Kerry hedges on 1971 KC meeting [for assassination plot]

Knight Ridder ^ | March 19, 2004 | SCOTT CANON

[nwrep]

KANSAS CITY - (KRT) - Confronted with 32-year-old FBI records, Sen. John Kerry's campaign all but conceded he attended a 1971 Kansas City meeting where a fellow anti-war veteran called for political assassinations.

Those active in Vietnam Veterans Against the War at the time stress that the suggestion for such a violent approach was angrily rejected. They say their memories do not include Kerry taking part in the radical discussion.

A statement Thursday by Kerry's camp said the Massachusetts Democrat did not recall the meeting, although FBI surveillance material and the group's archives clearly show that Kerry resigned from his national coordinator post at that November 1971 meeting.

In interviews last week, the senator's campaign insisted that the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee clearly remembered bolting from the group months earlier.

Responding to a request by The Kansas City Star that staffers question the candidate about the meeting, Kerry passed word March 12 that he "never, ever" attended a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War after a heated and public argument with the group's executive secretary in St. Louis in June 1971.

In a prepared statement late Thursday night, however, campaign spokesman David Wade, traveling with the candidate in Idaho, said: "John Kerry had no personal recollection of this meeting 33 years ago. John Kerry does recall the disagreements with elements of VVAW leadership...that led to his resignation.

"If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war."

Kerry's anti-war activities launched his political career but also have been used by opponents to portray him as a radical. One conservative tabloid has described the Kansas City meeting as a "dark plot."

By all accounts, Kerry stood as a voice for moderation in Vietnam Veterans Against the War. In fact, several records from the group stored at the Wisconsin State Historical Society show that he quit over philosophical differences in the middle of the four-day gathering in Kansas City.

The Kerry campaign on Friday released a 1972 FBI surveillance memo from its records that states a "review of subject's (Kerry's) file indicated there is nothing to associate him with any violence or violent-prone group. ..."

In the end, no violence has been attributed to the veterans' organization. Rather, historians view its so-called Dewey Canyon III demonstration - where veterans tossed their medals onto the Capitol steps - as a significant force in rejuvenating the anti-war movement.

The FBI teletypes based on informants' attendance at the meeting - with some sections and sources' names blacked out - appear to make no mention of any discussion of assassination plots, something sure to have caught the bureau's attention.

Gerald Nicosia, author of Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veterans Movement, obtained records that the FBI kept on Vietnam Veterans Against the War throughout much of the group's history. In poring over the records this week, Nicosia found reports stating that Kerry's resignation was accepted at the Kansas City meeting amid a heated confrontation with the group's executive secretary, Al Hubbard.

In a brief interview, Wade said last week's denial stemmed from Kerry's failure to remember the Kansas City meeting and the campaign's reliance on Home to War and two other books that all suggest he quit before November.

After new evidence emerged this week, however, the campaign spokesman said Kerry simply mistook his recollection of the Kansas City meeting for the one in St. Louis in June 1971 - when records show Kerry was re-elected to the organization's executive committee despite growing resentment toward his celebrity and his push for moderation.

Last week, John Hurley, an organizer of veteran volunteers for Kerry's presidential run, called two men who were quoted in The Star as recalling Kerry attending the Kansas City meeting. John Musgrave of Baldwin City, Kan., said Hurley called him twice and in the second conversation asked the disabled veteran to contact the newspaper reporter to say he had doubts about the memory.

"He said, `I'd like you to consider that before that article comes out call him and tell him you were wrong,' " said Musgrave, who has expressed disappointment with Kerry's position on issues regarding prisoners of war.

Hurley said Friday he believed last week Musgrave was simply mistaken.

"I asked him to be very sure of his recollection, not to change his recollection," Hurley said. "I would apologize to John Musgrave if he thought in any way I was pressuring him."

Another veteran, Randy Barnes of Kansas City, said Hurley had contacted him but did not prompt him to question his memory, although his certainty about the fact wavered after their conversation.

Minutes of the Kansas City meeting and internal Vietnam Veterans Against the War correspondence make clear that Kerry was active in the group - mostly as a strong draw on the lecture circuit of campuses and groups such as the Kansas City Rotary Club in September 1971 - in the months leading up to the November meeting. One FBI report suggests that despite his resignation from leadership, Kerry was willing to work for the group after November 1971. Three other national coordinators also resigned at the meeting.

None of the records show any indication of what then-Florida organizer Scott Camil dubbed a "domestic Phoenix Program" he was promoting to the Vietnam veterans group. Camil told The Star last week that his idea - modeled after a U.S. military effort to hollow out the leadership of Viet Cong sympathizers in South Vietnam - would have made targets of pro-war politicians to force the withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam.

