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Free Republic | April 8, 2004 | Jim Robinson

Posted on 04/08/2004 9:19:34 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

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To: passionfruit
I think that an automatic excerpt with a link to the paper would be a sensable way to go. Then the buzzards will have to find something else to gripe about.

Nope. Then they'd push even harder. They'd seek no excerpting (some sites already demand this).

Free speech and fair use do not mean a thing to the lying liars on the left.

301 posted on 04/09/2004 4:12:38 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: passionfruit
After "no excerpts" would be no "deep linking" (you would not be permitted to link to the article, you could only link to the top level homepage). Some websites have tried to fight for this against other sites (I don't know that any have upheld their position in the courts).
302 posted on 04/09/2004 4:14:14 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: supercat
Because that's the way ASCAP et al. bribed Congress to write the rules. They're not stupid. They understand that if they charged bands to cover other people's tunes, bands wouldn't be able to afford to do so and thus would either write their own music or go out of business. So they write laws to exempt the musicians from paying for music while makng the venue owners (the deeper pockets) pay.

What's more, in the days of vaudeville, songwriters got their money selling sheet music (50 cents a booklet, big money back 100 years ago). They encouraged performers to sing their songs; they would bribe a shill to sing along from the audience or down the street at the local pub all to convince the audience, potential customers, that the song was "popular" and that other people were already singing it.

When recorded songs first came along, there was no money paid to the songwriter (certainly no royalty payment). When radio came along, there was no royalty payment for playing records. Heck, record companies gave the radio stations plenty of free records to encourage them to play their songs. Live musicians complained that they were being forced out of work.

At every step of the game, the Supreme Court said that this was all fair use. Every time, the industry came back to fight to change copyright law.

This continues to today. We have the "best" government money can buy. The founding fathers would not be happy.

303 posted on 04/09/2004 4:21:43 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: ambrose
This article from Al Franken is not excerpted nor do I see any disclaimer that it was used with permission nor do I even see a link to the source (copyright owner).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x44091
304 posted on 04/09/2004 4:23:50 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: weegee
I think that FR may need to re-evaluate the policy of permitting newbies to initiate threads. That DUh link recommends that trolls post threads deliberately to initiate copyright lawsuits against FR.

There is nothing stopping a person with that intent from posting full text in a reply then siccing the legal department. In most threads, such an insidious comment would likely keep unnoticed without attribution.

However, I don't believe this will be a problem if an earnest attempt is made to keep the site free of impermissible full text. Legal battles are costly. More so, such antics would land the troll himself in hot water with foul play being suspect.

Wishful thinking on their part.

305 posted on 04/09/2004 4:28:05 AM PDT by John Robinson
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To: Chad Fairbanks
And, if you are not a member of BMI or ASCAP (or that other one, SEASAC or whatever) then no one is collecting royalties for you - it becomes your own task if you choose not to join. In all reality there is no reason to NOT join one - Writer Memberships are usually free, I believe (but the real bucks are in publishing)...

The artists who do not join ASCAP and BMI are not the ones complaining that the bar is ripping them off by playing their albums. These artists ARE being ripped off by ASCAP and BMI however when they collect fees for songs that ARE NOT THEIRS.

If a bar chooses to play only artists and songs that are not covered by ASCAP and BMI, those companies have no reason to send in their muscle toughs to shake down a bar for "compliance" licensing.

306 posted on 04/09/2004 4:33:31 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: zip
Even a broken clock is right twice per day. HEHE
307 posted on 04/09/2004 4:37:34 AM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: Polybius
When I do register on some site that requires demograpic information, I register as a 14 year old girl.

You should register as a pre-teen (under 13) because the website is then prohibited from doing different things to your system (I think tracking cookies and the like).

When I sign in to read WashingtonPost online, I use the "example" values (I think that is a woman born in 1965 in a DC zipcode...).

I think that caution has to be exercised in "sharing" an account (even a free one) because of provisions of the enrollment agreement (even if signup is free).

308 posted on 04/09/2004 4:40:36 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: Jim Robinson
Didn't read all 300 replies, so my apology if repetitive. I think this is great! It simply means that FR has gotten so big and so popular! Much like when you make a copy of your own CD nobody cares, but make 1000 and all of a sudden, somebody cares.

