Iraqis Drag Four Corpses Through Streets

To: ThermoNuclearWarrior

We shouldn't "announce" anything. We shouldn't be huffing and puffing we should be quietly planning a very effective response and I would imagine that's exactly what the Marines are doing.

482 posted on 04/01/2004 9:00:19 AM PST by McGavin999 (Evil thrives when good men do nothing!)

To: Charles Henrickson

looks like all four were american and they were all men and they worked for a PMF called blackwater USA and were all former military. not exactly innocents working on the water and electric that was destroyed. horrible.

483 posted on 04/01/2004 11:24:23 AM PST by mojomoto (the greatest prize is yet to come)

"We shouldn't "announce" anything. We shouldn't be huffing and puffing we should be quietly planning a very effective response and I would imagine that's exactly what the Marines are doing."

We shouldn't announce exactly what we are going to do and that's not what I was trying to say. I just meant they should speak out to let us know that they are doing something about this tragedy, which they already have done. Americans need to know their is going to be vengeance for attacks this brutal. Whatever action they take should be big enough for the Arab and Muslim world to see and hear about. Now that we have let the Arabs and other Muslim dominated Nations see Iraqis mutilating Americans on TV in a city we are suppose to control, we should strike back hard enough to send a message that it doesn't pay to behave like that.

Our Military made a huge mistake to just sat back and do nothing while this happened, especially when it's being filmed for all the Arab world to see uncut. It will be used as terrorist propaganda throughout the Muslim world from now on. There isn't any logic in letting people mutilate Americans like this for hours and hours without doing anything. It will look like a cowardly act in the eyes of the Muslim world and that will encourage more attacks. I would like to hear someone explain the logic in letting an American citizen get torn to pieces for hours in a city we control without doing a damn thing.

No matter how strong we hit back it won't make up for the mistake of not acting to save the bodies of these men in the first place. Now the families probably won't have a body to bury because it was likely shredded up and fed to dogs. Even though we could have easily stopped that, since it didn't happen until hours and hours after the initial attack. We should have stopped the mutilation and then went ahead with whatever we have planed next. I think the person who decided not to act needs to look at his decision and realize how stupid it was.

There is reason to talk tough for the benefit of the Muslim world while taking action that's even tougher. People in places other than Iraq need to see what happens when you do this to Americans. It's a terrible idea to allow the Muslim world to remember seeing the mutilated Americans without showing them that something extreme happens in return when you do something like that. In my opinion it's crucial to show that. Not only to the Iraqis, but to the entire Muslim world.

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484 posted on 04/01/2004 12:18:00 PM PST by ThermoNuclearWarrior (~ Vote for George W. Bush for reelection in November! ~)

>> you would just cower in your living room. Great!

I reported this for abuse.

485 posted on 04/01/2004 1:20:09 PM PST by T'wit ("I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president!" -- Hillary)

486 posted on 04/01/2004 1:27:00 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)

Abuse?

What are you talking about?

487 posted on 04/01/2004 1:40:06 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)

To: ThermoNuclearWarrior

---It's a terrible idea to allow the Muslim world to remember seeing the mutilated Americans without showing them that something extreme happens in return when you do something like that. In my opinion it's crucial to show that. Not only to the Iraqis, but to the entire Muslim world.---

Hanging about 30 of them should do the trick. Make sure they show up on TV twice...

488 posted on 04/01/2004 1:50:38 PM PST by claudiustg (Go Sharon! Go Bush!)

To: MindBender26

That's exactly what we need to do and fast.

489 posted on 04/01/2004 2:15:56 PM PST by hershey

Sounds good. They'll remember what they did and what happened to them.

490 posted on 04/01/2004 2:17:29 PM PST by hershey

To: My Dog Likes Me

What they're saying is that in the 'new' downsized army, we have to coordinate military activities, protection, with civilian protective patrols...which is what the four dead were. Obviously they needed a bunch of marines riding shotgun. Next time, that's what will happen.

