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More copyright complaints
Free Republic | April 8, 2004 | Jim Robinson

Posted on 04/08/2004 9:19:34 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

As most of you are aware, we've recently received several copyright complaints. In the last few weeks, we've received complaints from the SJ Mercury News, Independent (UK), SF Chronicle and The Boston Globe. Just a couple days ago the Post-Gazette send a cease and desist notice and yesterday I heard from the Tribune-Review.

Tonight, I got a call from Amy and there were two more registered letters at our PO Box. The McClatchy News (Sacramento Bee) and USAToday are now added to the list of publications that have complained about copyright violations.

Well, folks, the handwriting is on the wall. The complaints are now coming in faster than I can respond to them. John is currently in the process of writing programs to search out and automatically excerpt all existing threads from these sources.

I think we're gonna have to go to excerpt and link for all news sources very soon unless we have written permission on file.


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1stammendment; 2004electionbias; adminlectureseries; bigmedia; bozos; ccrm; complaints; constitution; copyright; copyrightlaw; donotpostlist; excerpt; excerptingarticles; excerpts; fairuse; fr; freerepublic; freerepubliczotted; freespeech; frinthenews; lexicon; mediabias; silencingcritics; zot; zotfreerepublic
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To: weegee; Jim Robinson
Weegee, you make a great point. I don't know why Google, and the other sites that cache websites (there were a few mentioned above) are able to continue to do so without getting complaints of copyright violation. This could be very significant.
351 posted on 04/09/2004 6:58:11 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: mhking
Not funny.

Funny.

352 posted on 04/09/2004 6:58:59 AM PDT by Publius6961 (50.3% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks (subject to a final count).)
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To: giotto
"It seems to me that there is an issue that might take precedence over copyright, namely historical preservation."

I'm in 100% agreement there, but then there is still the issue of a probable legal fight to establish that.

353 posted on 04/09/2004 7:10:27 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: prisoner6
All Your Links Are Belong To Us.
354 posted on 04/09/2004 7:13:34 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (`,,`,,Election '04...It's going to be a bumpy ride,,`,,`)
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To: weegee; Jim Robinson
Here's an article about Google's caching and the issues that it raises in copyright. I have linked to the cached version of the article

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:ep3w0rt4xy0J:news.com.com/2100-1038_3-1024234.html+google+caching+%22fair+use%22&hl=en&start=2&ie=UTF-8
355 posted on 04/09/2004 7:19:04 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: StriperSniper
Just a crazy idea, reincorporate in some untouchable offshore hamlet?

The Principality of Sealand, the world's smallest soverign territory, is home to HavenCo's hosting service:

HavenCo has been providing services since May 2000 and is fully operational, offering the world's most secure managed servers in the world's only true free market environment, the Principality of Sealand.

356 posted on 04/09/2004 7:21:12 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: weegee
When I do register on some site that requires demograpic information, I register as a 14 year old girl.

You should register as a pre-teen (under 13) because the website is then prohibited from doing different things to your system (I think tracking cookies and the like).

The head of our I.S. Department at work introduced me to the spy-ware killer, Ad-aware 6. It comes in two flavors: the "Professional" version you have to pay for and the Standard version with less bells and whistles that you can download for free. It runs a C-Drive scan whenever you chose to do so, isolates all spyware and then asks if you want to quarantine them or delete them.

You can download it for free from Lavasoft. Follow the links to the regular version down-load page.

357 posted on 04/09/2004 7:23:02 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Jim Robinson
I was thinking of a more direct approach, to the publications who have sent takedown notices.
358 posted on 04/09/2004 7:24:01 AM PDT by Zeppo
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To: jpsb
"It would help them and would not be a terrible thing for FR."

Why would we want to help THEM? And yes, it WOULD be a terrible thing for FR. One of the greatest things about FR is the blessed lack of ad assaults (not to mention the ensuing SPAM that follows).

359 posted on 04/09/2004 7:28:12 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Jim Robinson; .45MAN
On the bright side, we are seen as a threat. Good.

Bookmarked.
360 posted on 04/09/2004 7:28:20 AM PDT by dansangel (Do your part to drive the 'rats to distraction - You *too* can be a monthly donor!)
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To: Prime Choice; Budge; wirestripper; TheBattman
"it may be worthwhile to determine if these same papers have lowered the hammer on sites such as DU and similar."

