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Research: Pig Manure Can Become Crude Oil
Yahoo ^ | 04/13/04 | JIM PAUL

Posted on 04/13/2004 10:24:01 AM PDT by m1-lightning

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To: Hodar
I guess my concern is that the amount of energy needed to process the manure is more than it produces.

I am leaving the ethanol industry ( on the road to much with all the plants being built!) and I know some of the problems in the renewable energy field.

If this process is manageable on a large scale and if the energy efficiency is right, than I foresee this taking off rather quickly!

To be honest, I would love to talk with some one with an engineering background on this! Might be a career opportunity if my new job doesn't work out!
101 posted on 04/13/2004 12:21:18 PM PDT by redgolum
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To: Ditto
"The prime example I'm aware of is the Hyperion Wastewater treatment plant in Los Angeles"



Thanks for the info. I'll look that up.
102 posted on 04/13/2004 12:22:48 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: CedarDave
We may indeed be on our way to marginalizing the Arabs, though not for 20 years or more.

While I whole heartedly support your statements, and am very pleased (on a personal note) to hear of your recommendation of Mr Riodan; I must disagree with your time table.

Given the price of oil at ~$30+, the national interest in relieving our dependance on (hostile) foreign nations, and the profit potential that TDP provides ... I think that 20 years is pretty pessimistic. Might I venture that the answer is closer to 5-10?

103 posted on 04/13/2004 12:23:20 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: Iowa Granny
.
104 posted on 04/13/2004 12:23:34 PM PDT by Iowa Granny (Impersonating June Cleaver since 1967)
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To: Hodar
I direct my question in Post #98 to you as well.
105 posted on 04/13/2004 12:27:30 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by politics.)
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To: redgolum
I guess my concern is that the amount of energy needed to process the manure is more than it produces.

That's the case in any production of fuel. But, at 85% effeciency, it's in the right range of pumping and processing raw crude. Plus, we would be getting rid of millions of tons of waste saving us money. It's not profitable yet (no industry is at the beginning) but it has the potential of being very profitable.

106 posted on 04/13/2004 12:28:20 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: redgolum
I guess my concern is that the amount of energy needed to process the manure is more than it produces.

This was the Achilles heel to the process, until Changing World Technologies came up with a brainstorm. Getting the water out of the material has been the most inefficient part of the process. It used to take MORE energy to dehydrate the material, than the material would produce. Here's the spin.

Heat the material to 300 F, under about 350 psi. Quickly remove the pressure, and the water/steam will immediately leave the material - reclaim the super-heated steam to pre-heat the next batch; then cool the steam and you have sterile water.

The rest of the process can now be done at much higher temperatures/pressures to do the 'cracking' process. The water is gone, and instead of burning energy to dehydrate, you used the water to efficient pre-heat the next batch. Problem solved.

107 posted on 04/13/2004 12:29:50 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: Carry_Okie
What do you know about the byproducts of combustion in the use of refined products from these biodiesel compounds?

Nothing, unfortunately; I'm not a chemical engineer. Obviously nitrates could be as much a problem in diesel exhaust as sulfur is in current diesel products. It needs to be looked at as do the other byproducts in fuel from this new process. However the efficiency of the process, if it holds up, will allow for additional refining of finished products to remove harmful contaminants without making the end products too expensive to use.

Having said all that, it just seems too good to be true. Nonetheless, I'd consider putting a few dollars (just a few mind you!) into the company if it was public.

108 posted on 04/13/2004 12:32:30 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: Hodar
The sooner the better, by far!
109 posted on 04/13/2004 12:34:32 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: biblewonk
Do you have any financial ties to the windmill industry? Stock ownership, perhaps, or working for a manufacturer or supplier? Are you a lobbyist trying to get the taxpayer subsidy reinstated, or own land where you want a windfarm to be built?

It seems so unlikely for any conservative to be an advocate like you are for windmills, an alternative source of energy that isn't economic unless taxpayers are forced to pay the producers more than the market price for any electricity produced.

