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To: swarthyguy
I don't know what Nambiar had to say about the marketplace mortar bombings. But veteran NYT Balkans reporter David Binder, like MacKenzie, is still not prepared to relax the laws of physics, and remains convinced that "Markale I" and "Markale II", as he puts it, were inside jobs by Izetbegovic's boys. See his interview segments in the film "Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War" and also this piece in the Nation, put out just before the ink dried on Dayton:

123 posted on 04/12/2004 7:55:49 PM PDT by sjy
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To: sjy
So let me see if I understand you:

Your response on the land ownership issue rests upon one link which directly supports Judah's correction of Gen Boyd's take on the issue

Ethnic distribution of the privately-owned land:

Owned by Croats: 3.112 square kilometers, 13% of private, 6.08% of total

Owned by Muslims: 10.710 square kilometers, 45% of private, 20.92% of total

Owned by Serbs: 9.989 square kilometers, 42% of private, 19.51% of total.

and another link which leads to a colored map, which has been referenced here on FR previously, though at a location which also had the Croat and Bosnian Muslim populations maps to go alongside the Serb one. The site you pulled the map from doesn't seem to bother with them - how unsurprising.

But nevertheless, one can find maps of greater granularity which rely upon the same source data.

Go ahead, click the map and you can get maps for various of the Bosnian Opstinas, which have all the ethnicities represented, and then you can key in on those Opstinas which fell under the thrall of Karadzic et al, and imagine all the green, blue, and black circles disappearing courtesy of ethnic cleansing. For example you could look at the map of Bijeljina, and notice that through the magic of "Serbs own farmland", not only do the residents of the city of Bijeljina get a one way ticket to either a shallow grave or some squalid refugee camp somewhere, the farmers in Janja get the boot too. Neat trick that - and it would be even neater if you could justify it through some legitimate means.

But as it stands, you can't. And the Serbs got bombed for their troubles and those that now reside in the RS are living in a third world cesspit of corruption for all their misguided sacrifice. The connection, as I have implied, appears to be beyond your grasp.

Consider it placed in the "no duh" file.

As to the number of casualties in the Bosnian war, considering Sarajevo suffered around 10,000 deaths and Srebrenica accounts for an additional 7,500, Kenney's lower bound is either some form of rude comedy on his part, or the three sides suffered a mere 7,500 casualties in 3 years of fighting exclusive of Sarajevo and Srebrenica in July of '95.

War Casualties

The civilian population bore the brunt of the war in Bosnia. The number of casualties is a matter of debate. the figure 200,000 (or more) dead, injured, and missing was frequently cited in media reports on the war in Bosnia as late as 1994. the October 1995 bulletin of the Bosnian Institute of Public Health of the Republic Committee for Health and Social Welfare gave the numbers as 146,340 killed, and 174,914 wounded on the territory under the control of the Bosnian army. Mustafa Imamovic gave a figure of 144,248 perished (including those who died from hunger or exposure), mainly Muslims. The Red Cross and the UNHCR have not, to the best of our knowledge, produced data on the number of persons killed and injured in the course of the war. A November 1995 unclassified CIA memorandum estimated 156,500 civilian deaths in the country (all but 10,000 of them in Muslim- or Croat-held territories), not including the 8,000 to 10,000 then still missing from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves. This figure for civilian deaths far exceeded the estimate in the same report of 81,500 troops killed (45,000 Bosnian government, 6,500 Bosnian Croat, and 30,000 Bosnian Serb)

These data were challened by George Kenney, in an article appearing in spring 1995. Kenney asserted that the Red Cross and other international agencies estimated the number of casualties in the tens of thousands. Kenney himself argued for a figure of between 25,000 and 60,000. The yearbook of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute gave the figure of 25,000 to 55,000 total deaths in the fighting, excluding casualties in the fighting between the Bosnian Serb army and the Bosnian Croat army. According to a Bosnian Serb publication as disseminated by electronic mail in early 1997, the Bosnian Serb republic suffered 18,392 deaths in the military, and 36,543 wounded. This figure apparently does not include Serbs from outside of Bosnia who died in the fighting in Bosnia. On the basis of these data, not only the Kenney and Stockholm Peace Institute estimates, but the CIA estimate of casualties from the war, appear too low.

Source: The War In Bosnia Herzegovina Burg & Shoup, pp 169-170.

What this all comes down to, sjy, is all those non-red circles on the map that wound up on the Serb side of the Bosnian front line, and whether people like you can downplay the fate of those who didn't live to tell the tale or turn Milosevic's wars into something they weren't, being wars fought by equally odious combatants.

I say you cannot, and America has twice emphasized that fact with military force. You can get all the Mackenzies and Kenneys you want, sjy, but if their statements don't line up with the facts, they become irrelevant to anybody save those who look to further a discredited worldview, such as yourself, and merely cause for more confusion when, contrary to the worldview supported in part by their misrepresentation of the facts, you and yours get yourselves bombed again.

My book says quite clearly that we will never know who did the breadline massacre. People say I am accusing the Bosnians of doing it to themselves. And I say, no, absolutely not! - Lewis Mackenzie, 1998

My bad - he did correct himself, 6 years after the fact.

Whatever. We're talking past each other, and that's too bad. Serbia and her expatriate offspring have a choice between the carrot or the stick, and continue to shun the carrot.

Perhaps if we told them that 70+% of the carrot was grown on a Serbian farm they'd seize the opportunity.

125 posted on 04/20/2004 2:23:36 PM PDT by Hoplite
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