Resist urge, gays told: "Walk away from homosexuality"

FOX11AZ ^ | 28 March 2004 | Stephanie Innes

[MegaSilver]

A Baptist preacher who tells gays and lesbians they can walk away from homosexuality inspired a colorful community protest north of Downtown Saturday.

As 65 people sat inside First Southern Baptist Church, 445 E. Speedway, to hear about how the Rev. Tim Wilkins "walked away" from being a homosexual, about 150 people picketed outside, many of them infuriated by what they said is a hateful and hurtful message that Wilkins couches in love.

Protesters like Cathy Busha, program director for Wingspan - Tucson's gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community center - say there's an unmistakable political agenda in Wilkins' seemingly religious workshop. If people like Wilkins can convince a majority of Americans that sexual orientation is a choice, then they can prevent equal civil rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, Busha said.

Organizers from First Southern Baptist Church, which sponsored the daylong conference, said they are merely presenting a non-mainstream view of homosexuality.

Wilkins says a desire for same-sex relationships is typically caused by problems in childhood such as abuse, and that by walking away and being obedient to God, gays and lesbians can find salvation. During the conference Wilkins urged former homosexuals to "come out of the closet" and tell others.

"There was a time when I would have been leading that protest," said Maggie Walter , a 46-year-old Phoenix resident and former lesbian rights activist who got up at 5 a.m. Saturday and drove to Tucson to hear Wilkins speak.

Walter brought her ex-girlfriend to the event. Though her ex-girlfriend isn't certain about whether she will try to abstain from homosexuality, Walter, a Christian, is celibate. She is not interested in dating men and has given up women.

"I found a freedom I've never felt before. You don't have to feel like there's a weight on you all the time, the way I always did," Walter said.

Such comments are upsetting to 18-year-old Ellery Bates, who decided to attend the event after a member of the church offered to pay his admission. Bates, wearing a wig and a dress, had been protesting outside.

"I came with an open mind, but it's just really sad to see all these people like this, oppressing their feelings," said Bates who is visiting Tucson from New York City. "This is teaching people that diversity is wrong."

The conference, "Walking People Out of Homosexuality," was led by Wilkins, who runs the North Carolina-based Cross Ministry - "Created for the Opposite Sex." Wilkins says people can feel freedom by looking to God to help them resist homosexuality. Wilkins says people do not have to become heterosexual - those who aren't attracted to the opposite sex should be celibate.

"My wife is the only lady I've ever been intimate with," said Wilkins, who was a practicing homosexual until age 22 and remained celibate until his wedding night when he was 39. "God honors the obedient."

Ron and Barbara Swallow, members of the worldwide Exodus International, a ministry that aims to "free" people from homosexuality, also spoke. The Swallows run their own ministry called Free Indeed in Albuquerque.

The Swallows have been married for 48 years but Barbara says she spent 16 of those years leading a double life as a lesbian before God helped her walk away. According to Barbara, her years as a lesbian were the result of becoming disconnected from being female during a painful childhood that included abuse.

"There are a lot of people in pain. Just go outside and see," Ron Swallow said.

Draped in rainbows - a universal sign of diversity - protesters, including several local clergy, dismissed Wilkins' theories as outdated religious rhetoric.

"Some people are created bisexual, gay and lesbian, and others are not,'' said the Rev. Lynn Hunter, the University of Arizona campus minister for the United Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ. "The church needs to be compassionate. What part of compassion do these people not get? They are pushing people into the closet."

As she held a sign, "Gay Bi God," 36-year-old Daphne Arango put her arm around 30-year-old Julie Johnston.

"This conversion stuff has been going on for a long time now, but right now it's picking up steam because of the proposed marriage amendment," said Arango, who was raised in a conservative Catholic home.

"I think this has always been political," said Johnston, who was raised in a conservative Christian home. "The main purpose is controlling what others do with their bodies."

Student Devin Horn, 21, believes religious arguments against homosexuality are too old-fashioned to endure.