491 posted on 04/01/2004 2:21:11 PM PST by hershey

Since the dead were helping to get water and electricity up and running, we should destroy power grids and water supplies to Fallujah, then starve them until they give up the perpetrators and celebrants. Then level the place.

492 posted on 04/01/2004 2:24:24 PM PST by hershey

I Personally I would encircle the town, pull a "Ghengis Khan" and be done with it...These ghouls will NEVER BE "Civilized"! God Bless America!

Those Iraqi murderers remind of some another country I was reading about recently. It seems that other country makes an industry of cutting up babies for profit and flushing their remains down toilets. Furthermore the whole industry is protected and promoted by the government. Man! It is incredible to contemplate the barbarism of some of those heathen lands.

493 posted on 04/01/2004 3:32:10 PM PST by findingtruth

Gee, I am sorry if I offended you with my suggestion. I do believe it would be easier to establish a perimeter on bare ground, outside of the city limits where anyone approaching is visiable from some distance. At that point, you eliminate the everyday type traffic of vehicles and people which may or may not be hostile.

Naturally, at the perimeter I suggested any traffic would be considered hostile and would be destroyed before it would be a serious concern to our beloved troops.

494 posted on 04/01/2004 4:18:49 PM PST by Brad C.

495 posted on 04/02/2004 12:09:00 PM PST by Cindy

i dont think destroying whatever water facilities they have and leveling the whole town would be the best response since we are there to help them. the perps of this should be brought to justice, but we shouldnt punish the whole town. that just doesnt work. any military person knows that. not to mention it is inhumane, childish and unamerican to destroy something cause your mad at someone, then build it again trying to show them how nice you are, and then destroy it again when something goes wrong. that is counterproductive and wont work. this is a horrible example of how war can go wrong, but those men knew what they were doing and they knew the people they were facing, and i like to think they faced the horrible atrocity that awaited them in fallujah with honor and bravery - after all it isnt going to be an easy slog in iraq, and we are there to help them, not destroy them. right?

496 posted on 04/02/2004 1:53:14 PM PST by mojomoto (the greatest prize is yet to come)

You're right. We're in Iraq to help them, but this isn't an exercise in turning the other cheek, etc.. If we simply let it go and repair the electricity, water, etc., despite continued attacks...and there will be more bombings and atrocities because they know this gets America's attention...and that it might bring down Bush, or drive us from Iraq(as in Somalia), then we merely invite more horror.

The town's population isn't Christian, nor do they read the Bible. They won't take forebearance on our part as anything but weakness. The one thing they understand is force, unfortunately. So we have to take a practical view of the situation and decide what outcome we desire, which is of course, pacification. It isn't childish or unAmerican or inhumane to take practical measures to bring about peace. Presumably the marines are saying to those sheiks in Fallujah, "Look, we can be your best friend, or we can be your worst enemy. You choose. This is your last chance." Then give them 48 hours to hand over those who committed these atrocities. If they don't cooperate, then we cut off the electricity and water for a few hours every night,(it gets hot and uncomfortable), put a cordon around the town and don't let anyone in or out.

We don't kill innocent women or children, but if you've seen those pictures, it was teenagers who burned, mutilated those corpses, dragged them through town and hung them from that bridge. Their pictures will be at every military checkpoint, and they should be caught and dealt with in a public way...to deter copycat behavior. I don't think we should kill these kids, but we should deal with them in a way that makes such behavior unimaginable. Putting them in an Iraqi jail is problematical, however. Once June arrives and we hand over power to the Iraqis, their govt. could set them free and hold a big parade just to rub our noses in it.

Iraq's problem is tribal govt. (Forget the fact that some are crazed, medieval minded religious fascists). They don't think of themselves primarily as Iraqis. They think of themselves as Shiites or Sunnis or Bathists, and emotions rule, not logic. Democracy is a very sophisticated concept. You have to agree to yield power, albeit temporarily, to whomever wins elections. Sometimes this is messy. Bad guys can steal votes, win elections, and take power. You can either go with the flow until the next election, or hold a revolution and seize power.(The way South America and Mexico conducted democracy for most of the last 100 years.)