The DU has always exerpted. Can't say about the others. I think there are some who do and some who don't. I don't really spend enough time on other boards to notice.

Ping y'all.

361 posted on 04/09/2004 7:44:38 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Richard Kimball; Jim Robinson
Excellent point. There really needs to be some way of storing these articles. Jim, can you write a program to download the links and store them in your database? Then, have a search that will pull excerpts out of the article in relation to the search?

That would prevent the convenient amnesia of the left-wing publications.

362 posted on 04/09/2004 7:50:39 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (never surrender, this is for the kids)
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To: Jim Robinson; Mudboy Slim; FBD; sultan88; joanie-f; scholar; international american; BraveMan; ...
"Well, folks, the handwriting is on the wall. The complaints are now coming in faster than I can respond to them. John is currently in the process of writing programs to search out and automatically excerpt all existing threads from these sources."

*Excellent*.
If ya can't castle or block, then move.

"I think we're gonna have to go to excerpt and link for all news sources very soon unless we have written permission on file."

So be it.

But the "truth" of their lies, distortions, spin & all-round propaganda to the unwashed masses will get out, nonetheless.

No let 'em go to work and pay their bloodsucker sheisters to do something else.

...like writing law to prohibit excerpts? ;^)

363 posted on 04/09/2004 7:51:22 AM PDT by Landru (Indulgences: 2 for a buck.)
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To: Richard Kimball; Jim Robinson
Jim, maybe you could also then provide a link by that day to that article through http://www.waybackmachine.org/ or some other archiving service....atleast, until the information Gestopo gets to them too.
364 posted on 04/09/2004 8:03:08 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (never surrender, this is for the kids)
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To: Landru
"I think we're gonna have to go to excerpt and link for all news sources very soon unless we have written permission on file."

Whatta hassle...MUD

365 posted on 04/09/2004 8:03:47 AM PDT by Mudboy Slim (Become a monthly donor......"What good am I...if I fail to FReep?!")
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To: weegee; jnarcus
"I'm having a hard time remembering when Judicial Watch successfully represented a client to the END of the case."

I believe that jnarcus was referring to the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice). That is based in Virginia and was founded by Pat Robertson.

ACLJ

366 posted on 04/09/2004 8:04:57 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Jim Robinson
Jim,
If you need to raise money to fight these lawsuits let us know. They are definitely trying to take our freedoms away.
This sounds like an unexpected expense.

Did these companies show specific threads that weren't excerpts in their complaints?

Do we have a list of the newspapers that don't mind us using their full articles, published somewhere on Free Republic? We need to let the good guys know that we appreciate them.
367 posted on 04/09/2004 8:07:17 AM PDT by FR_addict
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To: Mudboy Slim
"Whatta hassle..."

Hardly.
An *incovenience*, yea sure.
But nothing that cannot -- easily -- be overcome.

I needn't teell you the truth & freedom always comes with a price, my friend.

...& the price they're exacting's cheap.

368 posted on 04/09/2004 8:08:52 AM PDT by Landru (Indulgences: 2 for a buck.)
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To: FreedomCalls
It does smell of an organized campaign. Perhaps we should fire back. If anyone here has a subscription to any of the rags listed, perhaps it is time to cancel.
369 posted on 04/09/2004 8:15:47 AM PDT by Doc-Joe
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To: Triple Word Score
Oh, ok!

I was just teasin' with the excerpt thing.
370 posted on 04/09/2004 8:15:52 AM PDT by 4mycountry ("Completely concretely" - - That's "the power of the 'Freeper'.")
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To: Nita Nupress
From the link you posted, here's an excerpt from a further link within it (emphasis by original writer, except for underlining done by me):

from this site:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

The "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. Are you reproducing an article from the New York Times because you needed to in order to criticise the quality of the New York Times, or because you couldn't find time to write your own story, or didn't want your readers to have to register at the New York Times web site? The first is probably fair use, the others probably aren't.

Fair use is usually a short excerpt and almost always attributed. (One should not use more of the work than is necessary to make the commentary.) It should not harm the commercial value of the work -- in the sense of people no longer needing to buy it (which is another reason why reproduction of the entire work is a problem.)

