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The Threat from Lawyers is No Joke
Imprimis ^ | March, 2004 | Walter Olson

Posted on 03/23/2004 3:19:58 PM PST by Bigun

The Threat from Lawyers is No Joke

Many of us have wondered over the years what the difference is between satire and reality in the American legal system. I now have the answer: one year, 11 months, and ten days. Let me explain.

It was on August 3, 2000, that The Onion – America’s favorite satirical newspaper – published an article entitled, “Hershey’s Ordered to Pay Obese Americans $135 Billion.” This piece of comic fiction reported that the chocolate company had been sued by state attorneys general in a class action over the lack of warnings on its product, over its marketing of products to children, and over its having – most insidiously of all – artificially spiked its products with nuts and crisped rice to keep people addicted. The jury, by this satirical account, had responded by granting an enormous award. “This is a vindication for myself and all chocolate victims,” said one of the plaintiffs. In addition, the company was ordered to place a warning on all of its products reading: “The Surgeon General has determined that eating chocolate may lead to being really fat.”

Well, on July 24, 2002 – less than two years later – the wire services reported that Mr. Caesar Barber of the Bronx, New York, was filing a lawsuit against McDonald’s. (He was soon joined by various other plaintiffs suing Wendy’s, Burger King, and other fast food chains.) Mr. Barber had for years been wandering into McDonald’s restaurants, apparently under the impression that they served health food, and had been receiving hamburgers and French fries instead of celery stalks. He had no idea that you could get fat from such products, and sure enough he developed heart problems and other medical conditions associated with obesity.

Although many of us greeted this lawsuit with incredulity, it was taken quite seriously by some veterans of the tobacco litigation that had succeeded so gloriously a few years earlier. Here is a law professor from George Washington University, quoted in Time: “A fast food company like McDonald’s may not be responsible for the entire obesity epidemic. But let’s say they’re five percent responsible. Five percent of 117 billion dollars is still an enormous amount of money.” Northeastern University organized a conference on how to sue food makers that was attended by scores of lawyers, one of whom – a recent Rutgers law graduate – told Time: “It’s a very important and pressing issue and its outcome will be with us for years to come. I’m hoping to be able to build a career out of this issue.” Lawsuits against fast food restaurants were also taken seriously by the New York Times, which defended them as socially beneficial. Its general argument seemed to be, “We’re not saying these lawsuits should win, but what can they hurt?”

We used to know the answer to that question. We knew that they could hurt a lot.


The Older View

In Texas, a woman dentist who found out that her dentist husband was cheating on her ran him over in a Hilton parking lot. We used to see clearly that it would be wrong in such a case to sue Hilton hotels for negligent training of employees – thus for making it too easy for wives to run over their cheating husbands. But that’s what happened.

Speaking of parking lots, the proprietor of one in Framingham, Massachusetts, was sued after a thief broke into the lot, stole a car, drove off at high speed and crashed. Indeed, the family of the thief sued the lot owner for negligently making it too easy to steal a car from the lot. We used to know what was wrong with that, too.

A California man who passed out drunk on the railroad tracks sued the Union Pacific railroad because its engineer and conductor did not sound the train’s horn after seeing him – they were too busy trying to engage its emergency brakes. On the other coast, a woman who lay down on the subway tracks and was hit by a train – police concluded that she had been trying to kill herself – was awarded $14.1 million by a New York City jury. Not only did we once know that such lawsuits are wrong – once they would not have been imaginable.

Throughout most of American history, we understood quite clearly that litigation is for most people one of the most expensive, unpleasant things that ever happens to them in their lives. It is incredibly expensive, not only monetarily, but in the time and energy it absorbs. It is an assault on the reputation of at least one party, and often both parties, as charges are leveled back and forth. It is an assault on privacy, forcing those involved to answer questions under oath, involuntarily, about what they have done. It is a breach of the social peace. It is something that tends to corrupt the participants into doing things that they would not do otherwise. So while of course it was recognized that litigation is necessary sometimes as a last resort, it was seen as just that — a last resort. And if you accept the idea that litigation ought to be a last resort – and ought to be embarked on only in strong cases – you will want to arrange the rules of your legal system in a way to discourage weaker cases from going forward. We do not do this today. In fact, we have intentionally dismantled such rules.

In almost every country but the U.S., legal systems incorporate a “loser pays” principle. If you sue someone and lose, you can’t just walk away. You have to contribute something to making the victim of the lawsuit whole for what he has paid. We had that same principle in our legal system throughout much of American history, but it gradually died out. We also had procedural rules discouraging ill-conceived litigation. And we had rules of legal ethics prohibiting lawyers from stirring up litigation for their own benefit. But something changed around the 1960s and 1970s. It started in the world of ideas – in the universities and the law schools. Litigation came to be seen not as a necessary evil, but as a positive good. This view can be identified with the career of Ralph Nader, and with many of the professors who began to dominate elite law schools during that period.

The Newer View

According to this new view, litigation deters wrongful conduct: The more lawsuits that are filed, the more people will behave carefully. Litigation also came to be seen as a way to redistribute wealth from those who have it to those who need it. From this perspective, the more litigation there is, the more redistributive justice the courts can impose on society. And who can be against justice?

From being a last resort, then, litigation came to be seen as socially beneficial. And lawyers who advertise with billboards saying, “Sue someone and let’s see how much money I can get for you,” are seen not as sleazy but as public-spirited.

Given this new view of litigation, rules discouraging lawsuits ceased to make sense. This is why, starting in the 1960s and 1970s, we began changing the rules to make it easier to sue. We liberalized the rules of discovery – the rules governing how a person can demand information from his opponent. We opened the door to the “fishing expedition”: “I don’t know for sure whether you have done me any legal wrong, but please hand over the contents of your filing cabinets so that I can find out.” We made it much easier to organize class actions, by which most Americans are periodically dragged into lawsuits as plaintiffs without even knowing it. We dropped many of the rules against lawyers stirring up litigation. And we weakened traditional legal principles like “assumption of risk.” Here’s what that means: If you go to a baseball game and get conked on the head by a foul ball, the old courts would have said that you have no grounds to sue because everyone knows that foul balls happen at baseball games. This no longer makes sense, however, if the point of lawsuits is to encourage ball clubs to be careful about where they let their players send their foul balls – and to redistribute wealth. So out it went, at least in many courts.

All these developments were bound to give us more litigation, and sure enough they did. The share of America’s GNP that is devoted to litigation has tripled over 50 years. We spend two to three times more on it, in terms of percentage of GNP, as the other industrial democracies. The figure for how much is spent annually on liability insurance in the U.S. – a relatively easy thing to measure – is now $721 per citizen, which comes to over $2,800 per year for a family of four. So are we getting our money’s worth?

Everyone has heard about the medical malpractice crisis that is driving doctors out of high-risk fields like obstetrics and neurosurgery. The Harvard University study of New York hospitals that is cited by both sides in this controversy is very revealing. On the one hand – and this is the part that has been best advertised – it found that in the majority of cases where people are injured by negligent care in a hospital, they never sue. True enough. But the same study also found that in the majority of cases where people do sue, experienced reviewers could not identify any negligence. So you have a lot of negligence with no lawsuits and a lot of lawsuits with no negligence. Is the latter somehow supposed to balance out the former?

The Harvard study also found that a great many of the lawsuits filed where no negligence was identified were nonetheless successful in obtaining money. Even though we could go on at great length about the monetary costs of lawsuits, those costs are not, in the final analysis, of prime importance. Indeed, we are a very rich country and can afford to spend a small percent of our GNP on litigation, if only for the entertainment value. The non-monetary costs, however, should give us real pause. For instance, at the real heart of the medical malpractice crisis is the demoralization that spreads in a profession like medicine at the knowledge that being the best possible doctor will not save you from being sued. Most doctors, I think, would be willing to pay high insurance premiums if they could have confidence that the legal system works rationally in identifying the doctors who ought not to be practicing. Few of them, I believe, have that confidence today.

Think of the knots that people tie themselves into, attempting to keep from being sued. We’ve all seen crazy warning labels, and each of us has his favorite. There’s the one on an artificial fireplace log saying, “Caution: Risk of Fire”; the one on a bag of peanuts saying, “Warning: Contains Nuts”; and the one on a baby stroller saying, “Warning: Remove Child Before Folding.” My favorite is the warning on the cardboard windshield sunscreen that keeps the car from getting too hot in the summer: “Do not drive with sunshield in place.” This unhealthy level of caution infects many areas of our national life. Consider the unwillingness of most businesses today to give honest job references. That was one factor behind the recent case of the alleged killer nurse in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, who bounced from hospital to hospital, usually leaving under suspicion. The hospitals hadn’t even bothered calling each other, because they knew they wouldn’t get honest answers due to fears about lawsuits.

Effects on American Politics

This revolution in the legal system has begun to transform American politics. The part of this that gets the most press today is the litigation lobby – “big law,” if you will – which has become one of the most financially robust and effective lobbies in American politics. It is among the three or four most important financial bases of the Democratic Party, and also contributes to some Republicans. But this financial involvement in politics was just a prologue to a more disturbing trend: In recent years, litigation has evolved into a kind of substitute for politics.

Until quite recently, a group of Americans who saw the need for some sweeping new law would march in the streets, organize a letter-writing campaign to Congress or the state legislature, or try to replace congressmen or state legislators with candidates sympathetic to their cause. That was how politics was done. But today, politics is not necessary. If you want gun control or tighter control over tobacco or more environmental regulations, you can simply call 1-800-LAWSUIT. Operators will be standing by around the clock, and once you agree to give the lawyers a share of the monetary reward, you can lean back and watch them go to work.

Take tobacco. Despite years of agitation, Congress had not acted rapidly enough for anti-tobacco activists who wanted an increase in taxes on cigarettes and more regulation of advertising. The states were doing some of this, but not fast enough for activists. So what happened? We saw private lawyers flying around the country in their Lear jets, signing up state attorneys general and brokering a settlement that obtained $246 billion for state governments and $10 or 20 billion in fees for the lawyers. The settlement also resulted in the adoption of regulations that the elected branches of government had been unwilling to enact. We also got what amounted to a new tax on cigarettes – a tax increase unlike any other tax hike in that it did not originate in a legislature.

Soon we saw this same process of bypassing the political system being tried in other areas as well. American Lawyer magazine published an article on the origins of gun litigation, in which it interviewed the private lawyer (a multi-millionaire, needless to say) who had dreamed it up and flown around the country selling it to mayors. The article explained that it fit his thinking – that the plaintiff’s bar should act as a “de facto fourth branch of government – one that achieved regulation through litigation when legislation failed.” Richard “Dickie” Scruggs, the private lawyer who organized the tobacco litigation (and whose firm got an estimated one billion dollars for it), was profiled in Time, which reported as follows: “Ask Scruggs if trial lawyers are trying to run America, and he doesn’t bother to deny it: ‘Somebody’s got to do it.’”

What are the differences between this newly contrived fourth branch of government and the three branches that the founders established in the Constitution? The differences begin with the manner of selection. Those in the fourth branch don’t have to worry about those pesky things called elections – or even about getting confirmed by the Senate, as federal judges do. Nor do they have to worry about the safeguards of transparency that are built into our political system. Much of their activity takes place behind the scenes. Indeed, these cases nearly always are meant to be settled instead of tried, and the public is not admitted into the negotiation room. And if the public doesn’t like the results, there is, frankly, not much the public can do about it. This is highly ironic: The proclaimed goal of trial lawyers is to hold every profession and industry accountable for their actions, yet they have created a litigation-based policy-making process in which they themselves are almost entirely unaccountable.

Today there are increasing reports about how environmentalists are beginning to place their trust in global warming lawsuits against the auto industry, electric utilities and the like. Racial reparations litigation is beginning to absorb much of the energy that used to go into political agitation for civil rights. You see this occurring now in so many areas that William Greider, a leading left-wing journalist, has proposed in Rolling Stone – in the context of discussing Senator John Edwards of North Carolina – that trial lawyers have emerged as the natural leadership of the left in America today. He may be right.

After years of refusing to govern our trial lawyers, it seems they have decided to take it upon themselves to govern us. It is not too late to do something about it. But neither is this a problem that can be solved overnight by a quick fix such as tort reform legislation. As I said before, the ideas that underlie the new legal system and way of governing were born in the academy. This is where our judges and lawyers learned them. And now these ideas are being spread among the general public by the system itself. For instance, these lawsuits teach us again and again the principle that some distant institution with a lot of money is responsible for each individual’s problems. It is this distorted view of responsibility that makes thinkable today claims that were unthinkable a few short years ago. So the first step in turning things around, I would say, is to come to a real understanding of exactly what we did wrong in changing the rules of our legal system and handing the trial lawyers so much power.

Until we reverse this process, it will remain the rule that if you want to hurt someone in America, you may not be able to do it with impunity using a scalpel or a car. But you can do it with a lawsuit and no one will lay a glove on you.




TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: lawyers; litigation; ruleoflaw; threat; tortreform
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Boy is this guy Right On!
1 posted on 03/23/2004 3:19:58 PM PST by Bigun
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To: Bigun
As Ive gotten older Ive begun to grasp just exactly why the attorneys are the first to die in rebellions.
2 posted on 03/23/2004 3:23:13 PM PST by cripplecreek (Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live...at least a while)
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To: Bigun
95% of lawyers give the rest of us a bad name!

(I happen to put the blame first on the juries and judges. Remember, for every silly argument, there is a judge who allows it to proceed, and another attorney arguing against it.)
3 posted on 03/23/2004 3:34:56 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Bigun
A few comments:

1. The author has done a good job of confusing the problems of irresponsible LAWYERS, irresponsible PLAINTIFFS, and irresponsible JURIES. Irresponsible lawyers encourage people to sue companies. Irresponsible plaintiffs did something stupid and now want to be wealthy as a result. And irresponsible juries are willing to give away someone else's money, because, hey, companies are loaded, right?

2. The author is a little too glib with the "unelected judges are subjugating us" rhetoric. Federal judges aren't elected, but state judges are in lots of states. And in any lawsuit of the type he's discussing, it's the state judges who will define the law, even if it's in federal court.

3. We've long since reached the point of diminishing returns ("Warning: do not drink this bottle of bleach."). However, product liability lawsuits did a lot of good in the past. They used to make some insanely dangerous products, that nobody in their right mind would manufacture anymore.
4 posted on 03/23/2004 3:35:53 PM PST by SedVictaCatoni (The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a rabid socialist. Look it up.)
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To: Bigun
Down with rule by lawyers bump.
5 posted on 03/23/2004 3:38:55 PM PST by aculeus
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To: cripplecreek
Dick the butcher had it correct in Henry VI Part 2, act iv, scene ii.
6 posted on 03/23/2004 3:39:16 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: Bigun; All
Here's a little essay you might enjoy as well.

"When Absurdity Became Law"

7 posted on 03/23/2004 3:39:47 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: Beelzebubba
Good response. Also ask the critics who they voted for in the last contested judicial election and why. Politicians get plenty of heat but judges don't. And judges ARE politicians.
8 posted on 03/23/2004 3:40:47 PM PST by Spok
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To: Bigun
Thank you for posting this. I get this publication, and I passed it on to a pediatric surgeon with whom I work (I'm an RN in a NICU). One of her partners will have no malpractice insurance as of April 1.
9 posted on 03/23/2004 3:42:36 PM PST by DLfromthedesert
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To: Bigun
Could we have a class-action lawsuit against the unethical trial lawyers? Maybe that would stop them.
10 posted on 03/23/2004 3:44:13 PM PST by mongrel
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To: Bigun

11 posted on 03/23/2004 3:45:26 PM PST by Fiddlstix (This Space Available for Rent or Lease by the Day, Week, or Month. Reasonable Rates. Inquire within.)
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To: SpaceBar
A good sentiment. But I like this advice from Dick better:

But methinks he should stand in fear of fire,
being burnt i' the hand for stealing of sheep.

Good ol' fashioned justice.

12 posted on 03/23/2004 3:46:25 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: Beelzebubba
I am a collection attorney and will tell you that it starts with people. The problem is the growing number of people who believe that others should pay for every mistake that they themselves make. I hear excuses every day by these same people why they should not pay for services provided on their behalf. Its terrible, and your right, Judges and silly juries are mostly to blame. If Plaintiff lawyers did not know they had a friendly ear to bring the case before, they would never pursue it.
13 posted on 03/23/2004 3:49:51 PM PST by chris1
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To: Bigun
In Texas, a woman dentist who found out that her dentist husband was cheating on her ran him over in a Hilton parking lot. We used to see clearly that it would be wrong in such a case to sue Hilton hotels for negligent training of employees – thus for making it too easy for wives to run over their cheating husbands. But that’s what happened.

The author significantly misrepresented WHY the Hilton Hotel was sued because of the actions of its employees.

If the employees had called the police when Mrs. Harris physically attacked her husband's lover in the Hotel Lobby, the evening would have ended quite differently. In fact, it was the hotel's employee who literally placed Mrs. Harris behind the wheel of her automobile -- when she was clearly too upset to be driving.

I see fault with how Hilton's employees handled this explosive situation. I believe the hotel's management was correct in admitting negligence in the training of their employees.

14 posted on 03/23/2004 3:52:53 PM PST by i_dont_chat
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To: Beelzebubba
I happen to put the blame first on the juries and judges.

And voir dire makes it possible to select a jury worthy of blame, does it not?

15 posted on 03/23/2004 4:00:42 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: i_dont_chat
Hilton would have been sued if they had refused to let her drive.
16 posted on 03/23/2004 4:02:05 PM PST by Codeflier (Implement Loser Pays)
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To: Bigun
The article displays an embarrassing lack of understanding on the part of the author. I'm not going to address every misstatement in the article, but here are a couple of points to consider:

1. Most of the lawsuits he mentions went nowhere;

2. In a majority of states, contributory negligence is the rule. This means that if a plaintiff is found to be even 1% responsible for his damages, he/she gets nothing.

3. Recent rule changes have actually, in theory at least, made it more, not less, difficult for lawyers to bring frivolous lawsuits.

4. Broadened discovery rules make the litigation process more, not less, fair to all litigants. Shouldn't a defendant in a slip and fall case be able to discover whether the plaintiff had had treatment for a previous neck injury?

5. If you want to blame someone, blame judges (for not granting sanctions in more cases) and juries (for making ridiculous awards), not lawyers.

I know it's good sport to bash the legal profession, but I can honestly tell you after twenty years of law practice that 90% of lawyers work hard to hold themselves to a higher standard.

17 posted on 03/23/2004 4:07:51 PM PST by KevinB
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To: Bigun
Some points of mine, FWIW:
  1. Costs to industry and medicine go beyond settlements and awards. There is also the cost of defensive behavior designed to eliminate chances for suits. This is an every day expense and factors in all costs we, as consumers, pay.
  2. Litigation, the argument goes, is such an onerous burden that it will cause people to be more careful-- but the actual argument for that premise admits to the increases in cost that it inflicts on the system, which, of course, we all pay. Where do we draw the line of cost vs. benefit? Health care, it seems, has already gone far beyond that point...
  3. If it makes money, it will attract more of that activity. If lawsuits become profitable, an entire class will (and has) developed to do nothing else but sue....regardless of the merits of the case.
  4. How is paying a settlement on a meritless case any different from paying the Mafia protection money to keep from burning down your store?
Can we form a class-action suit against trial lawyers for the costs they've inflicted on us all?
18 posted on 03/23/2004 4:08:35 PM PST by atomicpossum (Fun pics in my profile)
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To: DLfromthedesert
All hail the NICU staff, longsuffering, dilligent, and appreciated only by we lucky few.
19 posted on 03/23/2004 4:10:36 PM PST by atomicpossum (Fun pics in my profile)
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To: cripplecreek
:>)
20 posted on 03/23/2004 4:12:42 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: Codeflier
My point is that the hotel employees should have called the police.

Almost any other person would have been taken away in handcuffs, after attacking a hotel guest. There's the negligence.

Mrs. Harris did not want to leave the hotel. The employees had to physically subdue her and then she was led outside, and directly placed behind the wheel.

This aspect was soft-pedalled in the trail. Why, I'm not sure. But I can see why the daughter claimed negligence against the Hilton Hotel in her father's death.

I don't think this was a good example to support the author's premise. That's all that I am saying.

21 posted on 03/23/2004 4:15:48 PM PST by i_dont_chat
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To: Bigun
Laws have been passed that primarly help lawyers.
Politicians make and pass the laws.
Politicians are lawyers
22 posted on 03/23/2004 4:16:44 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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To: mongrel
Could we have a class-action lawsuit against the unethical trial lawyers?

Of course we could but it would be tried in a fourm in which only lawyers speak the language!

Maybe that would stop them.

Given the above, I very much doubt it.

23 posted on 03/23/2004 4:21:19 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: philetus
It would be interesting to find out how many Freepers are lawyers. Here we are being blasted by people having the same core beliefs we do. I wonder how many people on this thread think that Ted Olsen and Mark Levin are just another couple of f***ing lawyers.
24 posted on 03/23/2004 4:27:22 PM PST by KevinB
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To: Oberon
And voir dire makes it possible to select a jury worthy of blame, does it not?

Voir dire allows one to make the best of the jury pool that he is given. Ever wonder why most of the nonsense we're hearing about (to wit: OJ) is happening in big cities?

25 posted on 03/23/2004 4:30:35 PM PST by KevinB
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To: KevinB
Most of the lawsuits he mentions went nowhere;

Yep! Nowhere but the courthouse and costs were incurred. I won't stop either until we make those responsible PAY dearly for frivilious filings.

In a majority of states, contributory negligence is the rule. This means that if a plaintiff is found to be even 1% responsible for his damages, he/she gets nothing.

Perhaps this is true in most states but certianly not ALL of them.

Recent rule changes have actually, in theory at least, made it more, not less, difficult for lawyers to bring frivolous lawsuits.

GOOD!!! Not a moment to soon either. Broadened discovery rules make the litigation process more, not less, fair to all litigants. Shouldn't a defendant in a slip and fall case be able to discover whether the plaintiff had had treatment for a previous neck injury

ABSOLUTELY!!! If you want to blame someone, blame judges (for not granting sanctions in more cases) and juries (for making ridiculous awards), not lawyers.

I'm sorry, but to most lay people the distinction between judges and lawyers gets lost in the shuffle.

I know it's good sport to bash the legal profession, but I can honestly tell you after twenty years of law practice that 90% of lawyers work hard to hold themselves to a higher standard.

Yep! And, as has been previously said here I believe, the other 10% give the rest of you a bad name.

26 posted on 03/23/2004 4:34:07 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: i_dont_chat
I STRONGLY diagree.
27 posted on 03/23/2004 4:36:18 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: DLfromthedesert
As a former premi (36 weeks, 3lb, highland
As the son of a physician who work in Medical IT, I have nothing but contempt for ambulance chasers.
28 posted on 03/23/2004 4:40:38 PM PST by rmlew (Peaceniks and isolationists are objectively pro-Terrorist)
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To: philetus
Lawyers Now Have Control of Nation Once Ruled by Law
29 posted on 03/23/2004 4:40:56 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: Bigun
Duly noted that you diagree. lol
30 posted on 03/23/2004 4:43:14 PM PST by i_dont_chat
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To: Morgan in Denver
Thought you'd be interested in following this thread...

Kindest Regards,

31 posted on 03/23/2004 4:45:29 PM PST by scoopscandal
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To: rmlew
Ditto to what you said. The peds surgeon that will be forced into retirement on April 1 unless some drastic measure is taken is a dedicated, brilliant, accomplished doctor, as are her 2 partners.

This would be a tragedy for all the babies and children who depend on her skills. This is the work God has ordained her to do.
32 posted on 03/23/2004 4:48:09 PM PST by DLfromthedesert
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To: Bigun
Yep! Nowhere but the courthouse and costs were incurred. I won't stop either until we make those responsible PAY dearly for frivilious filings.

The rules are in place. The judges need to enforce them.

Perhaps this is true in most states but certainly not ALL of them.

Correct, but those states use comparative negligence. This means that the parties bear the damages based on their own degree of negligence. If the defendant is negligent but the plaintiff is deemed to be equally negligent, the plaintiff only gets half. Seems fair to me.

I'm sorry, but to most lay people the distinction between judges and lawyers gets lost in the shuffle.

No surprise there - all forms of prejudice are based on ignorance.

And, as has been previously said here I believe, the other 10% give the rest of you a bad name.

On that we can agree.

33 posted on 03/23/2004 4:50:33 PM PST by KevinB
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To: Bigun
Maybe the Free Republic will be sued in class action for writing articles that are too long.

This cases unnecesary eye strain and neck problems looking at the computer screen. Thus, this contributes to medical problems that might have to be paid for by the state if someone on "public aid" were to read this article (on a public library computer, for example) and developed severe myopia and crooked neck.

Hmmmm.....

Could be a whole new world of class actions.
34 posted on 03/23/2004 4:56:40 PM PST by duckandcover ("Approp comments are never out of line")
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To: Bigun
What is going on in the civil arena is the expansion of the concept of "proximate cause". Where before we had a line where responsibility stopped. (ie the car thief who steals a car does not make the car owner responsible.)

I would support a "personal resonsibility rule". We could call it "the dumb sh*t rule" If you are that dumb you deserve it.

Additionally those who support looser pays need to realise we already have that. Court costs (depositions, experts, service, etc.) are automatically chargable to the loosing party. Insurance contracts almost universally contain a prevailing party attorney fee clause. The fact of life is that the loosing plaintiff is generally peniless. So even prevailing for such "loser pays" is pointless. Since the USA abolished debtor's prisons and indentured servitude there is no way to force collection.

Perhaps we can shut down the number of state law schools. Does ANY state need more than three law schools?

35 posted on 03/23/2004 4:57:34 PM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: i_dont_chat
ONLY in the minds of lawyers are employees of a hotel held responsible for the actions of a hotel guest!
36 posted on 03/23/2004 5:02:30 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: SpaceBar
actually it was said in a conspiracy to take over the governemnt.

For every lawyer with an absurd argument is a defending lawyer. Without lawyers there would have been no defenders to the 2nd amendment, they would have swept abolition of the 2nd amendment across the USA like a dust storm.

Enforcemnt of contracts in court is also part of what makes the USA's ecconomy so attractive.

The issue is the tort reform. for example we still need to punish "suits" who calculate death from products as a cost of doing business, ala the infamous pinto case where it was decided the pay-offs in PI cases was cheeper than fixing the exploding gas tank problem.

Proximate cause needs to be defined and limited. Thus we can re-awaken "intervening supervening criminal acts" to provide a line to liability. (ie the stolen car used in a crime, solen gun, liquid cocain hidden in the sodabottle, etc.)
37 posted on 03/23/2004 5:05:01 PM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Bigun
ONLY a jury can validate a total absurd arguement from a lawyer which ingnors an intervening criminal act.
38 posted on 03/23/2004 5:10:00 PM PST by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Very good. When I first started reading it, I thought it was true. Most of it was so believable. But then I read "Union carpenters and electricians likewise out of work when the housing industry collapsed due to a lack of materials soon followed. Democratic politicians who rose to challenge and calm their ire, found themselves ejected from union halls." That cannot be true! The union carpenters and electricians would have picketed their former bosses, and sued to get their jobs back. Nevermind that the contractors were out of business. They could be forced to go back into business, give the workers a hefty raise, and pay reparations for time lost. Why would the union blame democratic politicians? That's just crazy talk! I'm pretty sure the rest of this story is true though.
39 posted on 03/23/2004 5:14:23 PM PST by BykrBayb (FReepers make algore regret inventing the Internet)
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To: Bigun
You don't know this case.

Mrs. Harris was not a guest of the hotel. She was on the property to cause a disturbance.

She was there to confront her husband with his lover, and she physically attacked the other woman, tearing off her blouse, right there in the lobby of the hotel.

That should have been sufficient reason for the employees of the hotel to call the police. Sadly, they did not.

I realize you are trying to say that the suit against the hotel was not warranted, but you don't know the facts.

40 posted on 03/23/2004 5:18:02 PM PST by i_dont_chat
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To: i_dont_chat
Perfect example of the need for tort reform:

Witness to Harris murder loses job - hotel worker was fired day after testifying

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/845813/posts

41 posted on 03/23/2004 5:27:02 PM PST by i_dont_chat
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To: i_dont_chat
You don't know this case.

On THAT point you are absolutely correct but WHAT, pray tell, does Mrs Harris's behavior in the hotel lobby have to do with the killing of her husband?

If the "lady" Mrs Harris attacked was the one suing the hotel for failing to call the police it might make more sense but I don't think that was the case.

42 posted on 03/23/2004 5:34:58 PM PST by Bigun (IRSsucks@getridof it.com)
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To: KevinB
Voir dire allows one to make the best of the jury pool that he is given.

Yes, but what does best mean, exactly? "Most capable of critical and independent thought"? What lawyer, whether prosecutor or defense attorney, wants that?

43 posted on 03/23/2004 5:36:46 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: longtermmemmory
For every lawyer with an absurd argument is a defending lawyer. Without lawyers there would have been no defenders to the 2nd amendment, they would have swept abolition of the 2nd amendment across the USA like a dust storm.

Ever seen what a determined man, one bolt action rifle and 100 rounds can do ?

If it were not for lawyers, the second revolution would have already occurred.

44 posted on 03/23/2004 5:40:23 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you must; perform without fail that what you resolve.)
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To: i_dont_chat
That should have been sufficient reason for the employees of the hotel to call the police. Sadly, they did not.

It was her choice, and her choice alone, to use her car as a weapon and run over her husband. You cannot reasonably argue that the hotel employees put her in that car so she could kill her husband and, unless you can read minds, you cannot say whether or not they even recognized that possibility. The responsibility for that crime rests solely with her. If you cannot see that, then you are part of the problem.
45 posted on 03/23/2004 5:40:44 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: Beelzebubba
I happen to put the blame first on the juries and judges.

Nice lawyerly response. You guys are the JUDGES, you rig the game to make sure juries are stuffed with people who couldn't pour piss from a boot with the instructions on the heel, then claim innocent. Feh.
46 posted on 03/23/2004 5:43:23 PM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Centurion2000
If it were not for lawyers, the second revolution would have already occurred.

Finally, someone who understands what Shakespeare meant when he wrote "first thing let's kill all the lawyers." Words are mightier than the sword. The lawyers were the ones most able to stop the revolution so they needed to be eliminated first.

47 posted on 03/23/2004 5:49:08 PM PST by KevinB
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To: Oberon
Yes, but what does best mean, exactly? "Most capable of critical and independent thought"? What lawyer, whether prosecutor or defense attorney, wants that?

Neither does. Each side picks the jurors it thinks are inclined to be favorable to its position. That's the push and pull of the adversarial system. The theory is that a battle of the extremes will result in a neutral resolution. Of course, the theory can fail if the entire jury pool is predisposed to a certain position.

48 posted on 03/23/2004 5:55:47 PM PST by KevinB
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To: BykrBayb
I'm pretty sure the rest of this story is true though.

Actually, the whole thing is fiction. A piece of satire written by my father-in-law while listening to Rush one afternoon. I believe it was the lawsuit brought against McDonald's by the fat people that inspired him.

49 posted on 03/23/2004 6:14:22 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (`,,`,,Election '04...It's going to be a bumpy ride,,`,,`)
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To: i_dont_chat
I respectfully disagree.

It is not the employee's job to call the police if the *victim* does not request it (unless they are physically unable to make the request on their own behalf). If the victim (ie., the "girlfriend") did not ask for the police to be called, the hotel staff would have respected her privacy and NOT called the police.

As for being led away in handcuffs, this is pure speculation. Even if the police *had* been called, there is absolutely NO GUARANTEE - ZERO, ZIP, NONE - that police would have arrived in time. Talk to any police officer, and find out how this type of event ranks on the importance food chain. Low, my friend. Very low.

Even if they did arrive, and the victim did not press charges, Mrs. Harris would have walked.

Let's presume they did arrive in time, and the girlfriend pressed charges - you can not discount the possibility that she could have returned to the scene later on and attempted her stunt then. The most the hotel could do is issue a Criminal Trespass Warrant against her.

The employees brought her to her vehicle because it was her property, and she had a right (and an obligation) to remove it from their property. They physically ejected her from the property to protect themselves, their staff, and, most importantly, their guests.

I see NO NEGLIGENCE on the part of the employees. They are not mind readers or sooth sayers.

If we are to shift blame for Mr. Harris' death, let's look at everyone, then. How about the daughter, who lured her father out? What was that? She was tricked? Gee! She knew her mother better than the hotel staff but they supposedly should have "known" how to deal with the woman?

What about Mr. Harris, who left the safety of the building? He put himself out in the open. Not fair? He was married to the woman, but even he obviously didn't expect her to run him over. But the hotel staff was supposed to be "trained" to deal with this type of insanity?

Hey, I know! Let's blame the home-wrecking slut he was cavorting with. If she wasn't in bed with the guy, Mrs. Harris wouldn't have flipped out!

Blaming the employees, who had only the slightest possible interaction with this woman, for her actions, is just plain horsehockey.

Someone is looking for deep pockets and a convenient place to shift the blame.

I'm not going after you, IDC, on this - but on the premise that anyone else other than Mrs. Harris is responsible for her actions.

50 posted on 03/23/2004 6:26:36 PM PST by TheWriterInTexas (With God's Grace, All Things Are Possible)
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