That is the bright side. The other possibility is that some e-mail the originators of the articles saying,'I read yer story posted on FR and I think...'
309 posted on 04/09/2004 4:45:07 AM PDT by bk1000 (error 404- failed to get tag line)
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To: Jim Robinson
I've seen some people saying that they were going out of their way to contact news organizations to get them to go after FR -- their way of trying to counteract and perhaps try to eliminate FR as a "viable" organization. Simply pathetic if you ask me.
310 posted on 04/09/2004 4:47:47 AM PDT by mhking
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To: Jim Robinson
Jim, are the other news forums (and I use that description loosely in many cases) being held to the same standard? Is it just FR?

thanks,Prairie
311 posted on 04/09/2004 4:51:17 AM PDT by prairiebreeze (The 9-11 commission demonstrated it can give Ringling Bros/Barnum & Bailey a run at the box office)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I don't think it's going to buy him what he really wants though --

IF Americans can find out more about John Kerry the man and John Kerry the candidate (let alone his VP choice, the leading Democrat known as "The Unknown Democrat"), he doesn't stand a chance at winning this election:

(Iraq) What Would Kerry Do As President? Senator Doesn't Always Answer

According to a CNN transcript, anchor Judy Woodruff asked Kerry, "What exactly -- right now -- would you do differently?"

Kerry: "Right now, what I would do differently is, I mean, look, I'm not the president, and I didn't create this mess so I don't want to acknowledge a mistake that I haven't made.

How do we know these things? Because one media source quoted the transcript (not paraphrase) of another media source and the entire text was circulated for comment at FR.

If Big Media won't linger on the lack of a response from this man who "would be" President, then the alternate media must take up the slack.

312 posted on 04/09/2004 4:51:18 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: starboardlist
Run the article through an ebonics translator, then post the new text.

Not funny.

313 posted on 04/09/2004 4:53:44 AM PDT by mhking
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To: eddie willers; Jim Robinson
"over the target" bump!
314 posted on 04/09/2004 4:58:14 AM PDT by auboy (The 9-11 Commission ain't worth a bucket of warm spit. Make that half a bucket.)
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To: mhking
I've seen some people saying that they were going out of their way to contact news organizations to get them to go after FR -- their way of trying to counteract and perhaps try to eliminate FR as a "viable" organization. Simply pathetic if you ask me.

When they can't win an argument based on fact or reasoned arguments, they can only resort to dirty tricks to supress the opposition.

315 posted on 04/09/2004 5:00:48 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: Jim Robinson
search out and automatically excerpt all existing threads from these sources.

If I remember correctly, they only have to be taken out of the public eye. You can keep the full text as long as it is not available to the public. Do you see what I mean?

316 posted on 04/09/2004 5:01:30 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Jim Robinson
I believe that this is a back door operation instigated by the democrats [socialists]to , if they cannot destroy, at least neutralize Free Republic.

They [democrats a/k/a socialists and communists] know that Free Republic was a [I would say the] major factor that prevented al gore from stealing the '00 election.

The democrats [socialists and communists] know that if they are to be successful that they must deal with Free Republic.

They rather destroy it but will settle,for now, with neutralizing it. But make no mistake, should john kerry be elected[and due to the stupidity of the average American voter and the democrats ability to create votes] unfortunately, this is a distinct possibility, he will destroy Free Republic.

This is only the opening salvo in the campaign.

Jim, please be vigilant and not give them any ammunition to use against you [us].

The above is only my opinion.
317 posted on 04/09/2004 5:03:13 AM PDT by sport
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To: Jim Robinson
I think we're gonna have to go to excerpt and link for all news sources very soon unless we have written permission on file.

Looks like a good idea, taking into account the changes regarding the use of the web. Would I be wrong if I assumed that much of this is due to the fact that many of these web sites are charging a fee, or soon will for access?

At first, I was a bit angry or annoyed about this situation, I still am, but I note that so many of these sites are now charging a subscription fee.

I do not know that people will pay for all things like news, but they can sure try......:-(

I am not going back to a printed newspaper however. The handwriting is on the wall for those folks. They are soon going to be extinct. This extinction will cause some changes in how the liberal excrement is disseminated.

I suspect that this is why the pressure is building for the liberals to own their very own cable channel.

We, as Conservatives, must/should be getting ahead of that game and establish one of our own!.IMHO.

318 posted on 04/09/2004 5:05:12 AM PDT by Cold Heat (Notice! Looking for a replacement lawyer with only one hand! (who can't say "on the other hand")
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To: Jim Robinson; John Robinson
What if we created a new table called full_article, wrote a perl script to move the full text to the table and then provided a link to the full text in the excerpt. The mods would have the only access to the full text in case there was a discrepancy. This is no different from having a pile of newspapers in the basement.
319 posted on 04/09/2004 5:07:10 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Is this what you mean:

This text is out of sight!

^^^^^ See Above ^^^^^

320 posted on 04/09/2004 5:07:34 AM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: Jim Robinson
Jim-can we write a program to automatically register and sign in on these sites as we link to them?
321 posted on 04/09/2004 5:08:28 AM PDT by mo
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To: mhking
Silly, but it may be legal. In deference, we could run it through the hillbilly translater.