110 posted on 04/13/2004 12:36:28 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Is this process 85% efficient? If that is right, it beats any other "renewable energy" in existence. Anybody got a source of good info on this? (I am a chemical engineer, so this sounds just crazy enough it might be feasible).

As far as being profitable, I worked for 5 years in ethanol and most of the time the companies I worked for/with did not make a profit. Talking with some of the old hands, if the subsidy was removed the ethanol industry would disappear. As it is, many of the small plants won't make it.

However, the economics are improving. The cattle market is up, so the demand for DDG (dried distillers grains, cattle feed) a byproduct is up, so maybe the ethanol plants will start being solidly in the black soon.
111 posted on 04/13/2004 12:36:28 PM PDT by redgolum
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To: m1-lightning
..another *GOLDMINE* for the Kennedys'. :|
112 posted on 04/13/2004 12:37:13 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :)
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To: m1-lightning; CedarDave
None of the above! Wrong on ALL COUNTS!!! Cedar Dave cleared it all up in reply #86, above:"though not for 20 years or more."

In other words... all this dreamy speculation is irrelivant for at least the next "20 years or more." By that time the phoney energy crisis will be resolved in some other, more conventional way. It happens repeatedly!!!

The laws of thermodynamics, economics and common sense make all this hoplessly laughable on it's face!!! (plus the timing)

113 posted on 04/13/2004 12:37:18 PM PDT by SierraWasp (John Fallujah Kerry! Now we REALLY know what HE meant, by "Bring... It... On!!!" He sure DID!!!)
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To: CedarDave
The way I see it, the results of that question might determine if this class of products becomes a general replacement for petrochemicals or a niche market substitute. Too often researchers (and investors) get too excited about the gozinta without addressing the gozouta. Once the money for production is committed, the momentum cannot be ignored, but then, neither can the consequences.

Witness MTBE. Both the major oil companies and the EPA knew that MTBE contaminated groundwater as early as 1981 and they went ahead anyway. You can thank the Natural Resources Defense Council for that.

114 posted on 04/13/2004 12:39:34 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by politics.)
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To: redgolum
http://www.changingworldtech.com/pdf/GenConfLasVegas3_3_04.pdf

This is from their website. I'm not a chemical engineer, so it will probably mean a lot more to you than me.
115 posted on 04/13/2004 12:42:15 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Carry_Okie
I guess my concern is that the amount of energy needed to process the manure is more than it produces.

Absolutely nothing. But you are comparing bio-diesel with TDP; which are two totally and completely seperate processes. They literally have nothing in common, other than they can produce a fuel source.

Thermal De-Polymerization is a process in which just about any long hydrocarbon molecule is broken down into smaller molecules. Like in nature, the components are time, pressure and heat.

Biodiesels, on the other hand are usually fancy names for refined french fry oil. These are typically vegetable oil derivatives, which contain various ingredients for flavoring, preservatives and color. What these various 'ingredients' do, when used as a combustable fuel is something I cannot comment on; because I simply do not know.

However, chemically speaking, TDP uses the SAME ingredients that mother nature uses. The process is just sped up a few billion-fold.

116 posted on 04/13/2004 12:42:32 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: m1-lightning
There is irony here...

"Irony" was the first word that popped into my head when I saw the headline.

117 posted on 04/13/2004 12:43:32 PM PDT by Redcloak (Over 13,000 served.)
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To: m1-lightning
The only mental image I get is a gas tank stuffed with Democrat politicians.
118 posted on 04/13/2004 12:47:00 PM PDT by Old Professer
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To: Hodar
While I whole heartedly support your statements, and am very pleased (on a personal note) to hear of your recommendation of Mr Riodan; I must disagree with your time table.

The 1980's and 1990's were the best years for GRI. They did wonderful research in areas of natural gas exploration, processing, transportation and end use. It was mainly funded by a FERC surcharge on pipeline gas until the era of deregulation when the pipelines successfully fought for its removal. Some of the products that came out the research are in common use today by industry and GRI research in coal-bed methane technology, which allowed development and production of that gas, significantly expanded our domestic natural gas reserves.