"I'm sorry about those discussions now, but they did take place," Camil, a Kerry supporter, said in a telephone interview last week. Camil said then he did not think Kerry attended the Kansas City meeting and that he did not recall ever making his suggestion of violence in the presence of the future U.S. senator.

That topic is absent from the group's archives - perhaps reflecting that it never gained credibility beyond a few members or that the discussion would have been too damaging to record.

"Was John obligated to go to the police on this?" asked Nicosia, the author who described himself as a Kerry supporter. "I think if the thing ever got off the ground, Kerry would do something to stop it."

His book is mostly flattering to Vietnam Veterans Against the War and to Kerry, whom he portrays as struggling against radical elements for control of the group.

Interviews with 18 men who in the early 1970s were members of the group, most of them in leadership positions, offer varying accounts of whether the vague plot was discussed as a matter of organization business or merely the stuff of late-night chatter.

"In the business meeting, there was no consideration of violence," said Dave Collins, then the group's Oklahoma coordinator. "The recollection I had was some guys saying, `We ought to go and off some of those (people).' ...It was guys ticked off and talking big at midnight. No one in the group took any of it seriously."

Collins, like others, did not remember Kerry attending the Kansas City meeting, which moved from the University of Missouri-Kansas City campus to different city churches over four days. At least two others who at the time were active in Vietnam Veterans Against the War said they thought Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting, although they did not connect their recollections of him to the debate over violent strategies.

Barnes of Kansas City first said he remembered Kerry attending the meeting and then, after talking about it with members of the campaign staff, said he could not be sure whether the budding politician was there. He also recalled the 1971 discussion of Camil's idea as a significant disruption to the Kansas City meeting.

"We're sitting there waiting for the joke. And it became clear that (Camil) was somewhat serious about it, so serious that people began to discuss it," Barnes said. "Now when I say that, I don't mean real substance discussion about doing that, but along the lines of `that's what our government was doing to Vietnam.' Once people understood he (Camil) was serious, they told him he was crazy."

Joe Bangert traveled from Philadelphia to the meeting and said the idea of killing was contrary to a group whose officers often closed correspondence with lines such as "peace and love and nonviolent action."

"We were rebelling. We were decompressing from our time in Vietnam," Bangert said. "But we were incapable of doing violence."

---

[vbmoneyspender]

Sen. John Kerry's campaign all but conceded he attended a 1971 Kansas City meeting where a fellow anti-war veteran called for political assassinations.

Should we start calling him JWK (i.e. John Wilkes Kerry) instead of JFK.

[July 4th]

Welcome to the mainstream press, John Kerry VVAW story. We're happy to see you.

[Callahan]

Imagine George W. Bush saying he "can't recall" if he was at a meeting where the asassination of liberal U.S. senators was discussed. I wonder if the media would be this calm.

[ConservativeMan55]

Kerry's going down!

Bend over and grab your ankles Senator Kerry!

[DuncanWaring]

Whaddaya expect from a self-confessed war criminal?

[Callahan]

No no no. He voted against the assasination plot remember? He was just part of this traitorous outfit to further his political career.

[Perseverando]

Hillary, the peasants are calling for you to save them from the "crooked, lying Republicans."

[HarryCaul]

Hey Kerry, Dick Nixon called. He said to tell you "It's not the crime son, it's the coverup"

Whatever that might mean to you.

[ping jockey]

litle johnny flip flop got caught flippin' when he shoulda' been a'floppin'.

[ConservativeMan55]

LOL!

[gogipper]

He voted against the assassination plot, but that was before he voted for it !#???

[muawiyah]

How do we know he voted against the plot? For all anybody has admitted to, it might have been Kerry's own resolution.

[Jewels1091]

Confronted with 32-year-old FBI records How did they get these???????

[kitkat]

***A statement Thursday by Kerry's camp said the Massachusetts Democrat did not recall the meeting,...***
Yeah, suuuure! Any one of us would forget being at a meeting where it was argued that six Republic Senators should be assassinated. /Sarcasm

[randog]

The DNC must be in panic mode over this story. This story is blatant damage control--put a nice face on a their presidential candidate involved in a plot to assassinate sitting US Senators. "Just a bunch of guys sittin' round the table suckin' down brews and talkin' smack--yeah, that'll work, drunk guys just BS-in'." The fax machine at the DNC headquarters must be working overtime tonight as they get this story out to the LAT, NYT, ABCCBSNBCCNN....

