Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Scot’s vision of Islamic Europe is condemned as ‘alarmist’
The Herald ^ | 13 April 2004 | Keith Sinclair

Posted on 04/13/2004 2:36:57 PM PDT by MegaSilver

NIALL Ferguson, the controversial Scots historian, has run into yet another academic spat over his claim that increasing numbers of Muslim immigrants could lead to "the death of Europe" within 50 years.

Two leading authors claimed that Mr Ferguson's comments, made in a newspaper article this week, were "alarmist" and "ridiculous".

Mr Ferguson had said Muslims were poised to "colonise" Europe and transform the continent into "a hybrid called Eurabia". He warned that Muslim colonies would "proliferate" in coming decades because of falling birthrates throughout Europe and the likelihood that most new immigrants would be Muslims.

Writing in the Sunday Times, Mr Ferguson said Europe was poised to become the world's greatest importer of people and that it was highly likely that a majority of new immigrants would be Muslims.

Claiming that unease about the cultural consequences of this extended far beyond the likes of the British National party, he said: "Something very big is happening here. Indeed, there are those who believe it portends, if not the death of Europe, then its mutation into a hybrid called Eurabia."

Mr Ferguson, who works at New York University and is due to take up a post at Harvard University later this year, claimed prophecies that declining European fertility and immigration from Muslim countries could transform the continent had gained credibility since 9/11. He added that Europe's fastest-growing neighbours were countries which were predominantly Muslim, such as Algeria, Egypt and Turkey.

"In the face of such a demographic revolution, western Europe's immigration policies resemble dykes built to stop a tsunami," said Mr Ferguson.

"In any case, what will be left of those policies if, as seems quite possible, Turkey is admitted to the EU in the next phase of enlargement? In short, a youthful Muslim society to the south and east of the Mediterranean is poised to colonise a senescent Europe to the north and west."

Mr Ferguson added that the prospect that such colonies would "almost certainly proliferate" in the coming decades takes on a double significance when it is considered alongside the decline in European Christianity.

He added: "A creeping Islamicisation of a decadent Christendom is only one of the conceivable scenarios: while the old Europeans get even older and their religious faith gets even weaker, the Muslim colonies within their cities get larger and more overt in their religious observance."

However, Angus Calder, the Edinburgh-based historian, said Mr Ferguson was seeking to alarm and shock, while Neal Ascherson, the author and journalist, accused him of "playing along with fundamentalist panic".

Mr Calder said yesterday: "Ferguson is a clever man but his basic position tells me he has taken free market liberalism to an insane pitch. I would not deny that it could happen but I think he is being alarmist. "He is definitely not a racist but he is a historian who fizzes with ideas, not all of them considered long and hard enough."

Mr Ascherson said: "The idea that they (Muslims) are coming to get us, that they will invade, settle and conquer us, is ridiculous. He is having fun, pulling our legs and enjoying himself.

"This hare was started running by GK Chesterton, an English nationalist who foresaw that western Christian civilisation would disappear and that eventually London would be covered with green flags with crescents and mosques. The other difficulty about Ferguson's thesis is that Islam's population in Europe is tiny and that, although Islam may come in, it is also going out at the other end.

"Every year, possibly every day, young people are ceasing to be Islamic, so you can't raise this sort of demographic panic with only half the figures because there is an exit figure as well as an entry figure." He added: "The trouble with Ferguson is that he is stuck with the idea of multi-culturalism and people forming and staying in a community. But that is not what happens at all. More and more young Muslims in every generation become acultured or hybridised to the culture in which they are living."

The countries that make up the EU accounted for at least 14% of the world's population 100 years ago, but now make up 6% and by 2050 will be 4%, according to the United Nations.The UN forecasts the population of the EU will contract by about 7.5 million over the next 45 years. This assumes a net immigration to Europe of 6.8 million, meaning the decline in indigenous Europeans would be about 14 million.

History of conflict The civilisations of Christian Europe and the Islamic Middle East have clashed for centuries. Some significant dates are :

711: Moors from north Africa invade Spain and within five years have conquered most of the Iberian peninsula.

1095: Pope Urban II calls upon Christians to join a war against the Turks and first crusade begins. Armies march on Jerusalem from Europe, massacring the Jewish and Muslim population.

1453: The Byzantine empire of Orthodox Christians destroyed by the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks

1492: Ferdinand and Isabella expel the last of the Moorish rulers from the Iberian peninsula, uniting most of what is now Spain under their rule.

1529 and 1532: The Ottoman Empire reaches its zenith during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent. Twice he tries to the invade the Austro-Hungarian empire, being beaten by the weather after reaching the gates of Vienna

1571: At the battle of Lepanto, Ottoman naval forces clash with the combined naval power of the Pope, Spain, and Venice. A defeat effectively ends Ottoman sea power.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: eurabia; europe; immigration; islam; jihadineurope; madpoet; muslims
Funny how his detractors write him off without actually discrediting his points.
1 posted on 04/13/2004 2:37:01 PM PDT by MegaSilver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
I have to agree with him.
2 posted on 04/13/2004 2:37:58 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
I have to agree with him.

So does Pat Buchanan in his book "The Death of the West," which says basically the same thing.

3 posted on 04/13/2004 2:38:40 PM PDT by bcoffey (There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
bookmarked
4 posted on 04/13/2004 2:41:00 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Never again trust Democrats with national security!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe. The muslims are nice. There is nothing wrong in Europe.
5 posted on 04/13/2004 2:44:50 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
The demographic information is quite obvious, and there is no way to contradict it - hence the personal attacks.

There are any number of changes Europe could make - from limiting immigration to trying to force assimilation to removing much of the welfare net for immigrants (at least). But the elites that rule Europe won't allow it.

