12-hour Ceasefire in Fallujah

AFP ^ | 4/10/04

[Filibuster_60]

BAGHDAD (AFP) - The US-led coalition and insurgents in Fallujah have agreed to a 12-hour ceasefire starting Sunday 0600 GMT to pave the way for US Marines to leave the town, an Iraqi mediator said.

"The two sides have agreed to observe a 12-hour ceasefire tomorrow Sunday at 10:00 am (0600 GMT)," Hatem al-Husseini, a senior member of the Iraqi Islamic Party, told AFP.

"This will pave the way for the gradual pullout of US Marine troops from Fallujah," Husseini said after a meeting with coalition officials following his return from mediation efforts in the troubled town.

Husseini said he could "not disclose the conditions of the negotiations at this point."

A senior coalition spokesman said he could not comment on the status of negotiations, but promised that a statement would be issued early Sunday.

Another senior member of the Iraqi Islamic Party, Alaa Makki, earlier told AFP that insurgents in Fallujah had given mediators "a series of conditions for the ceasefire, including a pullout of US forces from Fallujah into the surrounding desert."

"They did not give a specific area for the pullout, but logically it would be around five kilometers," he said.

"They also asked for opening the entrances to the city to allow people as well as food and medical supply to enter easily and for people to bury their dead," he said.

The coalition has "asked for a ceasefire, for handing over those who took part in the mutilation and repeated riots."

"The demands of the two parties are logical and should be easy to satisfy," he said.

"We are all very hopeful because we have been given promises from the two sides, the only difficulty would be in the mechanism of the implementation of the ceasefire because it concerns military operations on the ground," he said.

[facedown]

We'll see...

[COEXERJ145]

A thread on this same subject just got pulled not more than 30 seconds ago.

[Asclepius]

"This will pave the way for the gradual pullout of US Marine troops from Fallujah," Husseini said after a meeting with coalition officials following his return from mediation efforts in the troubled town.

We lose.

Perhaps Kennedy was right. This really is becoming President Bush's Viet Nam.

[claudiustg]

I thought Kimmit said they weren't negotiating with these dirtballs.

[Chuckster]

Hmmmm. Let's see:

Capture an American soldier and threaten to torture him to death - coalition requests cease fire so US Marines can pull out.

Dammit, If we're not there to win bring the troops home now! We're gonna need them in CONUS now that the islamists know that we will give up this easily.

Where are men like George Patton when we need them?

[Chunga]

We lose.

Perhaps Kennedy was right. This really is becoming President Bush's Viet Nam.

Why? Because Husseini characterized the conditions of a ceasefire as benefitting the Iraqi Islamic Party?

[Filibuster_60]

By the looks of it, we have no choice. The alternative is to risk a total collapse of the Governing Council - a disaster that would completely derail the June 30 handover.

[yonif]

What good is the governing council if they are not on the US side? What good is handing over power to such a council?

[Pukin Dog]

Nope, the Marines are not going anywhere. The report is bogus.

[Filibuster_60]

I hear you. What do you propose? A military dictatorship? Martial law? We don't have enough manpower for it even if that were the plan.

Bush has only himself to blame if the GC is now comfortable in being anti-American - it's Bush who keeps insisting we'll stick to the 6/30 deadline no matter what. The GC thus thinks they have him by the balls - and they're right.

American voters take Bush's insistence as strength, the GC views it as foolish stubborness or even weakness.

I'll repeat: Bush is in a trap of his own creation.

[PattonReincarnated]

By the looks of it, we have no choice. The alternative is to risk a total collapse of the Governing Council - a disaster that would completely derail the June 30 handover.

Screw the June 30 handover. Screw the any hand over for that matter. The Governing Council lacks resolve to defeat terrorists. So they quit. That certainly doesn't show a desire to have their own nation. This isn't America's fault. We are dealing with a people that have no desire to be self-governing. They deserve exactly the what they are willing to work for.

These scum are not ready to be in the 21st century, so let's send them back to the 7th century where they belong. Perhaps they can be closer to Mohammad that way.

[yonif]

There should be a transitional government that is friendly to us. If that does not occur, it defeats the purpose. But who cares anyways about the June deadline. Even when the transition occurs, the US will find that it will be just like it was before, a necessity that their forces remain there. I think it was stupid to annouce that deadline.

[claudiustg]

What's Bremmer been doing? He's supposed to be setting up the civilian side of things, no?

[SauronOfMordor]

The alternative is to risk a total collapse of the Governing Council - a disaster that would completely derail the June 30 handover

I fail to see where this would be a disaster. Now, a "Governing Council" that hands over control to jihaadists 30 seconds after we pull out -- THAT is what I would call a disaster. If the Governing Council is that weak, it's best we discover that now instead of later

[mrsmith]

It's not your fault if people believe this.

