dead things in the rocks ...

"there are about 30 million species of animals in the world. For so many creatures, a fleet of enormous arks would have been needed."

How many species were there at the time of Noah? THAT is the question ... not how many there are today. And how many species can be generated from an example of each animal? We would need some kind of canine to make wolves, cocker spaniels, german shepards ...

"Geologists have also proved that there is not enough water in the world to cover all the continents, then or now."

And naturally geologists know exactly what the topology of the earth was long ago. Creation scientists believe that during and after the time of the flood, there was alot of volcanism. I.e. formation of mountains, formation of deep ocean trenches ... take away the highest mountatins and the deepest trenches and there is plenty of water to cover the earth.

"We have to forget the idea that such a huge boat carrying all known animals existed, that it came to rest on Mount Ararat in modern-day Turkey, and that a flood covered the entire Earth."

Yes, whatever you say.

"Could this story have provided the inspiration for the Book of Genesis 2,000 years later?"

Of course it could never be that the actual events were handed down orally and were spun into stories fitting each cultures needs. Christians believe that Moses took his oral and written sources, whatever those might have been, and his direct communication with the Almighty to produce a story reflecting the actual events.

"And behind that story we can just glimpse a real man, a real boat and a real adventure."

ZZZZzzzz....

"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child ..."

15 posted on 03/19/2004 11:32:31 AM PST by dartuser
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To: Servant of the 9
In other words, you don't "know"... you're using speculation and supposition, which is fine.. just wanted to be clear on that.
16 posted on 03/19/2004 11:33:23 AM PST by ambrose ("I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it" - John F. al-Query)
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To: yankeedame
NOTHING is beyond God's power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If He said there was a flood then there was a flood.

As for the Ark, the Bible says that God caused the animals to come to Noah Two by Two, Noah did not have to gather the animals at all. As for the number of animals God sent to the Ark, that number is a lot less than you would think.
Go to http://www.creationmoments.com/resources/article.asp?art_id=33 and here http://www.creationmoments.com/resources/article.asp?art_id=87 and here http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-116a.htm


To flood the world while preserving Noah and his family is nothing to the one who created the Universe. God is real and he cared enough for mankind to send His only Son to die for our sins so that we could have ever lasting life with Him!
17 posted on 03/19/2004 11:33:44 AM PST by Southron Patriot
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To: yankeedame
And it wasn't really clay from which Adam was made, but silly putty, right?
18 posted on 03/19/2004 11:42:09 AM PST by Old Professer
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To: ambrose
What's the copyright date?
19 posted on 03/19/2004 11:43:15 AM PST by Old Professer
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To: dartuser
How many species were there at the time of Noah? THAT is the question

Nay, "What is a species?"; now, that's the real question.

20 posted on 03/19/2004 11:45:15 AM PST by Old Professer
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To: Old Professer
To be or not to be... THAT is the question!
21 posted on 03/19/2004 11:47:25 AM PST by ambrose ("I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it" - John F. al-Query)
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To: Old Professer
What's the copyright date?

Hmmm... can't seem to find one.

When someone invents a time machine, wake me up. Until that time, BOTH evolutionists and creationists are speculating as to what occurred thousands of years ago.

22 posted on 03/19/2004 11:49:02 AM PST by ambrose ("I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it" - John F. al-Query)
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To: muawiyah
How 'bout them beer jugs, eh?!

The Bible relates that Noah had a problem with the fruit of the vine.

23 posted on 03/19/2004 11:51:27 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: yankeedame
Could this story have provided the inspiration for the holy men who wrote the Book of Genesis 2,000 years later?

No it couldn't have. This is just another example of the world trying to explain away the glory of God. It happened as it is stated in Genesis to Noah and is not some restated Babylonian myth.

24 posted on 03/19/2004 11:51:38 AM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: yankeedame

25 posted on 03/19/2004 11:52:04 AM PST by ErnBatavia (Gay marriage is for suckers...)
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To: yankeedame
There are many problems with the story.

The Deluge was the official beginning of modern property rights law and governmental bureaucracy--the recorder's office.

26 posted on 03/19/2004 11:54:28 AM PST by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts; proofs establish links)
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To: blam
Shoemaker Levy 9's 21 fragments augering into Jupiter pretty much ended the academics uniformity model and opened the books again on the ident of Catastrophism shaping planets.

Its to be noted that the Ancient Hebrews mark 2 mechanisms in their flood account.

1- Waters errupting from vaults [The Earths crustal region]
2-Then it rained afterwards.

Nasa/JPL has regressed some Near Earth orbitors..and hypothesised that they may be remnants of a Moon which broke apart from some tidal force.