"I don't believe in gay or straight. Sexuality is fluid," said Horn, who attended Wilkins' conference out of curiosity. "Maybe it's evolutionary. It's what I believe. Patriarchy and gender roles are just political and not real or true."

[MegaSilver]

"Some people are created bisexual, gay and lesbian, and others are not,'' said the Rev. Lynn Hunter, the University of Arizona campus minister for the United Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ. "The church needs to be compassionate. What part of compassion do these people not get? They are pushing people into the closet."

What part of "it is an abomination" does this "pastor" not get?

[thoughtomator]

What part of "it is an abomination" does this "pastor" not get?

I think this particular "pastor" you quoted is still working on "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."

[ClearCase_guy]

"This is teaching people that diversity is wrong."

Well, sure. We all know diversity is really really good. Which is why this nice fella probably wants to pass laws outlawing Christianity. His views are good (and should be forced on people whether they like it or not). But a religion which has lasted for 2000 years is just a vehicle of hate speech and deserves to be hounded by protesters.

[Lucky Dog]

Student Devin Horn, 21, believes religious arguments against homosexuality are too old-fashioned to endure..

Lev 20:13

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. KJV

Rom 1:25-27

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. KJV

Ps 119:142

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. KJV

I guess, that "everlasting truth" is also "old fashioned" to this crowd.

[ThirstyMan]

"The main purpose is controlling what others do with their bodies."

If what they do with their bodies is wrong and sinful in God's eyes, then why wouldn't a compassionate person want to help them get control over their wretched habit?
The motivation isn't control, it's about liberation, but "control" is all she sees because she is blinded by her own mind's desire.

[longtermmemmory]

If anyone can walk away, CHOOSE, to not be homosexual it is a threat to the homosexual movement. (ironic for those who would probably support pro-choice)

HRC and PFLAG and GLSEN are all wrapped up in homosexuality as a status, not a behavior. Knowledge about thier condition is a threat to the organizations existence. Imagine how succesful (or not) they would be if they had to argue it is a person's right to choose homosexual sex.

[familyop]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
abomination." (Leviticus 18:22, King James)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman,
both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
(Leviticus 20:13, King James)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind," (1 Corinthians 6:9, King James)

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for
even their women did change the natural use into that which
is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the
woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves
that recompence of their error which was meet"
(Romans 1:26-27, King James)

The NIV, in Deuteronomy 23:17, says, "No Israelite man or woman
is to become a shrine prostitute."

The KJV says in Deuteronomy 23:17, "There shall be no whore of
the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."
"Sodomite" is a word that I haven't found in the NIV.

A feminist lesbian named Virginia Mollenkott helped to write the
NIV. Here's some info on Mollenkott.

The New International Version - 1978
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/kjv/mouth4.htm#niv

Let's read something else Ms. Mollenkott had to say.

{2}Virginia Mollenkott wrote, in a letter to Christian
Century (March 7, 1984, p. 252), "I am beginning to
wonder whether indeed Christianity is patriarchal to its
very core. If so, count me out. Some of us may be forced
to leave Christianity in order to participate in Jesus'
discipleship of equals."

I saw that on the following book page.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter26.html
"Charity, Clarity, and Hope: The Controversy and the Cause of
Christ"
John Piper and Wayne Grudem

"Two New Organizations: Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
Christians for Biblical Equality"

(Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
A Response to Evangelical Feminism
Wayne Grudem and John Piper)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And that's the older NIV, by the way--not the new "gender
inclusive" version.

[Centurion2000]

If people like Wilkins can convince a majority of Americans that sexual orientation is a choice, then they can prevent equal civil rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, Busha said

You have equal civil rights you moron ... it's called being a U.S. citizen.

[Luircin]

What part of "it is an abomination" does this "pastor" not get? Well, unless my KJV is mistaken, the same term is used to describe eating shellfish, the eagle, the osprey, the ossifrage, most other birds, insects of all kinds, etc. etc. etc.; sacrificing an imperfect sheep; cross-dressing; offering a prostitute's wages in the Temple/Tabernacle; and remarrying the same woman after divorce.