You put AFP for the source and the article mentions AFP several times!

[Filibuster_60]

Are you all but admitting that our troops have been dying in vain? I hope that's not the case - though with each passing day I find it a little harder to convince myself it isn't. If even the most pro-western elements of Iraq won't help us, we're totally screwed.

Bush would have only himself to blame for staking so much on nonexistent Iraqi goodwill.

[jpsb]

This is a lie. I do not believe it who is AFP?

[saquin]

I believe this particular Council Member is talking out of his ass. I can't see our military being stupid enough to agree to such a thing.

"Iraqi officials in Baghdad reportedly said insurgent leaders had offered through intermediaries to lay down their arms if the Marines withdraw three kilometers -- about 1.8 miles -- from the city, but it seemed unlikely that U.S. military officials would make such a deal.

Marine officials here expressed deep skepticism that the talks in a local mosque would yield any results. Their troops were impatient to plunge back into fray after a two-day lull in fighting that the U.S. military have already observed to permit tens of thousands of women and children to leave the embattled city, about 35 miles west of Baghdad.

"Given the virulent nature of the enemy, the prospect of some city father walking in and getting Joe Jihadi to give himself up is pretty slim," said Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, who commands the 5th Marine Battalion here, using the Arabic word for Islamic warrior.

"That's fine," Byrne added, "because they'll get whipped up, come out fighting again and get mowed down."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1200-2004Apr10.html

[SauronOfMordor]

If even the most pro-western elements of Iraq won't help us, we're totally screwed.

Only if we refuse to look at the primary objective.

The primary objective is the Iraqis not giving aid, comfort, or sanctuary to Jihaadists wanting to attack the US. We need to stay focused on this.

If the primary objective can be accomplished by making the Iraqis like us, then that's cool. If the primary objective has to be accomplished via the Carthage Option, then that's cool too. Whatever works

[Filibuster_60]

Announcing the deadline in the first place was a mistake. . . sticking to it as if trying to revive a rotting corpse may go down as a monumental blunder.

It's time for us to take a long, hard look at how the whole "war on terror" is being fought. There's something totally wrong with the picture if the words of an old ayatollah (Sistani) who hasn't left his house for a decade carry more weight than all the firepower of the mightiest military in world history.

At least it's a good wakeup call for everyone who, this time last year, thought that wars can be won quickly and cheaply.

[yonif]

Sadly, the ideology calling for the murder of Americans is not only located in Iraq, but is surrounding Iraq and causing people to go to Iraq to murder Americans. We must target that ideology.

[jpsb]

from another thread

To quote General Lee

"Well we are here, the enemy is here and we are engaged. Why leave?"

One thing we have going for us is that it is the USMC that is engaged with the enemy, I can't think of any time the USMC, broke off a large engagement with enemy forces. Closest that comes to mind was Choosen Resvior in Korea, when US forces were over run by Chicoms. All but the Marines. They fought there way back to friendly lines bringing all their dead and equipment with them. "Retreat hell, we are attacking in a diferent direction".

The Marines will not take kindly to orders to withdraw, and no Commander in Chief would ever issue such orders to Marines. There is history going for us in this battle and history has a way of winning.

[pt17]

Perhaps Kennedy was right. This really is becoming President Bush's Viet Nam

I am not ready to say that yet or that we're about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory; however, I'm beginning to wonder.

[Dark Glasses and Corncob Pipe]

"What good is the governing council if they are not on the US side? What good is handing over power to such a council?"

This voluntary 'purge' of the GC might turn out to be a good thing...like former RINO Jeffords leaving the Republican Party.

[Filibuster_60]

True this hasn't been confirmed. But what has become obvious is that our "friends" on the Governing Council don't look that friendly anymore, and given how we've painted ourselves into a corner as far as the 6/30 deadline goes, we further alienate them at our great peril.

[international american]

"The Marines will not take kindly to orders to withdraw, and no Commander in Chief would ever issue such orders to Marines. There is history going for us in this battle and history has a way of winning."

BTTT

[jpsb]

Agreed, screw them, a number Freepers were telling us two days ago How smart it was to let the IGC bevome a player in this. I saw allowing IGC a say as a huge mistake. I think events have proven me correct.

But I do not believe the Marines are going to retreat. No freakin way.

[Filibuster_60]

I see stalemate as one possibility. It's unthinkable for the Marines to give up ground just as it's unthinkable for the insurgents to give themselves up. . . that leaves stalemate as the only thing to look for.

[Filibuster_60]

Screw Bush then - he's the one who repeats his intention to hand over power to the council on 6/30 at least once per press conference.

[claudiustg]

There's no need to panic. The situation is not all that bad compared to jams we've been in before. Someone mentioned the Chosen reservoir. There was also the matter of Syngman Rhee. We brought him in from outside. He had no political capital in country and he was a constant source of trouble. He struggled with him until Park finally put him out and became President for life. Then there was the Philippines...