[InvisibleChurch]

"But we were incapable of doing violence."

i thot kerry said the problem was that the vets couldn't stop committing atrocities in vietnam?

[vbmoneyspender]

He was just part of this traitorous outfit to further his political career.

Just another day of networking with would be assassins. I don't know about you, but it happens to me all the time that I intend meetings where political assassinations are discussed. I am sure that is a routine occurrence for most people .

[blanknoone]

Welcome to the mainstream indeed.

How exactly did we get from "never, ever" attending the meeting, to did not recall, to conceding he was there. No mention of the fact that his concession was direct reversal of his emphatic statement (ie LIE!)

At least it is in the mainstream, but its getting mainstream (you know, that river in france) press treatment.

[randog]

I don't know about you, but it happens to me all the time that I intend meetings where political assassinations are discussed. I am sure that is a routine occurrence for most people .

I was just thinking the same thing. Let's put this into perspective--Jacques Querry belonged to a group that thought political assassination was a viable political process. That's Jacques Querry, a guy that wants to become President of the United States.

[Jewels1091]

DUH, I wasn't thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FBI files = Hitlary!!!!!!

[dc-zoo]

This story is not quite to the boiling point yet but it sure is getting there.

[Hon]

There sure is a lot of "spinning" in this report. For instance:

"In the end, no violence has been attributed to the veterans' organization."

This may be technically true, but only because often times their members were arrested before they were able to undertake their violent plots. (Cf. "the Gainesville 8.")

Why is the media so eager to spin things for Kerry? Does Teresa pay their salaries or George Soros?

[Azzurri]

Confronted with 32-year-old FBI records

How did they get these???????

Easy, they called up Hillary and she put it on a floppy disk for them.

[Gkubly]

The DNC must be having fits about right now. Wouldn't this mean he was involved in a conspiracy to commit murder if he didn't alert law enforcement to this plot?

[Rocketman]

Imagine congressional hearings -- they daily listing in the papers of the proceedings --- and on everyone's lips "What did Kerry Know and when did he know it"?

[vbmoneyspender]

"In the end, no violence has been attributed to the veterans' organization."

If I recall my criminal law correctly, you don't need to actually commit a crime in order to be convicted of engaging in a conspriacy to carry out the crime. All you need is one overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy to commit the crime in order to be convicted of the conspiracy.

[isthisnickcool]

Anyone here ever sit around with a group of people you know and discussed MURDERING someone?

If you have then you would be the only person I've ran across that has.

I've heard about such people. People that want to get their agenda across. And to do so as a group they decide killing people is just fine. I've even seen what those types of people will do. On 9/11. They are called terrorists.

[Hon]

"After new evidence emerged this week, however, the campaign spokesman said Kerry simply mistook his recollection of the Kansas City meeting for the one in St. Louis in June 1971 - when records show Kerry was re-elected to the organization's executive committee despite growing resentment toward his celebrity and his push for moderation."

Hilarious. Only last week (in his Thursday Capitol Hill press conference) Kerry denied being in ST. LOUIS!

Kerry Lied In Press Conference Where He Refused To Apologize For Calling Republicans Liars
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1096436/posts

[randog]

Wouldn't this mean he was involved in a conspiracy to commit murder if he didn't alert law enforcement to this plot?

That'll be his defense--"I didn't alert law enforcement because I knew nothing of the plot, er, drunken ramblings of one of the members....who was behind on his dues, so he technically wasn't a member....you see.."

[ambrose]

not good. this is coming out too soon.

Hitlery is beginning to warm up in the bullpen.

[Hon]

"Barnes of Kansas City first said he remembered Kerry attending the meeting and then, after talking about it with members of the campaign staff, said he could not be sure whether the budding politician was there."

LOL!

[Hon]

"We were rebelling. We were decompressing from our time in Vietnam," Bangert said. "But we were incapable of doing violence."

Right. This is the same guy who said that just a few months before these same US soldiers had been gunning down children, raping and skinning women and crucifying Vietcong.

Joe Bangert's Testimony Before The Winter Soldiers Investigation [Bangert Is Kerry's Vet Organizer]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092905/posts

[mass55th]

Kerry is so transparent. One can see right through him. He manages to get a position as spokesman for the VVAW and appears extensively representing them and their beliefs. Because he's an opportunist, everything he does is programmed and staged in an attempt to build up a resumé for a future political career. Once his plans are cemented to run for Congress, and the demeanor of the VVAW becomes so radical as to pose a severe threat to that planned political career, he turns his back on his beloved organization and hits the road. He used the military, the VVAW, and his wives for his own personal gains. The guy's nothing but a manipulator and con artist.