119 posted on 04/13/2004 12:47:47 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: Dog Gone; newgeezer
Do you have any financial ties to the windmill industry? Stock ownership, perhaps, or working for a manufacturer or supplier? Are you a lobbyist trying to get the taxpayer subsidy reinstated, or own land where you want a windfarm to be built?

No, not at all. Neither is newgeezer.

It seems so unlikely for any conservative to be an advocate like you are for windmills, an alternative source of energy that isn't economic unless taxpayers are forced to pay the producers more than the market price for any electricity produced.

It's a very small supplement. Wind is not the most expensive form of electricity by the way. All forms of power are supplemented in some way.

120 posted on 04/13/2004 12:48:29 PM PDT by biblewonk (The only book worth reading, and reading, and reading.)
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To: Hodar
I've been following this Changing World Technologies story since it came out several months ago. Is the Carthage, MO facility in production? If so, are there specific production results available? I understand this facility and the prototype on the east coast some place was to be about 85% efficient. That would mean 85% of what goes in comes out as a useful/sellable product.
121 posted on 04/13/2004 12:49:44 PM PDT by Techster
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To: Hodar
I think you gave me a mixed and partial answer. Are you saying that the class of chemicals produced by TDP are the same brew of paraffins as are found in crude oil?
122 posted on 04/13/2004 12:50:12 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by politics.)
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To: m1-lightning
North Carolina, Missouri, Iowa will have membership on OPEC if this technology is good.

Any John Wayne experts out there? I recall the Duke had created a recipe to make oil something like this but can't recall the details.
123 posted on 04/13/2004 12:51:28 PM PDT by Swiss
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To: Techster
I live about an hour east of Carthage in Springfield, and yes the plant is up and running and from what I understand it is running about as expected. The turkey processing plant is very pleased with how smoothly the operation is going and how much waste they are able to simply move across the street to be processed.
124 posted on 04/13/2004 12:52:36 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Hmm, looks interesting. Not enough info to get an idea of any specifics, but interesting.

If this was used for industrial or municipal waste, there MAY be a concern with the levels of heavy metals and inorganic compounds from something like an old computer. The EPA and the state regulatory people would be all over this like stink on ..... you know.

I might have to look into these guys. I have heard quit a few stories and magic cures, but these guys might just have something here.
125 posted on 04/13/2004 12:57:26 PM PDT by redgolum
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To: SierraWasp; Grampa Dave; biblewonk
HOGWASH!!! Alternative energy is PIG MANURE!!!

Quote of the day.

Kerry-Nader manure can light the world....with bull__it.

With enough subsidies, we can make rubbing two sticks of wood together an "Alternative Energy Source".

126 posted on 04/13/2004 12:58:38 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (One by one, in small groups or in whole armies, we don't care how we do, but we're gonna getcha)
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To: Hodar
Ment to ping you also. See my previous posts.
127 posted on 04/13/2004 12:58:45 PM PDT by redgolum
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To: Swiss
I dunno about John Wayne, but this story brings to mind the Fremen rendering tanks from "Dune".

"Your pig crap will mix with our pig crap."
128 posted on 04/13/2004 1:01:02 PM PDT by Betis70
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To: SierraWasp
I have to agree with your timetable on this. As existing domestic oil and gas fields play out (even following use of secondary recovery techniques like water and CO2) and expansion to new plays is fought tooth and nail by the enviro-wackos, oil companies in the US will look for new sources of oil to feed crude pipelines and existing refineries. It may well be a niche source initially, but could become much more important in the future as the third world competes with existing sources of foreign oil for their industrial expansion. Also, I think that the process could be useful in refining tar sands and oil shales with are abundant in the western US but are expensive to refine and have waste disposal problems.
129 posted on 04/13/2004 1:01:43 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: junta
Well, one place to get the intense heat would be from coal, especially since the energy represented by the coal in Illinois exceeds that found in the Saudi oil reserves.
130 posted on 04/13/2004 1:05:54 PM PDT by Meldrim
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To: m1-lightning
...And then one day Jed was shooting at some food,
And out of it's rear came a bubbling crude.
Oil that is!!!
Pig-farmer's Pepsi!!!
Well the next thing you know Ol' Jed's a billionaire,
The kin folks said Jed move away from there,
Said off shore is the place you ought to be,
So you can outsource your farm to a bunch of Vietnamese.



131 posted on 04/13/2004 1:06:58 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: BOBTHENAILER; SierraWasp
I will start believing in alternative energy as a reliable energy source when one of them is available across the country.

Then, it must be cheaper than oil/gasoline and doesn't require us to $ub$idize it with taxes on gasoline and other energy.

Since the Days of Jimmy Carter, I have seen more BS and now PS about alternative energy than any real alternative energy.

When, someone develops an alternative energy source that will be available across the nation, is cheaper than Opecker Oil and more cost effective than Opecker Oil, I will invest a lot of money in that venture. In the meantime I don't invest in eco fairy tales.
132 posted on 04/13/2004 1:09:01 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (America can't afford a 9/10 John F'onda al Querry after 9/11.)
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To: m1-lightning
I think U of I just found their new mascot.
133 posted on 04/13/2004 1:09:18 PM PDT by RWR8189 (Its Morning in America Again!)
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To: m1-lightning
The irony of the possibility of destroying Islam's economy by using the feces of one of its most reviled animals is outstanding.
134 posted on 04/13/2004 1:10:31 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: m1-lightning
Do'h!
135 posted on 04/13/2004 1:11:36 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: Rebelbase
Any liberals lurking that we can use? The produce the most BS, CS and hogwash of anyone around.
136 posted on 04/13/2004 1:13:09 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: Grampa Dave; SierraWasp
In the meantime I don't invest in eco fairy tales.

Well said and summed up neatly.

137 posted on 04/13/2004 1:14:53 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (One by one, in small groups or in whole armies, we don't care how we do, but we're gonna getcha)
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To: Grampa Dave; BOBTHENAILER
In the meantime I don't invest in eco fairy tales.

Maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to listen to them now and again.

138 posted on 04/13/2004 1:20:54 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: biblewonk
Uh, that's peak gigawatts. Most of the time, those contraptions just sit there. (The ones that aren't broken, that is.)
139 posted on 04/13/2004 1:29:32 PM PDT by snopercod (When the people are ready, a master will appear.)
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To: CedarDave; BOBTHENAILER; SierraWasp; Shermy
They are the same old/same old fairy tales with new actors and a different name for the fairy tale. The scam is the same.

We have been hearing about how great solar, wind, fecal matter and electric cars are for decades. All of the electric cars/trucks/buses bought in our city/county are in an impound not being used.

This morning we had a little problem with one of our wonderful low flush toilets, the second one in that bathroom in less than ten years. Low flush toilets are a prime example of eco fairy tales that ended up to be real stinkers and messes.

Later this year, Toyota/Lexus will come out with hybrid powered full size SUVs. If that works out, Toyota will probably be a great investment, and any company that enabled them to have this full sized power plant. As usual, I will wait to see before I invest.

140 posted on 04/13/2004 1:30:45 PM PDT by Grampa Dave (America can't afford a 9/10 John F'onda al Querry after 9/11.)
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To: biblewonk
No, not at all. Neither is newgeezer.

C'mon. We're not the only windpower advocates on FR.







(Are we? ;O)

141 posted on 04/13/2004 1:30:50 PM PDT by newgeezer (...until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.)
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To: farmfriend
BTTT!!!!!!
142 posted on 04/13/2004 1:31:13 PM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: snopercod
Uh, that's peak gigawatts.

True

Most of the time, those contraptions just sit there.

False

(The ones that aren't broken, that is.)