Yes, some of these are terrible things, especially the prostitute and imperfect sheep bit. However, are we going to denounce someone for eating crab legs for dinner?

I tend not to think that the Levitical laws are something that bears a great deal of relevance to today's life, other than to show us what we were released from with the death of Christ Jesus. However, inasmuch as homosexuality is, or at least seems to be mentioned in Romans and 1 Corinthians, there's more to the story than just the Levitical laws.

[joesnuffy]

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:

neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Corinthians 6:11

[Luircin]

I guess that I have to give my rather tepid response to this article. Be warned, it's probably a vanity. My apologies in advance.

Wilkins says a desire for same-sex relationships is typically caused by problems in childhood such as abuse, and that by walking away and being obedient to God, gays and lesbians can find salvation. During the conference Wilkins urged former homosexuals to "come out of the closet" and tell others.

Hasn't yet worked for me, but at least I've found... or to be more specific, God knocked me on the head with my salvation rather recently.

"I came with an open mind, but it's just really sad to see all these people like this, oppressing their feelings," said Bates who is visiting Tucson from New York City. "This is teaching people that diversity is wrong."

Bah. Bah I say! How is forcing people to not only put up with, but accept and affirm behavior that they oppose "diversity"? It'd make just as much sense to affirm convicted felons on the grounds of "diversity."

The conference, "Walking People Out of Homosexuality," was led by Wilkins, who runs the North Carolina-based Cross Ministry - "Created for the Opposite Sex." Wilkins says people can feel freedom by looking to God to help them resist homosexuality. Wilkins says people do not have to become heterosexual - those who aren't attracted to the opposite sex should be celibate.

Though I'm seriously considering this choice, it's still extremely and excessively (To be alliterative) frustrating to be told not to pursue the people who I'm attracted to. I've been told that homosexual people were called to be celibate before (Wouldn't that mean that gay people who are Saved would make the BEST priests? After all the scandal in the Catholic Church, I guess not), and I guess that I'm still waffling on that point within myself.

"My wife is the only lady I've ever been intimate with," said Wilkins, who was a practicing homosexual until age 22 and remained celibate until his wedding night when he was 39. "God honors the obedient."

Could be true enough, though I've heard claims that are the opposite. Either it's different for everyone or some are just mistaken or lying, I guess.

Ron and Barbara Swallow, members of the worldwide Exodus International, a ministry that aims to "free" people from homosexuality, also spoke. The Swallows run their own ministry called Free Indeed in Albuquerque. Does anyone know the success statistics of this organization? I've looked and I haven't been able to find any outside corroboration to the claims made. The Swallows have been married for 48 years but Barbara says she spent 16 of those years leading a double life as a lesbian before God helped her walk away. According to Barbara, her years as a lesbian were the result of becoming disconnected from being female during a painful childhood that included abuse.

I shall resist giving the dirty details, but I'm wondering if that's my reason for the whole thing.

"There are a lot of people in pain. Just go outside and see," Ron Swallow said.

He's right. Draped in rainbows - a universal sign of diversity - protesters, including several local clergy, dismissed Wilkins' theories as outdated religious rhetoric.

GAH, why did the liberals and gay rights people have to appropriate a sign of God's promise in order to advance their agenda!?

"Some people are created bisexual, gay and lesbian, and others are not,'' said the Rev. Lynn Hunter, the University of Arizona campus minister for the United Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ. "The church needs to be compassionate. What part of compassion do these people not get? They are pushing people into the closet."

Actually, I heard a recent report (on Christian radio, no less), that said that homosexuality was neither something that one was born with nor something that one could control. While I agree that compassion is needed, it seems that people have VERY different ideas on what compassion means. I opt for the side that says, "Yes, you're a sinner, but we're all sinners here, so come and let God heal you."

As she held a sign, "Gay Bi God," 36-year-old Daphne Arango put her arm around 30-year-old Julie Johnston.

Pardon the immature response here. "Gay Bi God?" EWWWWWWWW!