[Kakaze]

" "If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war." "

Historical footnote........historical footnote?

You have to be kidding me, a historical footnote is President Washington having wooden teeth!

This is a discussion of the feasibility of assassination. The conspiracy to murder multiple senators is not just drunken musings or acid flashbacks, it's treason. Simply treason.

[nwrep]

not good. this is coming out too soon.

I know you are thinking strategy, but for me, it is not too soon to shred his credibility. There are certain things you cannot recover from, and this may well be one of them if it gets legs.

[steplock]

"They say their memories do not include Kerry taking part in the radical discussion. "

They must all be lawyers! ??

[Jackson Brown]

in the months leading up to the November meeting. One FBI report suggests that despite his resignation from leadership, Kerry was willing to work for the group after November 1971.

There are NYT and AP news articles and photos dated WELL after November 1971 at Wintersoldier.com where Kerry is identified and/or quoted as "the head of" or "the spokesman for" of VVAW...as late as 1973!

[Hon]

"They say their memories do not include Kerry taking part in the radical discussion. "

They must all be lawyers! ??

++++++

Worse. All the people they talked to either now work for Kerry or hope to soon.

[cyncooper]

Last week, John Hurley, an organizer of veteran volunteers for Kerry's presidential run, called two men who were quoted in The Star as recalling Kerry attending the Kansas City meeting. John Musgrave of Baldwin City, Kan., said Hurley called him twice and in the second conversation asked the disabled veteran to contact the newspaper reporter to say he had doubts about the memory.

"He said, `I'd like you to consider that before that article comes out call him and tell him you were wrong,' " said Musgrave, who has expressed disappointment with Kerry's position on issues regarding prisoners of war.

Hurley said Friday he believed last week Musgrave was simply mistaken.

"I asked him to be very sure of his recollection, not to change his recollection," Hurley said. "I would apologize to John Musgrave if he thought in any way I was pressuring him."

Musgrave has stood firm in his memory despite coming under obvious pressure to recant. And we all noticed Barnes' suddenly fading memory.

So Hurley "would" apologize, but doesn't, I guess.

[doug from upland]

I agree. Questioning him on this will lead to questioning on all kinds of things he does not want to be part of the discussion. He is on the defensive. Let's hope he stays there.

[miltonim]

br>
lol

[Hon]

John Musgrave of Baldwin City, Kan., said Hurley called him twice and in the second conversation asked the disabled veteran to contact the newspaper reporter to say he had doubts about the memory.

That's pretty outrageous, isn't it? I almost expect to see a Newsmax story based just on that line.

As you know Hurley is more than just an organizer for vets, he is the head of Veterans For Kerry. And here he is pressuring some disabled vet to lie for Kerry.

J "effin'" K disgusting! And it's clear that is what happened to Barnes and others.

[river rat]

It brings great joy, to watch this miserable bastard destroyed in front of the world - by his own words and actions...

The mighty fall hard, and fast..
The arrogant fall hard, fast and terminally.

Semper Fi

[GailA]

It needed a BARF alert on it.

[Smartass]

JEEEZZ, at this point in time, "Hanoi John", will lie,
cheat, steal, mislead, misquote, s***w you, me, your
mother, my mother, and yes his mother to be President!

[piasa]

In poring over the records this week, Nicosia found reports stating that Kerry's resignation was accepted at the Kansas City meeting

The ink's still wet, I bet...

[piasa]

"They say their memories do not include Kerry taking part in the radical discussion. "

Must be all those 'socialist lobotomies.'

[piasa]

Last week, John Hurley, an organizer of veteran volunteers for Kerry's presidential run, called two men who were quoted in The Star as recalling Kerry attending the Kansas City meeting. John Musgrave of Baldwin City, Kan., said Hurley called him twice and in the second conversation asked the disabled veteran to contact the newspaper reporter to say he had doubts about the memory.

"He said, `I'd like you to consider that before that article comes out call him and tell him you were wrong,' " said Musgrave, who has expressed disappointment with Kerry's position on issues regarding prisoners of war.

Hurley said Friday he believed last week Musgrave was simply mistaken.

"I asked him to be very sure of his recollection, not to change his recollection," Hurley said. "I would apologize to John Musgrave if he thought in any way I was pressuring him."

Another veteran, Randy Barnes of Kansas City, said Hurley had contacted him but did not prompt him to question his memory, although his certainty about the fact wavered after their conversation.

[greasepaint]

Clarification needed.
Ketchup allegedly resigned
leadership, or,
membership,
in VVAW, during this conference?