Sometimes they need maintenance, just like every other power plant on the planet.

143 posted on 04/13/2004 1:37:45 PM PDT by biblewonk (The only book worth reading, and reading, and reading.)
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To: newgeezer
LOL! I think there were 2 or 3 more out of 10,000 or so.
144 posted on 04/13/2004 1:39:12 PM PDT by biblewonk (The only book worth reading, and reading, and reading.)
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To: Grampa Dave
Low flush toilets are a prime example of eco fairy tales that ended up to be real stinkers and messes.

Huh? Happens with your's, too?

145 posted on 04/13/2004 1:43:47 PM PDT by CedarDave (Democrat campaign strategy: Tell a lie often enough today and it becomes truth tomorrow.)
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To: Hodar; SierraWasp
Start by sealing the container, and heating it to ~400 F

Let's see, ignoring the cost of the heating equipment and the ASME pressure vessel, it would take roughly 106 BTUs of heat to heat up a ton of pig shit to 400F and an equal amount to heat up the pressure vessel. It would probably take another million or four to get it up to 600F and hold it there for long enough for the reaction to take place.

So just to heat up 2000# of the mess would cost from $50 to $125 in fuel costs alone. Fuel cost calculator

How much oil did you say a ton of pig shit would make?

(The above analysis ignores the labor costs of the thousands of pig shit shovelers.)

146 posted on 04/13/2004 1:44:47 PM PDT by snopercod (When the people are ready, a master will appear.)
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To: Grampa Dave
Instead of hearing about fairy tales, why don't you go to the website, read independent studies (like this one from U of I) and come see the actual plant currently running in Carthage.

Most of these scams go away because the science isn't there to back it up. But sadly, most of the doubters on this site don't care about "science" or "facts", they just can't imagine that this can be true. Probably the same treatment "electric lights" and "aeroplanes" got during their early days.
147 posted on 04/13/2004 1:45:02 PM PDT by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Techster
I understand this facility and the prototype on the east coast some place was to be about 85% efficient. That would mean 85% of what goes in comes out as a useful/sellable product.

From what I have read, the efficiency is a basis of how much power (fuel) is required to run the process versus how much power (fuel) is produced. Thus, for an 85% efficient plant, this means that 15% of the fuel produced needs to be used by the plant.

As for what percentage of the product is useful/sellable ... that would depend upon the input material. In the case of turkey offal, the waste products are water, fertilizer and various grades of oil.

148 posted on 04/13/2004 1:47:08 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: Final Authority
Here's a quick rundown on the Thermal Depolymerzation done at the Turkey Guts into oil program.

http://www.changingworldtech.com/pdf/NaturalGasTechConf2_11_04.pdf

These guys have gone from a pilot plant to a production plant. I just have not seen it expressed enough in various literature to believe it totally yet. But the pig manure thing sounds like an extremely similar project.

The upshot of all of this is turn organic garbage into minerals, water and oil. Any organic garbage. Tires, landfills, paper, animals...anything. The only changes in the process is how long to do the different stages and of course the mix of the output of water, minerals and oil. They were even talking about using this process for circuit boards. Gee, just talking about is exciting. Can you imagine a change in our culture if landfills could efficiently be turned into oil producers? How about sewage treatment plants? Those mounds of millions of tires?

Heck, I'm sounding like a commercial.

By the way, the pilot plant was turning turkey guts into oil for about $15 dollars/barrel and they think that a real production facility could do it for $7, and this oil is blonde and sweet, not black and full of other stuff (but I think that just may be the turkey guts).

Better stop here.

DK
149 posted on 04/13/2004 1:49:41 PM PDT by Dark Knight
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To: Carry_Okie
Are you saying that the class of chemicals produced by TDP are the same brew of paraffins as are found in crude oil?

According to the article published by Discover magazine, and supported by the experts in TDP ... yes; that is exactly what I'm stating.

The article may be found here.

150 posted on 04/13/2004 1:53:22 PM PDT by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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