"This conversion stuff has been going on for a long time now, but right now it's picking up steam because of the proposed marriage amendment," said Arango, who was raised in a conservative Catholic home.

This "conversion stuff" IS compassion. Whether it's the right thing to do or not can be debated, but their hearts are in the right place.

"I think this has always been political," said Johnston, who was raised in a conservative Christian home. "The main purpose is controlling what others do with their bodies."

Oh, you mean like abortion?

"I don't believe in gay or straight. Sexuality is fluid," said Horn, who attended Wilkins' conference out of curiosity. "Maybe it's evolutionary. It's what I believe. Patriarchy and gender roles are just political and not real or true." Yadda yadda yadda. He sounds just like The Indoctrinated. I wonder what professor gave him that idea.

[crz]

We are truly in the latter days. False prophets and anti-christs abound in plenty.

[SuziQ]

Such comments are upsetting to 18-year-old Ellery Bates, who decided to attend the event after a member of the church offered to pay his admission. Bates, wearing a wig and a dress, had been protesting outside.
"I came with an open mind, but it's just really sad to see all these people like this, oppressing their feelings," said Bates who is visiting Tucson from New York City. "This is teaching people that diversity is wrong."

Mr. Bates is upset because he has incorporated a totally corrupt definition of 'diversity'. Apparently he does not think that a diversity of IDEAS is a good thing, just diversity of fashion.

[SuziQ]

Draped in rainbows - a universal sign of diversity -

NO IT IS NOT!! I do not accept the rainbow as a sign of diversity! We need to take back rainbows, folks, as well as the language. Don't let homosexuals steal innocent cultural symbols for their own use!!

[Luircin]

NO IT IS NOT!! I do not accept the rainbow as a sign of diversity! We need to take back rainbows, folks, as well as the language. Don't let homosexuals steal innocent cultural symbols for their own use!! Just what I said, but you're right, it needs to be emphasised.

[EdReform]

Bump & Ping

What We Can Do To Help Defeat the "Gay" Agenda

Homosexual Agenda: Categorical Index of Links (Version 1.1)

Culture of Vice

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping.

Sure is busy for a weekend.

This is a great article - wonderful what people are doing in the cause of truth.

Anybody want to take apart some of the pro-"gay" comments - just for exercise? They're classic.

Let me know if anyone wants on/off this pinglist.

[EdReform]

Spitzer Study Just Published: Evidence Found for Effectiveness of Reorientation Therapy

The results of a study conducted by Dr. Robert L. Spitzer have just been published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403-417.

Spitzer's findings challenge the widely-held assumption that a homosexual orientation is "who one is" -- an intrinsic part of a person's identity that can never be changed.

The study has attracted particularly attention because its author, a prominent psychiatrist, is viewed as a historic champion of gay activism. Spitzer played a pivotal role in 1973 in removing homosexuality from the psychiatric manual of mental disorders...

Although examples of "complete" change in orientation were not common, the majority of participants did report change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year as a result of reparative therapy.

These results would seem to contradict the position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States, which claim there is no scientific basis for believing psychotherapy effective in addressing same-sex attraction. Yet Spitzer reports evidence of change in both sexes, although female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants...

Is reorientation therapy harmful? For the participants in our study, Spitzer notes, there was no evidence of harm. "To the contrary," he says, "they reported that it was helpful in a variety of ways beyond changing sexual orientation itself." And because his study found considerable benefit and no harm, Spitzer said, the American Psychiatric Association should stop applying a double standard in its discouragement of reorientation therapy, while actively encouraging gay-affirmative therapy to confirm and solidify a gay identity.

Furthermore, Spitzer wrote in his conclusion, "the mental health professionals should stop moving in the direction of banning therapy that has, as a goal, a change in sexual orientation. Many patients, provided with informed consent about the possibility that they will be disappointed if the therapy does not succeed, can make a rational choice to work toward developing their heterosexual potential and minimizing their unwanted homosexual attractions."