Clube and Napier forward the theme of supercomet break up..over periods of 20,000yrs..the fragments simply hamering into worlds as they are vacumned up in gravametric cycles.
The 4 known streams of the Taurid complex..which the Earth transits thru for a full quarter of a year..have been regressed via computer to a singular ident.
Comet Encke part of this debrie stream.

Other candidates exist to cause the Earth to fault under gravametrics...Velikovsky Mythological detective study concerning a wandering Venus..and Mars.

Could their have been another moon..before the one we presently see today?
could there have been 2 or more of varied size?

The records of Emporer Yahu of China record an event where waters were pulled up into the sky..and towered above the mountains..then there was an electric discharge....and the waters collapsed to inundate China for over 100 yrs.

But ya..maybe Opium was the national passtime of the early Dynastic kings...and Confuscious's validation of the event.....some reflection after a pull on the Opium pipe : )

27 posted on 03/19/2004 11:57:48 AM PST by Light Speed
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To: Servant of the 9
To have a large body of history passed orally for thousands of years without error in transcription or translation is preposterous. Epic stories get seriously distorted in a few hundred years.

I don't speak Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Arabic, etc., and I don't have original copies of what was originally written to be included in the Bible, nor do I have copies of the oral histories that existed before people began to put them down in writing, and so I may not be able to back up everything in the Bible to the satisfaction of you and others like you. I do, however, have my faith and I see nothing disapproving that much of it didn't happen the way it was written.

Before you point out that we are reading a translation of translation when reading the Bible in English, or that it was written over several years by multiple authors, save it, I've heard it before. It maybe true, but in no way does it diminish the lessons to be learned.

28 posted on 03/19/2004 12:02:31 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: Servant of the 9
"If I knew Him, I'd be Him."

But I suspect that rather than its myriad details from various creation accounts, God's hope in us to do good is by the Biblical story's moral.

Please excuse another "non-thinker".

29 posted on 03/19/2004 12:04:47 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Servant of the 9
"Blind faith or reason?"

Perhaps "Faith or Blind Reason?"
30 posted on 03/19/2004 12:10:03 PM PST by TheDon (John Kerry, self proclaimed war criminal, Democratic Presidential nominee)
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To: yankeedame
The saddest part of the Noah's Ark story was when the Dallas Police shot the male gorilla.
31 posted on 03/19/2004 12:14:41 PM PST by HHFi
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To: Servant of the 9
All of these stories remained in the oral tradition for centuries before they were written down, so it's impossible to tell which is "oldest." I agree that the proliferation of stories about a flood provides evidence that there was a flood. Personally, I see no reason to not believe what the Bible says about it. The Bible has a better track record for truth than any other source I've ever come across. At least in my life.
32 posted on 03/19/2004 12:25:30 PM PST by twigs
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To: yankeedame
I've often wondered if maybe Noah took the DNA of all the creatures, not the creatures themselves.

Carolyn

33 posted on 03/19/2004 12:29:00 PM PST by CDHart
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To: yankeedame
According to the Bible the great flood happened about 1657 years after the world was created if you follow the lineage from Adam to Noah.

The interesting thing is Noah's father dies about 5 years before he finishes his ark and the flood happens, and Noah was 500 years old.
34 posted on 03/19/2004 12:29:27 PM PST by Chewbacca ("Turn off your machines! Walk off your jobs! Power to the People!" - The Ice Pirates)
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To: billbears
"It happened as it is stated in Genesis to Noah and is not some restated Babylonian myth".......

But, when the Bible tells us that the forty days of rain covered the entire earth in 15 cubits of water, and the ark landed on Mt. Ararat until the water receded, I've got a problem with literal interpretation.

Fifteen cubits is about 23 feet of water, and for that amount of water to cover all the earth, even Mt. Ararat- that existed before the flood, isn't plausible, unless it was some kind of special water that clings to slopes and mountains.

I guess that I'm just supposed to believe, but I can't. That's why there is tension between my born again Baptist grown son and myself, 'cause I just can't get into his life and beliefs.
35 posted on 03/19/2004 12:30:12 PM PST by aShepard
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To: CDHart
I've often wondered if maybe Noah took the DNA of all the creatures, not the creatures themselves.



No, but what he did take on the ark were infant animals, which included dinosaurs.
Which is easier and feed and care for, a baby elephant or a full grown one? More room also for extra animals.
36 posted on 03/19/2004 12:32:27 PM PST by Chewbacca ("Turn off your machines! Walk off your jobs! Power to the People!" - The Ice Pirates)
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To: yankeedame
First, there is strong evidence that the Book of Genesis was written by eye witnesses, including the sons of Noah. It clearly pre-dates the Epic of Gilgamesh...and is much more credible, given that the "Epic" is mythology, and Genesis 6-8 appear to be eye-witness accounts.