Note that most inclusion of text in Usenet followups is for commentary and reply, and it doesn't damage the commercial value of the original posting (if it has any) and as such it is fair use. Fair use isn't an exact doctrine, either. The court decides if the right to comment overrides the copyright on an individual basis in each case. There have been cases that go beyond the bounds of what I say above, but in general they don't apply to the typical net misclaim of fair use.

The "fair use" concept varies from country to country, and has different names (such as "fair dealing" in Canada) and other limitations outside the USA.

Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, but their expression and structure can. You can always write the facts in your own words.

371 posted on 04/09/2004 8:16:06 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: AppyPappy
Something like that is already in place. Over the next few days I'm going to apply my auto-snip tool to reduce the corpus down to a permissible size. That action will be logged in the edit history of each article. The original body will be available to a select few, which may or may not include more than the moderator staff--depending upon how poorly the auto-snip performs (depending how frequently we'll need to re-snip the article, to select a meatier cut.) Auto-snip only grabs the first few significant sentences, and not with much thought at that.

Later tools could be applied (to new posts as well) to select facts... names and dates... to populate some type of search table. Quotes can be extracted as well. And other tools could be written to monitor changes in the source article and report differences automatically.

These complaints are truely a blessing in disguise. Getting rid of the constraints of the full text operation open many doors for Free Republic. "That which does not kill us only makes us stronger."
372 posted on 04/09/2004 8:16:20 AM PDT by John Robinson
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To: no-s
I know it sounds paranoid, but I wonder if this represents a coordinated
attempt to render FR less useful.


If so, I'd say to all these "copyright complainers", especially the ones of
nutburger liberal ideology...
"Too Late, Your Emperor's Clothes have already been exposed!"

Along with talk radio (and it's expansion to streaming on the Internet and
going out to XM radio), the copyright complainers may place a partial muzzle on
freerepublic...but it will always be a leaky and WORTHLESS one.

Plus, they'll just earn a reputation for being SoreLoserGirlyMen
that can dish it out, but a world-class wussies when it comes to taking legitimate criticism
for their "BIAS" (thanks Mr. Goldberg).
373 posted on 04/09/2004 8:16:44 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Nita Nupress
BTW, how does Google get by with caching news articles?

I'd like to know the answer to that too.

374 posted on 04/09/2004 8:17:24 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Polybius
Back when the Washington comPost only requred birth year and zip code, I would pick random obscure places with almost no population and be a very old female. It wouldn't accept that I was a 103 year old woman from Big Stone Gap Virginia, but a 98 year old from Sebastopol California worked fine. Go figure.
375 posted on 04/09/2004 8:18:14 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: sweetliberty
I don't believe the perpetrators of this attack should be allowed to go unchallenged.

Agreed. I like your idea of upping donations, there are probably enough posters who would be willing to do this.

They're pushing us, and we have to push back. We have to find a way.

376 posted on 04/09/2004 8:21:21 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Jim Robinson
Perhaps a moratorium on newbies so we don't get disruptors signing up to deliberately sabotage us?
377 posted on 04/09/2004 8:22:02 AM PDT by mabelkitty (A tuning, a Vote in the topic package to the starting US presidency election fight)
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To: Richard Kimball; Jim Robinson
What's particularly upsetting about this is that the original sources will pull the links, destroying part of what you set up FR to do, which was to create a database that we can search.

Jim, what's to prevent you from storing the entire article on your computer, even though you (automatically) only displayed an excerpt on the discussion thread? The entire article could still be searchable. Then at some time in the future, if a person were to perform a search which found a match within the article, it could display just the paragraph containing the search term along with a link to the original discussion thread.

This would appear to meet the objective of archiving past articles which the liberal media would otherwise try to throw down the memory hole. Critical quotes and comments could be located. And yet it would also fall under the Fair Use criteria, since you wouldn't be re-publishing the copyrighted item on the Internet, merely keeping a copy for personal use.

378 posted on 04/09/2004 8:26:31 AM PDT by dpwiener
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To: sweetliberty; Jim Robinson
But you can't use a Nexis account to publish entire articles. You'd have to ahve a private forum and every Freeper would need an account to post.

As far as buying into syndicates, that costs a lot, too, and you'd have to buy all of them.

There is no easy solution, but the best one is to excerpt wisely from forbidden sources.