Is reorientation therapy chosen only by clients who are driven by guilt--that is, what's popularly known as "homophobia"? To the contrary, Spitzer concludes. In fact, "the ability to make such a choice should be considered fundamental to client autonomy and self-determination."

[Lester Moore]

"I don't believe in gay or straight. Sexuality is fluid," said Horn, who attended Wilkins' conference out of curiosity. "Maybe it's evolutionary. It's what I believe. Patriarchy and gender roles are just political and not real or true."

Just wait until Mr. Horn has children. He'll learn very quickly that his statement is utter BarbaraStreisand.

"Gender roles are just political" ROTFLMAO @ Mr. Horn. Just you wait.

I want to add that the Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ bunch is, in my experience, a very deceived, pro-faggot, apostate church. The stories I could tell...

[Lester Moore]

It's not the words they dispute, but rather the interpretation. Straight forward, literal reading is not what they take in. They filter the reading thru 'Higher Critism' and Calvinist Systematic Theology first.

[MegaSilver]

Of course, this will never be mentioned in the mainstream media.

[MegaSilver]

I tend not to think that the Levitical laws are something that bears a great deal of relevance to today's life, other than to show us what we were released from with the death of Christ Jesus.

While much of the Levitical laws appear to be ceremonial, a lot of them are actually good to follow (like not eating shellfish, for example).

[Guillermo]

These homofascists sure are tolerant of a differing view, eh?

Those who demand "tolerance" the loudest are (by far) the least tolerant among us.

[Guillermo]

Exactly.

Telling a homosexual that they do not have to live such a lifestyle IS compassion.

Telling them that they are "OK" and shoulc continue doing what they're doing is to look down on them and hate them.

[familyofman]

Could you also site the verses from Lev that deal with adultry. Adultry is a far more destructive force in our current world than homosexuality. Gays are what - at most 10% of the population. Adulteres are probably 50%+.

[cmak9]

Draped in rainbows - a universal sign of diversity -

NO IT IS NOT!! I do not accept the rainbow as a sign of diversity! We need to take back rainbows, folks, as well as the language. Don't let homosexuals steal innocent cultural symbols for their own use!!

Amen to that! Let's quit calling them "gay" as well. The rainbow symbolized God's promise not to destroy the earth by flood again. He may be regretting that decision ;-).

[Guillermo]

LOL newbie.

Take your "10% are gay" "statistic" to DU, where you belong

[familyofman]

"Take your "10% are gay" "statistic"..."

I used the 10% as a 'high-end' estimate since the actual % of the population that is gay ranges from about 1% - 10% (used a benefit of doubt adjustment). My estimate of 50% adulteres is probably also low (again - benefit of doubt), does that also belong over at DU? My real point is, adultery is a larger problem than gay, and by a large number - the percentages were used only to support that contention (no claim to accuracy on my part).

[Guillermo]

You won't be around too much longer, newbie.

I've been around here for over 6 years, and I've your type come and go.

Get your licks in while you can, because your posting days are soon coming to an end (at least under this screen name).

[roses of sharon]

As they say, "if tolerance is your highest virtue, then you have no others".

[MegaSilver]

Gays are what - at most 10% of the population.

At MOST, 2-5%, and I even doubt that statistic. Check your facts.

[familyofman]

"at most 10% of the population. At MOST, 2-5%, and I even doubt that statistic. Check your facts." (1) The number was not presented by itself - it was used in conjunction with another broad estimate - never meant as a fact. (2) Mathematically The statement <10% fits very well with the statement >2<5%. (3) The whole idea is - adultery is more prevalent than homosexuality. Can you find anthing false in that? (4) I will use the AT MOST 2-5% estimate in the future - it's not a statistic I have any direct knowledge of, or any great interest in.

[luckymom]

"I shall resist giving the dirty details, but I'm wondering if that's my reason for the whole thing."

I've got you in my prayers. You've been blessed by that "knock on the head" from God, haven't you?

[Luircin]

While much of the Levitical laws appear to be ceremonial, a lot of them are actually good to follow (like not eating shellfish, for example).