We've been here before and managed to bungle our way through to a fair degree of success.

[rodguy911]

It was my understanding that we did not want to attack during the easter weekend. Also a high muslim holy day. Wait till Easter is over and see what happens.

[yonif]

I saw the unfriendlyness of the council way before this..

REPATRIATION: Iraqi Council Weighs Return of Jews, Rejecting It So Far

Israel not on U.S. list of 63 countries eligible to compete for billions in Iraqi reconstruction

Iraqi gov`t minister: we won`t let Israel exploit economic liberalization in order to penetrate Iraq

[don-o]

"This will pave the way for the gradual pullout of US Marine troops from Fallujah," Husseini said after a meeting with coalition officials following his return from mediation efforts in the troubled town.

That is what he must tell his people, so he can stay alive for a while longer.

I guarantee, the truth is way different.

I am purely guessing, but, it's the last chance for evacuation. Before we go to Cruise City, etc.

[demlosers]

But I do not believe the Marines are going to retreat. No freakin way.

The Marines are not going anywhere: Fallujah insurgents offer cease-fire if U.S. forces pull out of city.

[jpsb]

Well, I am not a big fan of W. I totally support this war effort if we fight it to win. W and company better wake up real quick to the fact that this is a real war. This is not a Vietnam or even a Korea, this is a real war and these people want to kill all of us, everywhere.

[jpsb]

Before we give power back to the Iraqis, they must be denazified. If this doesn't occur, and Militant Islam has its way in the minds of the people there, the new state will fail, and new terror will originate from it.

A big BUMP to that yonif. I only saw a few days ago the danger the IGC could become. hat's off to you my friend.

[mrsmith]

"...this particular Council Member ..."
He's not a Council Member, it's just some aide.

Of course our military isn't going to agree to any such thing, and no one expects them to.

AFP is good for some very silly threads.

[Filibuster_60]

How exactly do you target an ideology?

[paul51]

What good is the governing council if they are not on the US side?

Exactly the reason to let them all quit or just disband it and impose martial law. The savages aren't ready for self governing

[saquin]

He's not a Council Member, it's just some aide.

Oh, you're right. I didn't even notice that. For some reason I thought it was a council member.

And his party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, is a Sunni party and is the Iraqi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

He's engaging in wishful thinking if he thinks the Marines are gonna pull back from Fallujah. The jihadists are trapped. They will stay trapped until they are defeated.

[jpsb]

You target those that espouse the ideology, and whose that display the symbols of the ideology.

[yonif]

Go after the institutions spreading it. Schools, Mosques, Airwaves (media), etc whether it be by arresting those who promote the ideology, not just those who act upon it. Go after, more importantly, the sources of funds (stop trading with Arab and Islamic countries, isolate them). It isn't enough to kill the terrorists, or to target terrorism. Terrorism is a product of the ideology, and as long as the ideology continues to reside, it won't matter how many terrorists you kill, as more will be quick to take the empty ranks. We have not done this yet.

We didn't defeat communism by invading the Soviet Union. We did a number of things, including military action. We deligtimized the ideology, called it evil, recognized it as an enemy (while nowadays, we refuse to declare the word militant Islam to describe these terrorists, because of political correctness).

We didn't defeat Nazism by killing all the Germans so that they would stop being Nazis. We had things like the International Textbook movement, radio broadcasts, etc. to remove this cancer from the population.

This is what needs to be done, as well as fight terrorism. We must drain the swamp. But as long as these regimes in the Arab and Islamic world continue to practice, support, incite, or harbor this ideology and send off terrorists to murder Americans, Israelis, and other non-Muslims, terrorism will never end. And as long as we trade with them (e.g. oil) they will continue to donate to the cause of our enemies.

[rodguy911]

How do you target an ideology?--good question--You do the same thing the Israelis have done. Hit them when they hit you. Only we should hit them much harder. After all that's all they understand. Sooner or later they will run out of wack-jobs that want to visit Allah.BJesides if we ever do establish a fair-representative govt. most people will want in not out.

[paul51]

that leaves stalemate as the only thing to look for

I don't think there will be a stalemate between the marines and the savages. The marines will kill what ever number is necessary to pacify the vipers nest

[PattonReincarnated]

Are you all but admitting that our troops have been dying in vain?

WRONG! I have never said anything about our troops dying in vain. You got me completely wrong. I would appreciate your humble appology. In the mean time, I will tell you what I think.

The military is in Iraq because Iraq represented a threat to America. Our military is killing the right people and eliminating that threat. Our military should continue to kill until the threat is completely eliminated. The Islamic nut-cases are so frickin' stupid that they are people coming from Iran, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria to join to be killed. It doesn't get any better than when the enemy comes to you to get killed. Our troops are not dying in vain - our enemy is dying in vain.