379 posted on 04/09/2004 8:28:29 AM PDT by The Old Hoosier (Right makes might.)
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To: nuconvert
see 350
380 posted on 04/09/2004 8:29:10 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Help bring the end to Freepathons. Donate monthly.)
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To: bootless
We'll have to level whole forests to track their deceipt. Is that what they really want? ;-)
381 posted on 04/09/2004 8:31:39 AM PDT by CounterCounterCulture (I have already previewed or do not wish to preview this composition.)
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To: bootless
Sounds like we'll have to take control and keep hard copies and/or copies of important stuff on hard drive, for archival and research purposes.

That may not work with web-based articles, because they'll probably just deny it and accuse us of fabricating/altering the data files. At least with hard copies, the ink on the paper can probably be traced back to the newspaper in question, so there's no denying who wrote what.
382 posted on 04/09/2004 9:02:40 AM PDT by Ex-Dem (Never bend to terrorism.)
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To: everyone; weegee
To: Mo1; Chad Fairbanks
To: Jim Robinson

Chad Fairbanks wrote:
Or, alternativly, as FReepers respond to the posted, excerpted article, they could "quote" the next paragraph in the article, and eventually the whole article is posted anyway, just in bits and pieces.

______________________________________

That's an interesting idea
101 -Mo1-

______________________________________

First proposed back in '98 when the WP/LA Times lawsuit first hit..
Naturally, -- as the owner, JR cannot even hint that we individuals can play this sort of game.
But if we all did it, would we all be banned? -- Or more to the point, could we all be sued?
140 tpaine


______________________________________


I don't know.
-- That DUh link recommends that trolls post threads deliberately to initiate copyright lawsuits against FR.
-WeGe-

______________________________________


You're misssing the point.
If individuals use their fair use right to post portions of excerpted articles in the body of a thread, -- FR cannot be held responsible.

JR & the mods cannot reasonably be expected to monitor every comment on every thread.

Sure, individuals could be charged with ignoring copywrite, and no doubt could be sued.

But I doubt if JR could be forced to do more than delete 'offending' posts, if & when they were brought to his attention.
Big IF..




383 posted on 04/09/2004 9:06:05 AM PDT by tpaine (In their arrogance, a few infinitely shrewd imbeciles attempt to lay down the law for all of us.el)
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To: Landru
I was wondereing when this would happen...but it won't stop us!!
384 posted on 04/09/2004 9:10:07 AM PDT by international american (Support our troops!! Send Kerry back to Bedlam,Massachusetts!!)
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To: Jim Robinson
Well, here we go again. Round and round she goes, where she stops no body knows.

I would not be surprised to find out that this attack on Free Republic is in co ordination to shut up Rush Limbaugh. The conservatives can now fight fire with fire with Rush and this web site, they don't like it. Another clear and present sign we are winning and knocking a chunk out of the liberal notion of the world. I wonder how much longer we need before we can finally sink the liberal ship once and for all.
385 posted on 04/09/2004 9:11:37 AM PDT by ChevyZ28 (Most of us would rather be ruined by praise, than saved by criticism.)
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To: FreedomCalls
Think you're correct. Objective journalism has become an oxymoron and no one points out the partisanship of the media the way Freepers do. This is the problem the Partisan Press faces - the outright lies, mistakes, deliberate fabrication, or misquoting is presented here and Freepers will take it upon themselves to make the big COMPLAINT! Point out their partisanship.

This is what happens when you don't want to accept their propaganda - they have to limit how much evidence you accumulate.

Perhaps a few letters to editors asking why they don't want more exposure, as on the Internet of their reporting?
386 posted on 04/09/2004 9:49:13 AM PDT by BlessedByLiberty (Respectfully submitted,)
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To: John Robinson
Something like that is already in place. Over the next few days I'm going to apply my auto-snip tool to reduce the corpus down to a permissible size. That action will be logged in the edit history of each article. The original body will be available to a select few, which may or may not include more than the moderator staff--depending upon how poorly the auto-snip performs (depending how frequently we'll need to re-snip the article, to select a meatier cut.) Auto-snip only grabs the first few significant sentences, and not with much thought at that.

Later tools could be applied (to new posts as well) to select facts... names and dates... to populate some type of search table. Quotes can be extracted as well. And other tools could be written to monitor changes in the source article and report differences automatically.


That sounds perfect for right now, but I believe FreeRepublic should become a regular newspaper that can pay for articles. We could excerpt normally but pay for the really important ones. All this can be spelled out in the posting page. Not everyone would understand, but enough people would get it and most would only post the whole article on the really important ones.