What's bad about shellfish?

[Luircin]

I've got you in my prayers. You've been blessed by that "knock on the head" from God, haven't you?

*Chuckles* Aye, and it was quite a knock too. And thank you for your prayers.

[Labyrinthos]

Walter, a Christian, is celibate. She is not interested in dating men and has given up women.

The article suggests that Walter with the help of God was able to walk away from homosexuality. Walter, however, is still a lesbian. She may be celibate, but she is still a lesbian, with or without God.

"My wife is the only lady I've ever been intimate with," said Wilkins, who was a practicing homosexual until age 22 and remained celibate until his wedding night when he was 39. "God honors the obedient."

Wilkins, in contrast, was never gay to begin with notwithstanding his adventures in queerdom, any more than a gay person is really straight just because he or she was married to a member of the opposite sex for many years.

[Lucky Dog]

Could you also site the verses from Lev that deal with adultry. Adultry is a far more destructive force in our current world than homosexuality. Gays are what - at most 10% of the population. Adulterers are probably 50%+.

I'll be glad to cite those verses. However, the relevant point seems to me to be that "adulterers" are not demanding (at least any that are not Hollywood or rock stars) that the rest of us condone their behavior and give societal approval to it. Sodomites are making such demands.

The implication is that adulterers may willing to "do the deed" but they apparently know it is wrong and do not demand that everyone else approve of it.

While we are scripturally admonished to be our "brother's keeper" in the sense of loving concern with truthful admonitions about sinful behavior and personal actions, I have found no need to support a law requiring everyone else to do so on a personal level. To support such a law, in my estimate, would be forcing my "religious views" on those unwilling to personally accept them, something that the Author of scripture has not done.

However, in this case, I resist vehemently the requirement that I be legally forced to accept some else's religious views (secularism in the case of "gay marriages"). Such forced acceptance is exactly what the homosexual community is attempting to accomplish through this "red herring" incorrectly called "gay marriage." Until the adulterers demand that I grant approval of their activities, I willing to let them face Divine judgment (in the absence of repentance) rather than man's legal criminal judgment.

[Lucky Dog]

Wilkins, in contrast, was never gay to begin with notwithstanding his adventures in queerdom, any more than a gay person is really straight just because he or she was married to a member of the opposite sex for many years.

Your statement is obviously an implication that "being gay" is an inherent characteristic independent of one's behavior. This logic is incredibly flawed as is its starting premise.

First, it appears that you are equating "being gay" with the popular term, "sexual orientation." As defined by the APA, sexual orientation is merely a "feeling" or an emotion. Merely "feeling" a certain way does not make anyone a homosexual or "gay" any more than "feeling" angry with someone makes you a murderer or feeling attracted to a woman (assuming you are a man) makes you a rapist.

Behavior is the issue. As cited in the examples above, if you never act on an attraction to a woman, you can never be a rapist. Similarly, if you never act on your feeling of anger toward some else, you can never be a murderer.

If one never acts on "feelings" of attraction to the same sex, one can never be a homosexual. Therefore, contrary to your assertion, Walter, however, is still a lesbian. She may be celibate, but she is still a lesbian, with or without God. she is not "lesbian" if she never acts on her feelings, i.e., remains celibate.

Have you any other more logically sound basis for your assertion?

[MegaSilver]

Excellent argument. I was planning to respond, but you said it perfectly.

[MegaSilver]

What's bad about shellfish?

Never eat anything that carries its house around with it. You don't know where it's been. :)

Okay, seriously... if improperly cooked or refridgerated, shellfish can pose a particularly nasty hazzard--from what I understand, even worse than, say, uncooked chicken or beef. Not a huge deterrent to most people, granted. Personally, I just can't stand to eat crustaceans (except for shrimp) and mollusks.

[Lucky Dog]

Excellent argument. I was planning to respond, but you said it perfectly.

Thanks... It will be interesting to see if this individual answers the challenge to provide "a more logical argument." I suspect there will be no answer to the challenge.