There is a second reason why we are in Iraq. It's because Iraq is next to Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Saudi. We are in a very, very long war against terrorism. The war will not stop in Iraq. We need to be in Iraq to complete the war. Our troops are not dying in vain - our enemy will die in vain, not only in Iraq, but in many other places very near Iraq

You write that Bush would have only himself to blame for staking so much on nonexistent Iraqi goodwill. First, I don't think Bush has ever staked anything on Iraqi goodwill. The primary objective of being in Iraq was not giving these scumbags their own country, it has always been to eliminate a threat to America. If we are achieving that mission, we have success.

Bush has to play the democracy card with the Iraqis. But any sane individual knows that the Iraqis have to be willing to have a Democracy. The lack of will of the Iraqis is an Iraqi problem, not a Bush problem. If the democracy card was not played, there would be a signficant question raised until the end of time. That question is, "Wouldn't it have saved lives by establishing a democracy in Iraq that would serve as a positive example of reform to the region?" Establishing a democracy has nothing to do our troops being killed. Establishing a democracy is a poltical process, that would perhaps make it easier to maintain our position in Iraq and put pressure on other nations.

Personally, I don't think Muslims can live in peace. I don't think Muslims can live within a democracy. I am willing to have my mind changed, and have I have gone along with this notion that Iraq can be self-governing. But it seems that these spineless cowards are proving me correct. It doesn't mean that we were wrong to try. It doesn't mean our troops are dying in vain. As long as we are killing the enemy and we have a conviction to keep killing the enemy our troops will not die in vain.

[Antoninus]

This "report" is from AFP and is super-duper slanted. That is, it is a steaming load of propaganda. There is a kernel of truth here, but make no mistake--the maggot-infested vermin are NOT dictating the terms and our Marines aren't going anywhere.

[Antoninus]

True this hasn't been confirmed. But what has become obvious is that our "friends" on the Governing Council don't look that friendly anymore, and given how we've painted ourselves into a corner as far as the 6/30 deadline goes, we further alienate them at our great peril.

Actually, the 6/30 deadline has painted the vermin into a corner--which is why they're playing the "insurrection" card now. If they were smart, they would have waited until mid-June to try it. But I guess we were hunting down their leaders too quickly and al-Sadr was about to be joining Saddam in the klink. It was now or never for the thugs.

[JasonC]

The deadline is not a problem. There is indeed a problem due to Iraqi uncertainty about whether our policy will last beyond November - not exactly helped by the go wobbly panic being peddled here - but that is the only serious problem.

The tactical problem is simply that the Sunnis on the council watch Al-Jaz and believe its lies, and so do their constituents. They think we are massacring women and children and blowing up mosques, until they see for themselves we aren't.

While such impressions are still in place, they can't afford to be seen supporting our actions. Can't afford it domestically - it would simply make their influence over Sunnis nominally under them, evaporate. They are not trying to protect the terrorists. They have no desire to.

But they also have no direct power themselves, through any state or effective army or police, to go stop the terrorists or to hand them over. The terrorists are in control of the areas they are in. Everyone actually with them is under their guns, and to defy them is to be executed immediately.

So a Sunni council member has only two assets. One, political legitimacy with Sunnis not immediately under the terrorists' guns. And two, pull with us. We've got plenty of direct power. We like to use it to remove the terrorists' "gun control". If it weren't for the perception and propaganda problem, they'd just sign off on our use of it, we'd get rid of the guns, and the Sunnis would have access to new potential constituents currently under the terrorists' thumbs.

But with that problem, they face a choice of approving of our use of power and losing their own pull with rank and file Sunnis, or trying to veto it (and looking impotent if we don't listen), but leaving the terrorists and their guns in charge of most of their own people.

What we are doing with the pause is giving them a chance to negotiate the terrorists out, to have them handed over. But they aren't going to be handed over. They aren't under anybody's control, to be handed over. And the council people can't arrest them - it takes a regiment of Marines to get close, and they don't have any regiments of Marines at their own disposal.

What can happen in the meantime is the blame for the situation can refocus on the terrorists, for not heeding the council member's calls to turn over the perpetrators of last week's attacks. And there is time for people to see the Al-Jaz lies are lies, on the ground. And constituents of the council can get out from under the terrorists by leaving the battle area. All can be accomplished during a short pause.

After which we can turn the Marines loose again and go get the terrorists. The terrorists can't last a month against the Marines. They will be shot to atoms. The city and people around them will not save them. And they cannot get out. Their only effective weapon is back door political pressure on our use of force, which stems directly from their highly effective propaganda operations, which we are doing little if anything to counter. But this is a weapon of limited utility. It is mostly bluff.