Note: Fundraising idea - Freepers are great writers - can some that are experienced authors write a book about the phenomenon of Free Republic itself and donate the proceeds? I'm sure it would be a best seller!
387 posted on 04/09/2004 9:53:31 AM PDT by \/\/ayne (I regret that I have but one subscription cancellation notice to give to my local newspaper.)
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To: Nita Nupress
Are you referring to legal action? I thought it was the plaintiff's job to prove something, not the defendent's.

In a criminal action, the defendant doesn't have to present a defense; if he doesn't, the court reminds the jury that that can't be held against him. But the standard here is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

In a civil case, the standard is "preponderance of the evidence," and if only the plaintiff offers evidence, that's where the preponderance is.

388 posted on 04/09/2004 9:59:58 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Lokibob
"Happy Birthday", copyright 1935, has had its copyright renewed.

As I said, there may be a copyright on the lyrics. The original "Good Morning to All", however, is certainly and unambiguously in the public domain.

389 posted on 04/09/2004 10:04:37 AM PDT by supercat (Why is it that the more "gun safety" laws are passed, the less safe my guns seem?)
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To: international american
"I was wondereing when this would happen...but it won't stop us!!"

No it most certainly won't.
Only *stiffens* our resolve, Tim. ;^)

One other thing struck me hearing this announcement: the timing.
Didn't it strike you somewhat *odd* all these sleezy rags show up at right around the same time frame to whine & throw a hissyfit?

Had to ask myself: Could it be -- *GASP* -- a virtual Left-wing conspiracy!!??!!

>?<

...nawwwww. :o)

390 posted on 04/09/2004 10:12:18 AM PDT by Landru (Indulgences: 2 for a buck.)
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To: sweetliberty
I get this odd thing--my firewall will tell me that various news sites are requesting my Ebay password.

My local news site, newsok.com, is one of the worst, but major news sources other than that have done it too. It mystifies me. I admit I know next to nothing about what is actually going on or if the request for my Ebay password comes from them or not.

I also don't know if my computer could give them what they're asking for--I always enter my password manually, every time....
391 posted on 04/09/2004 10:23:05 AM PDT by Triple Word Score (Meretriciousness Everywhere.)
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There are and will be thousands of websites out there that will never 'exclude" FR.

To hell with those who do and good riddnace; who cares.

392 posted on 04/09/2004 10:33:15 AM PDT by Jakarta ex-pat
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To: Triple Word Score
It is creepy, isn't it? I presume that they don't get through, at least not the ones that my firewall is notifying me about and I don't really understand how it works either, but I find it very disturbing that anyone with the know-how can access anybody's conmputer at will for whatever purpose they may have, and I'll warrant that anybody resorting to such things has no good purpose in mind.
393 posted on 04/09/2004 10:33:44 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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good riddnace=good riddance.
394 posted on 04/09/2004 10:35:07 AM PDT by Jakarta ex-pat
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To: Jim Robinson
Wow the player haters are out in force.
395 posted on 04/09/2004 10:35:09 AM PDT by cyborg (GO CONDI GO!)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
hehehe
396 posted on 04/09/2004 10:35:33 AM PDT by cyborg (GO CONDI GO!)
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To: Jim Robinson
The questin begs - what are these news sources loosing by us posting stories from their sites (with linking)?

The answer is - zero. Thus you have to pursue other reasons for their desire to end our use of their materials.

This has nothing to do with copywrite infringement - it has EVERYthing to do with use of their materials in opposition to those media outlet's political stand.
397 posted on 04/09/2004 10:39:26 AM PDT by TheBattman (Leadership = http://www.georgewbush.com/)
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~
Jim has already learned the hard way (via previous cases) that "fair use" does not apply to conservative web sites.
398 posted on 04/09/2004 10:43:27 AM PDT by TheBattman (Leadership = http://www.georgewbush.com/)
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To: Jim Robinson
Obviously, the lefties are getting more scared of you & FR.
399 posted on 04/09/2004 10:47:20 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: John Robinson
Have you looked into distributed servers using P2P technology? I'm not a computer guy, but there may be ways to archive and retrieve in cyberspace that do not involve owning and operating a file server.
400 posted on 04/09/2004 10:48:54 AM PDT by mo
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