[Labyrinthos]

First, it appears that you are equating "being gay" with the popular term, "sexual orientation."

No, I am equating "being gay" with being a homosexual, which is defined as " as a person having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex," which is the same definition as "gay," at least according to my version of Webster.

If one never acts on "feelings" of attraction to the same sex, one can never be a homosexual.

The logical extension of your argument is that if one never acts on "feelings" of attraction to the opposite sex, one can never be a heterosexual.

[Melinator]

This is exactly what he has been taught. It's what my professors were "teaching" pupils in the mid 80s. He "believes" it with as much conviction as some believe in "Organized Religion". He will not be dissuaded from it because one or more of his College instructors tatooed it into his set of fundamental premises. As life and reality begin to show him wrong, he will go through the same tortuous mental gymnastics employed by "believers" everywhere: when reality contradicts your beliefs, shut your eyes and ears, and believe HARDER.

Patriarchy and gender roles are real and true, not simply assigned or random, for completely obvious and natural reasons.

[MegaSilver]

(1) The number was not presented by itself - it was used in conjunction with another broad estimate - never meant as a fact.

I'll give you that. Still, to me, "at most 10%" is setting a rather huge ceiling compared to what reality probably is.

(2) Mathematically The statement <10% fits very well with the statement >2<5%.

True. The high ceiling kind of threw me, so my apologies.

(3) The whole idea is - adultery is more prevalent than homosexuality. Can you find anthing false in that?

No, certainly not.

(4) I will use the AT MOST 2-5% estimate in the future - it's not a statistic I have any direct knowledge of, or any great interest in.

Admittedly, the numbers are a bit shaky. Bias in the surveys is one of many factors that sometimes leads to skewed results. The 10% estimate has been largely criticized, and the most reasonable controlled survey puts it at about 2-3% (for males, at least).

Once again, my apologies for my hastiness.

[Lucky Dog]

No, I am equating "being gay" with being a homosexual, which is defined as " as a person having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex," which is the same definition as "gay," at least according to my version of Webster.

The definition of a homosexual is one who engages in homosexual behavior. As was pointed out in my previous post, one can "feel" angry and not be a murderer or "feel" sexually attracted to woman and not be a rapist. Therefore, how one "feels" regarding an attraction to the same sex is irrelevant unless the individual "acts on" the feeling.

You are talking in circles unless, as I first postulated, you maintain that homosexuality is an "inherent," or "inborn," emotional characteristic that the individual possessing it is forced to act on.

Of course, by definition, any emotional characteristic that some one is forced to act on is a mental illness. Absent illness, mental or otherwise, all human behavior is a matter of will, i.e., the individual chooses to act in a certain way. Therefore, homosexual behavior is an act of will that is controllable, i.e., no one is forced to engage in homosexual behavior.

The logical extension of your argument is that if one never acts on "feelings" of attraction to the opposite sex, one can never be a heterosexual.

You are incorrect. Your postulation is not the logical extension of my argument.

Your attempted extrapolation of my argument implies that anyone who chooses not act on sexual "feelings" is asexual. This is simply not true. It is not actions, but inherent physical characteristics that define heterosexuality. With the exception of some individuals having serious birth defects, everyone is "heterosexual" in a physical sense.

Althougth exclusively heterosexual activities preclude identifying an individual as a "homosexual," it is not "heterosexual" actions that exclusively define the term as is the case with the term "gay." Not acting on sexual desire is the definition of celibacy.

[HostileTerritory]

No offense, but I found a pick of Tim Wilkins and my guess is homosexuals walked away from him before he walked away from homosexuality. :)

[familyofman]

"Once again, my apologies for my hastiness."

No problem - I was hasty in using numbers with no real basis to make a point that really didn't belong on the thread. It's just my overall concern with adultery that gets the best of me.

[Labyrinthos]

The definition of a homosexual is one who engages in homosexual behavior.

That's your definition, not the definition generally accepted in the psychobabble community. But what the hey, not everyone can be as smart as you.