I am willing to provide evidence later to my assertion above.

37 posted on 03/19/2004 12:38:47 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: aShepard
Ask yourself this: According to historians there was a large land mass called Gondwanaland, or maybe Pangea. The Bible states that after the flood the world was changed. Geologists say that the mountain ranges of the world were formed by the earths seperate plates pushing against each other.

So, the question is "Were there any mountains before the flood?"

38 posted on 03/19/2004 12:39:03 PM PST by Chewbacca ("Turn off your machines! Walk off your jobs! Power to the People!" - The Ice Pirates)
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To: LiteKeeper
The book of Genesis was not written by eyewitnesses ... Moses wrote Genesis ... and he was not there ...

now ... perhaphs Moses had eyewitness SOURCES ...

THAT is a different issue ...
39 posted on 03/19/2004 12:46:35 PM PST by dartuser
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To: Chewbacca
Yes, there were mountains before the flood, the text affirms this ...

The waters covered the highest mountains ...

The real question ... How high were they back then ???

40 posted on 03/19/2004 12:47:59 PM PST by dartuser
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To: yankeedame
http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/index.htm

41 posted on 03/19/2004 12:48:59 PM PST by VaBthang4 (-He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps-)
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To: Chewbacca
Genesis 7:

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

So there were some kind of high hills before the flood, and a distinction was made between hills in 7-19 and mountains in 7-20.

42 posted on 03/19/2004 12:54:37 PM PST by aShepard
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To: billbears
The Babylonian story PREDATES Genesis and the Hebrews. Abram came from that culture. This in no way diminishes the glory of God.
43 posted on 03/19/2004 12:59:18 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree: Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: dartuser
I beg to differ. The most recent, conservative scholarship shows that there is extremely strong evidence that Moses edited the clay tablets created by "eye-witness" authors. This is NOT JEPD...this is partially based on the scholarship of P.J. Wiseman. And this in no way impinges on the plenary inspiration of the Scriptures. I would be happy to point you to the research, but right now I am at the office and I don't have the information in front of me.

By the way, this is the part of the doctoral dissertation on Genesis that I am currently working on. It is, admittedly, not a widely held position, but the evidence is very strong, and very exciting. It shifts the authenticity question to much earlier to the actual events recorded in it.

44 posted on 03/19/2004 1:05:55 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: dartuser
Just ran into one of my sources

THE FIRST BOOK OF MOSES AND THE 'TOLEDOTH' OF GENESIS

45 posted on 03/19/2004 1:07:47 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: aShepard
Considering that many of the HIGH mountains of today have evidence of sea life at their tops, I suspect the mountains before that time were rather low.

I believe that most of the HIGH mountains were created during the days the ark was floating around in the water. Earthquakes and large crustal movements wouldn't have impacted the ark as much as if it had come to rest and was being shaken while on dry land.
46 posted on 03/19/2004 1:18:48 PM PST by Chewbacca ("Turn off your machines! Walk off your jobs! Power to the People!" - The Ice Pirates)
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To: LiteKeeper
Perhaps we are in a linguistic impasse ... You seemed to assert that Genesis was written by an eyewitness, one of Noahs sons. And I am saying that is impossible ...

My assertions are as follows:

1. Moses wrote Genesis (well documented fact).
2. The events in Genesis predate Moses by ... well, a long time.
3. Therefore, Genesis was not written by eyewitnesses.

Now, if you are saying Moses may have used written sources that were actual eyewitness accounts ...

That I would agree with ... its possible ...
47 posted on 03/19/2004 1:21:17 PM PST by dartuser
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To: wildwood
Most of these type people do not realize the real God and what he can do.
If he can part the sea he can certainly build an ARK that will withstand anything.
My God cannot and will not fail. He will not let you down like man and all his theories.
48 posted on 03/19/2004 1:25:21 PM PST by gunnedah
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To: Chewbacca
..."I suspect the mountains before that time were rather low.".........


Ok, Maybe.

Or maybe the chisel slipped on the tablets and only recorded 23 feet of water. That's about 7 inches of rainfall per day, and surely God could unleash more than that.
49 posted on 03/19/2004 1:30:36 PM PST by aShepard
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To: yankeedame; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; A.J.Armitage; abner; adam_az; AdmSmith; Alas Babylon!; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.
50 posted on 03/19/2004 1:31:39 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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