And so Grand Wizard Byrd ast ole Rummy "Whar them weapons o mass destruction at?"
322 posted on 04/09/2004 5:09:53 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Jim Robinson
I wonder if there are utilities that "re-write" a piece into a generic reformulation bearing no grammmatical or structural relationship to the original article?
323 posted on 04/09/2004 5:09:54 AM PDT by mo
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To: Jim Robinson
Just a thought, and probably an impractical one. What if we did research and compiled our own news ? I'll give you an example thread here shortly.
324 posted on 04/09/2004 5:10:02 AM PDT by BSunday (This space left intentionally blank)
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To: AppyPappy
You know, these rags are really shooting themselves in the foot. I'll bet most of the complaining papers have circulation figs that are declining. FR is at least getting people to look at their product. If they're making a stink, I'll do whatever JimRob asks to keep them off his back, but I think their politics definitely outweighs their business sense. And that's probably why their circulation figs are going south.
325 posted on 04/09/2004 5:11:43 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Richard Kimball; Jim Robinson
"What's particularly upsetting about this is that the original sources will pull the links, destroying part of what you set up FR to do, which was to create a database that we can search"

This is my biggest worry too. That, and even with current articles, many of us don't bother with links to sources that require registering, and personally, unless the article is particularly riveting, I don't generally bother clicking on the source links at all if the article is excerpted.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is an organized campaign. If they could just get rid of Fox news on TV, Rush (and other popular conservative radio hosts) on radio and FR on the web, they could go back to fleecing the drooling sheeple unchallenged. I'm sure that is their intent.

326 posted on 04/09/2004 5:18:06 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: mewzilla
They think they are "saving journalism".
327 posted on 04/09/2004 5:19:15 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Judging from their product, they wouldn't know journalism if it bit them on their collective behind.
328 posted on 04/09/2004 5:21:09 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Jim Robinson
All we have to do is re-word the original article anyways, so, it is only a speed bump!
329 posted on 04/09/2004 5:29:11 AM PDT by RaceBannon (VOTE DEMOCRAT AND LEARN ARABIC FREE!!)
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To: Jim Robinson
Probably completely unrelated, but I had a bunch of port scan attacks detected yesterday by my firewall. When I had them traced, most were coming from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette and there were 2 others from news sources, one in Florida and I forget where (and what) the other one was. I thought it odd at the time. Then you posted this last night. I keep FR open all the time the computer is on, which is most of the time and I'm on cable modem. I wonder if others here have experienced anything similar and if it is in any way related.
330 posted on 04/09/2004 5:29:27 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: seastay
Great find. The Internet Archive has the potential to be a tremendous resource. Thanks for the link.
331 posted on 04/09/2004 5:42:29 AM PDT by Reagan Renaissance (Reagan is the architect, but the Renaissance is in your hands.)
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To: Jim Robinson
whatever happened to a free press? if they can print what they want to, why aren't we given equal protection under the law in discussing what they print...

who needs them...

teeman
332 posted on 04/09/2004 5:49:32 AM PDT by teeman8r
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To: Jim Robinson
I hope some of the legal minds that frequent this site, have some thoughts about how best to use the fair use doctrine and other aspects of the copyright law that may be relevant to this site. And I hope they have some thoughts about who bears the burden of proof.

When they put stuff on the web, it is intended for public consumption without fee, no matter how much revenue they derive from advertising or subscription. They can't have it both ways. I hope our legal eagles will have some input for Congressional legislation for forth coming revisions of the copyright laws.
333 posted on 04/09/2004 5:49:52 AM PDT by Reagan Renaissance (Reagan is the architect, but the Renaissance is in your hands.)
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To: jamesnwu
"We should initiate a "bullet point" system where FReepers go through articles and list all the new/salient details when we aren't allowed to post. That will piss them off even more, without violating anything!"

I rather like that idea. What they are trying to do, in effect, is censor (and control) information. It would be a real pain, but by posting facts, quotes and relevant information in that fashion, the only thing that would really be lost would be the interpretation of the idiotic journalist who authored it, and the need to bother with their rags at all.

334 posted on 04/09/2004 5:50:26 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Alberta's Child
"I like that idea. In addition, the "excerpt" should also include liks to the newspaper's advertisers -- so we can all send e-mails telling them why we won't do business with them anymore."

I like that idea too.

335 posted on 04/09/2004 5:58:23 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: upchuck
need more?
336 posted on 04/09/2004 6:04:11 AM PDT by zip (Monthly donations are the easiest way to say Thanks for FR)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
"as FReepers respond to the posted, excerpted article, they could "quote" the next paragraph in the article, and eventually the whole article is posted anyway, just in bits and pieces"

Yeah. I usually find the posts more informative and entertaining than the original articles anyway. Of course, a lot of the "informative" part is due to links to previous articles. We are being unfairly targeted in the interest of confining and regulating our freedon of speech (only the lying lefties are allowed to say what they want to say) to the extent that we are in a virtual cage. Where's the freedom in that? Any voice that interferes with their agenda must be silenced. FReepers are hard-headed, intelligent and contrary. We will find a way to beat them at their own game. We must. It's our job.

337 posted on 04/09/2004 6:13:14 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Indy Pendance; Jim Robinson

We have a ton of talented FReepers just itching to be part of a new and exciting branch of FR. This isn't the end, this is just the beginning. FR News service is right around the corner, with a staff of volunteer reporters.

Very good idea. It's almost defacto working already.
To support it with another example, just look at the freeper coverage of local-turned-national news: its better than the official news (IMO). Remember Columbia sad day?

The only objection I have is to use of "frogs": too French and smells cheezy :))

"frarticle" is good.
FRNews is excellent.
338 posted on 04/09/2004 6:23:19 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: ~Kim4VRWC's~; Jim Robinson
Jim said on an earlier thread that he (FR) doesn't have the funds to fight for defending the "fair use" exception in the copyright act. I'd like to see the next FReepathon devoted solely to raising money for legal defense of "fair use". Also, I would contribute at least $50 to a special fund set up to retain the legal counsel needed to pursue such an effort.
339 posted on 04/09/2004 6:23:37 AM PDT by CedarDave (Kerry loves daylight savings time: He can set his clocks forward, then change them back in 7 months)
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To: Nita Nupress
"Nothing would terrorize the Left more than hundreds or thousands of bored, inquisitive FReepers with nothing to do but LexNex"

Teehee...I find that thought delightfully amusing.

340 posted on 04/09/2004 6:27:33 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: AM2000
We'll just have to paraphrase. Or how about using frames? For example, a frame in the middle with content directly from NYT, within a larger FR frame. It would take some recoding of the forum but I suspect it'd satisfy them and us.

This is interesting. Would this allow the ENTIRE article to still be placed ona FR Server, but only a section (excerpt) of the article is viewable AT A TIME? Does that satisfy Fair Use?

341 posted on 04/09/2004 6:29:35 AM PDT by Fury
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To: Fury
Oops. Saw Jim's comments on frames made prior.

But of course this is all done as some sort concerted effort. One need only look at the BS that occurred concerning the WHOIS record for FR. Someone most definitely made a call to complain about that...

342 posted on 04/09/2004 6:34:35 AM PDT by Fury
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To: John Robinson
That's a very informative website in regards to the history of fair use. Here's one of my favorite sites: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

BTW, how does Google get by with caching news articles? It seem to me that would be a violation also.
343 posted on 04/09/2004 6:37:11 AM PDT by Nita Nupress
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To: sweetliberty
Yes, so do I. :-)
344 posted on 04/09/2004 6:38:58 AM PDT by Nita Nupress
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To: Jim Robinson
Sounds like the babies are coordinating their activities.
345 posted on 04/09/2004 6:39:00 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: The Old Hoosier; Jim Robinson; Nita Nupress
"what about the possibility of FR becoming a licensed news outlet so that FR can reproduce the content in its entirety?"

"That costs money"

Of course it does. So does a LexusNexus account. So does everything else that it takes to keep this site up and running for the purpose for which it was intended. And what is the point of spending a fortune to run a site if it gets to the point where it can no longer function as it was intended to function? We just have to find a way; that's all. Jim seems to think it is a possibility. I'm sure if a lot of regular donors to FR were to up our donations by even $3-5, we could manage the added cost. I don't believe the perpetrators of this attack should be allowed to go unchallenged. In fact, I think we owe it to ourselves and to the lurkers and future FReepers to do whatever it takes to throw it right back at them while at the same time getting ourselves on more secure legal footing.

346 posted on 04/09/2004 6:41:12 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: Richard Kimball
...once the original article is pulled from a web site, we will not be able to go back and research...

I've had some luck in the past using the WayBack Machine.

347 posted on 04/09/2004 6:42:39 AM PDT by DumpsterDiver
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To: Jim Robinson
Than sucking sound you hear is the "mainstream media" circling the drain. The Internet is the new source of information and that which the United Nations wants to control.
348 posted on 04/09/2004 6:43:50 AM PDT by herzo
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To: Pan_Yans Wife
Thanks. I'm getting afraid to post anything........
349 posted on 04/09/2004 6:53:39 AM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( President Bush 3-20-04))
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To: Piranha
"We can continue to link to anything we want to link to."

The problem is that even with sources that don't require registration, they pull down the original links in a matter of days or weeks. Right now we have a rich source of archived information. If John creates a program that goes back and excerpts previously posted articles, then it's gone. The links to the source will no longer exist in most cases. What would be nice would be to have document hosts on the web much like image hosts. Originals could be stored on a password protected server, but the posted links would be accesible.

350 posted on 04/09/2004 6:56:00 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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