You are talking in circles unless, as I first postulated, you maintain that homosexuality is an "inherent," or "inborn," emotional characteristic that the individual possessing it is forced to act on.

I do maintain theat homosexuality is inherent, inborn, and yes, genetic, but I never indicated that homosexuals are "forced" to act anymore than heterosexuals are "forced" to act. Straight and gay people are equally capable of being celebate, but that doesn't change the fact that they are straight or gay.

Your attempted extrapolation of my argument implies that anyone who chooses not act on sexual "feelings" is asexual.

That's the implication drawn from your argument not mine.

BTW, have you ever sat down and actually talked with a homosexual at length, not from a clinical standpoint or as part of an academic lecture or even small talk, but real conversation as a friend?. You might learn something.

[Lucky Dog]

That's your definition, not the definition generally accepted in the psychobabble community. But what the hey, not everyone can be as smart as you.

Given that my PhD work is in psychology, I guess that makes me part of the "psyhchobabble community" and somewhat qualified to speak to this issue. As with any other academic discipline, there are those within it who attempt to speak for everyone in that community and the "media" blindly accept such comments if they agree with a preconceived position, especially a "politically correct" one.

There are more than a few in the "psyhchobabble community" who disagree strongly with currently popular "media" conception of homosexuality as just another “life style choice” rather than a condition in need of treatment or a behavior in need of change for the individual’s well-being. Unfortunately, the "media" choose not make these viewpoints as well known as the "more correct" ones. The fact remains that a person whose sexual behavior is within society's accepted bounds is not, and should not be, classified as abnormal. However, if that behavior is disruptive to society and self-destructive, it should be proscribed by society. Therefore, the argument is, and always has been, what are a society’s accepted bounds of behavior and what is disruptive to society and self-destructive.

Behavior always was, and remains, the defining attribute of a person's ability to function and contribute successfully to society. Behaviors that are disruptive to society are limited by the "boundaries" a society erects. Homosexual behavior has generally been found to be disruptive society and destructive to the individual. As a case in point, consider the societal disruption imposed by the homosexual lobby’s current push for “marriage.”

The institution of marriage has never, to my knowledge, been defined by any society in recorded history as anything but a union between male and female. Yet, by the homosexual lobby’s position is that millennia of tradition and order should be “disrupted” to accommodate their desires.

I do maintain theat homosexuality is inherent, inborn, and yes, genetic, but I never indicated that homosexuals are "forced" to act anymore than heterosexuals are "forced" to act. Straight and gay people are equally capable of being celebate, but that doesn't change the fact that they are straight or gay.

There is absolutely no undisputed, scientific evidence to support your opinion. In fact, all of the current, reputable scientific research indicates just the opposite. Homosexual behavior is an individual choice, influenced or driven, perhaps, by child abuse or other psycho-trauma. Nonetheless, unless you are willing to classify homosexual behavior as a psychosis, it remains a societally disruptive behavioral choice just as murder or rape. As such, homosexual behavior no more deserves societal approval than any other disruptive behavior.

BTW, have you ever sat down and actually talked with a homosexual at length, not from a clinical standpoint or as part of an academic lecture or even small talk, but real conversation as a friend?. You might learn something.

Yes, I have talked at length with such people. There was nothing presented in any such conversation, either directly, or from a post conversation psycho-analytical standpoint, that indicates homosexual behavior is anything more than hedonistic, unrestrained self-gratification, and, perhaps, self-image loathing behavior. While I will not argue that such individuals need caring and concerned help as was cited in the original post on this thread, there is no basis that indicates that society should accord approval through recognition of “gay marriage” or even condone homosexual behavior.

This group wants the fact their behavior is “unnatural” in the sense that there is no “biological” reason for it dismissed. They also want the fact that this behavior has been condemned or discouraged throughout at lest 5,000 years of recorded history also ignored. The fact that their behavior is self-destructive, resulting a higher per capita suicide rate as well as a higher per capita terminal disease rate that any other activity including smoking is something they want everyone to ignore.