We're transplanting democracy to a part of the world that needs it desperately. It's the only way to bring these people into the modern era, where they can enjoy viable economies, get a decent job, live meaningful lives, feel good about themselves, and not focus on hating all of western civilization and esp. America because you don't have any other reason to get up in the morning. (Europe has a big problem since they're being outbred by their Muslim population. You can fill in the blanks...obviously, their native, Christian-even-if-in-name-only-population will be outvoted someday.) We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Okay, so that's our game plan: Bringing Iraq into the 21st century. Some have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, i.e., Fallujah. We give them a chance to cooperate, then we make life unpleasant until they do, and we don't allow cameras and the press in when we clamp down. If our foreign policy is driven by hysteria, by hand-wringing, liberal columnists who hate us and want Bush to fail and be driven from office, then we've already lost. We might as well hand over the keys to America to the UN.

This is a war against terror. It'll take a long time, and we will win in the end. What happened in Fallujah isn't a horrible example of how war can go wrong. If we simply waged war, we'd have wiped out Fallujah's malcontents months ago. But we've complicated things by deciding to do a bit of nation-building in the middle of waging war, and it's not easy. We won't be driven from Iraq by a bunch of homicidal maniacs, but we must make sure this doesn't happen again. (Because the rest of the Arab world is watching and taking notes.) We have to crack down hard. The solution is somewhere between 'Carthage delenda est', leveling the town, killing everyone, and sowing the ground with salt...and simply arresting whomever we can catch and putting them in an Iraqi jail. It has to be harsh enough to get their attention and make them decide not to fool around with Americans ever again. And we should take measures against those weasly stringer photographers in bed with the terrorists and show up with cameras at the ready before bombs explode. Presumably, the marines know what to do and are already doing it.

497 posted on 04/02/2004 4:02:10 PM PST by hershey

To: Charles Henrickson

498 posted on 04/02/2004 10:11:51 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe ("Guns don't kill people. The Government does.")

i think you express ideas that are possibly helpful. but i think our time in iraq has already shown that overwhelming force will only turn the population more against us. your implication that because these people are not christian they understand nothing but force is simply not accurate. an occupied population does not want to understand anything. they want to be left alone. in the end i think the best thing we can do is let the iraqi police go after the people who did it, ie fired the rocket gernades and automatic weapons. difficult as that will be i think it is preferable to shutting off any amount of the water until they give these people up. history shows that this will add resolve to the subdued population. a superior force cannot avenge atrocities perpetrated against it by punishing the occupied population at large. i say again, it will not work. counterinsurgency theory is all over this. the only thing that will work is to find the people responsible in an orchestrated and humane manner. and if this fails to produce the criminals then we have to be willing to accept that these deaths may never see justice. being the occupying and superior power we need to show the foresight and compassion to accept this.
you should also understand that this is these peoples home and some of them, however disillusioned will continue to fight for it against an occupier even after you have called them every name in the book and vowed vengence.
you say the towns population does not read the bible, but i would guess that the average person in fallujah is much more familiar with the koran than most americans. have you ever deigned to read the koran or any part of it? it is not a text urging the faithful to destroy the christians. it is a series of teachings and parables with many of the same stories as the old testament.
you also say we dont kill innocent women and children. you may want to add "on purpose" because it certainly has happened in this war and every one that came before and every one that will come after.
i sincerely hope that our mission to "bring iraq into the 21st century" is something that every good christian supports. but i know they dont.
you say this is a war against terror. this, according to the us governments own definition is nearly impossible in iraq. any iraqi fighting the u.s. in iraq is by definition not a terrorist, though foreign fighters would be. so the war on terror is not being fought in iraq. in fact i think the warr in iraq, however justified, is largely seperate from the war on terror. that war cannot be won on the battlefield. that is a topic for another day...

499 posted on 04/03/2004 11:50:06 AM PST by mojomoto (the greatest prize is yet to come)

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