It is truly a shame that at such an important movement the body politics of Europe have largely given up on democracy and allow their elites ever greater power to move to the profoundly non-democratic European Union. Oswald Mosely would be proud.
6 posted on 04/13/2004 2:45:53 PM PDT by swilhelm73
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
"Mr Ascherson said: "The idea that they (Muslims) are coming to get us, that they will invade, settle and conquer us, is ridiculous. He is having fun, pulling our legs and enjoying himself...."

Their invasion is one of quite resettlement just as America's borders are seeing thousand of Mexicans and others slip across and "resettle", Muslims included - I am not laughing..........

7 posted on 04/13/2004 2:50:04 PM PDT by yoe (Political Correctness OUT! Profiling IN! Know your enemy!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bcoffey
I think Europe should adopt the next terrorist level system used by the French after "run, they are currently at "hide" and then there is of course "surrender" then if all else fails "collaborate". (all from this morning's cartoon) It does sound like the liberals are running scared of the facts, this guy knows his demographics. Europe must fight or die or it will enter the 7th century with the rest of Islam.
8 posted on 04/13/2004 2:52:55 PM PDT by Goreknowshowtocheat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
This might be the future of western Europe but not eastern Europe. Eastern Europeans are much more proud and would not stand for large scale immigration (ie invasion) of people whose values and beliefs are drastically different.
9 posted on 04/13/2004 3:04:10 PM PDT by Seselj
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
732. "Chuck the Hammer" defeats the Muslim army led by Abd-er Rahman at Tours. (Method to defeat-kill Leader.)

1462. "Vlad the Impaler" has prepared a suitable welcome for the returning Turkish Army. The Turks marched across Wallachia to find a land poisoned and bare in response to their invasion, and when they reached the capital of Tîrgoviste they were confronted with a forest, one kilometer by three kilometers, of impaled corpses, the Turkish and Bulgarian prisoners Vlad had taken. The Turks gave up and went home again. ( Method to defeat- Let the Muslims know what real terror was.)

10 posted on 04/13/2004 3:06:22 PM PDT by D Rider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Seselj
The slide into Dhimmitude continues.
11 posted on 04/13/2004 3:07:01 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: MegaSilver
Fergeson says:A creeping Islamicisation of a decadent Christendom is only one of the conceivable scenarios: while the old Europeans get even older and their religious faith gets even weaker, the Muslim colonies within their cities get larger and more overt in their religious observance. (Emphasis added.)

Ascherson said: More and more young Muslims in every generation become acultured or hybridised to the culture in which they are living.

The sense of these two statements are directly contradictory. Are there no social "scientists" studying this question? What does the data say?

My sense is that Europeon culture is dying under the load of socialism and cultural leftism; the Islamists (and non-fanatical Muslim youth)must see this as well. Who would you want to sign up with--a moribund culture or a dynamic (if insane) movement to achieve what your culture has aspired to for more than a millenia--the destruction of liberal society and forced conversion of the infidels?

13 posted on 04/13/2004 3:10:16 PM PDT by Faraday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ModelBreaker
Nice dhimmi.
14 posted on 04/13/2004 3:11:28 PM PDT by MegaSilver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: swilhelm73
Things will change as governments can't keep up their welfare state polices. There will be massive infaltion, depression and panic. Then out of the storm will come a leader who will point out the cause of all of Europe's problems--Islamic peoples. Then the round ups of muslems will take place. there will be re-location camps and vast peoples will vanish. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
15 posted on 04/13/2004 3:20:05 PM PDT by Hollywoodghost (Let he who would be free strike the first blow)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam
The slide into Dhimmitude continues.

It appears not to be a slide... but rather a blind leap off the edge of common sense and freedom !!!

.

16 posted on 04/13/2004 3:33:40 PM PDT by GeekDejure ( LOL = Liberals Obey Lucifer !!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Faraday
In France, the Muslim community live in ghettoes that are completely closed off from other communities. They are for all practical purposes anarchical --- police will not enter the areas at all and even fire fighters are beaten with rocks if they enter to put out a blaze. They are all funded by the dole and they
have somewhere between four and seven children per couple.

They import Wahabbi clerics from North Africa for their children's instruction.

I have yet to hear of even one young European Muslim leaving his religion --- what would they leave it for? European Christianity? It is to laugh. How many converts have they gotten in the last say, 300 years? Materialism and free enterprise? Again, we're talking Europe here.

Sadly, Islam is the only thing left in Europe to believe in. And those idiots won't take it seriously? Even Helen Keller could see this one coming.
17 posted on 04/13/2004 3:53:39 PM PDT by stands2reason ( During the cola wars, France was occupied by Pepsi for six months.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
An interesting post- to add to the debate, I can recommend reading this article;

http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfmcdpei/408410.html

It provides a rather fascinating (and seemingly quite well researched) counterpoint to the whole 'Eurabia' argument- well worth a read IMO
18 posted on 04/14/2004 10:51:13 AM PDT by Ed Thomas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: bcoffey
"So does Pat Buchanan in his book "The Death of the West," which says basically the same thing."

I'm wondering which was first. Not that it matters.

19 posted on 04/14/2004 10:56:56 AM PDT by DannyTN
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: MegaSilver
I believe a majority of the descendants of Islamic immigrants in France have a secular life-style. Comtemporary "decadent" Western culture is powerful in converting religious people of all stripes to secularists. To exaggerate this point a bit, I doubt many people will go back to burqa-clad women and a religious police breaking your beer bottles when give the choice. Even now, the Iranian mullahs are desperately trying the block the "corrupting" influence of Western popular culture pouring in through satellite TV and the Internet. The Islamists will lose the information war in the long run. You can thank MTV for that.
20 posted on 04/15/2004 8:21:40 AM PDT by Truthsayer20
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson