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WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: XM-8 Melts During Tests
StrategyPage.com ^ | April 14, 2004

Posted on 04/15/2004 12:03:29 PM PDT by John Jorsett

The U.S. Army has asked Congress for an extra $26 million to buy 7,000 XM-8 rifles next year. These weapons would be used to equip to infantry brigades and thus give the rifle a wide scale test. The money requested would also pay for the staff needed to monitor the testing. The rifle has already undergone thousands of hours of user testing and there have been some recommendations, all minor. The buttons on the sight are to be rearranged, to make the sight easier to use. There were also complaints about battery life for the sight, and a new battery is being obtained that will boost battery life from 200 to 400 hours. A more serious problem arose when the hand guard began to melt when several hundred rounds were fired in a few minutes. It was expected that the barrel would get very hot in these situations, but the heat resistant hand guard material was thought capable of dealing with that. So now a new hand guard will be needed, with more heat shielding. This will add some weight to the weapon, which is now 6.4 pounds. The designers are trying to get the weight down to 5.7 pounds. The issue of changing the caliber from 5.56mm to 6.8mm is still taking place in the background, with there not even being official recognition that there are 6.8mm version of the XM-8 being tested. There is a bit of competition among combat divisions to be the first to get the rifles for the 2005 test, with many officers lobbying to get one of their divisions brigades selected.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: assaultrifle; bang; banglist; hecklerkoch; hk; m8; miltech; servicerifle; xm8
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1 posted on 04/15/2004 12:03:30 PM PDT by John Jorsett
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To: John Jorsett

2 posted on 04/15/2004 12:11:08 PM PDT by hang 'em (Kerry is a war criminal, a traitor, gigolo and liar. On the other hand, he's tall and has big hair.)
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To: hang 'em
XM8 variants, from top: XM8 with XM320 40mm grenade launcher; XM8 Compact / PDW; XM8 Sharpshooter; XM8 Squad Automatic (drawing from H-K USA booklet)

Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: 838 mm in basic configuration, butt extended
Barrel length: 318 mm in basic configuration; also 229 mm in Compact and 508 mm in Sharpshooter and SAW versions
Weight: 2.659 kg empty in basic configuration
Rate of fire: ~ 750 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG) or 100-rounds double drum in Automatic Rifle/SAW role

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. XM8 is being developed by the Heckler-Koch USA, a subsidiary of famous German Heckler-Koch company. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

The XM8 will be almost similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the sight rail.

As of November, 2003, first 30 prototypes of XM8 were delivered to US Army for initial testing, with further 100+ prototypes scheduled to enter tests early in 2004.

Technical description.
The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. XM8 features a short piston stroke, gas operated action, with rotating bolt locking. Barrels are quick detachable, and planned to be available in several sizes, ranging from 229 mm (9.5 inch) for Compact/PDW version, 318mm (12.5 inch) in Basic version, and two 508mm (20in) barrels, one for Sharpshooter/Sniper version, and heavier one (along with bipod) for Squad Automatic Rifle role. The entire construction is modular and built around the polymer receiver with bolt group; Magazine housings could be easily swapped for compatibility with various types of magazines; various buttstocks could be installed in a second for various roles (standard buttstock is a telescoped 5 position adjustable one). Top of the receiver is fitted with proprietary sight rail, which can accept illuminated red-dot (collimator) sight, or any other type of sighting equipment. Detachable forend will be available in various sizes, and could be replaced with XM320 40mm grenade launcher (the improved HK AG36).

Ambidextrous fire controls are mounted on the trigger unit, integral with pistol grip and triggerguard, and in basic configuration are planned to deliver single shots and full auto fire. The G36-type ambidextrous charging handle is located at the top of the receiver, below the removable carrying handle.

--
3 posted on 04/15/2004 12:14:07 PM PDT by knarf (A place where anyone can learn anything ... especially that which promotes clear thinking.)
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To: John Jorsett
Forget the minor revisions. My only question is will it improve a grunt's chance of icing a rughead?

Reach out and touch someone!
4 posted on 04/15/2004 12:15:59 PM PDT by Dr. Faust
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To: hang 'em
Too bad its the Germans making this rifle, why couldnt a American company make it
5 posted on 04/15/2004 12:16:49 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually Voted for John Kerry before I voted against Him)
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To: John Jorsett
You would think that this particular problem would have been discovered in the early stages of testing. However, switching from 6.8 mm to 5.56mm to save a few ouncues is a big mistake.
6 posted on 04/15/2004 12:17:43 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn't be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Dr. Faust
Article on the 6.8 mm SPC

6.8 Remington SPC

7 posted on 04/15/2004 12:19:28 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: John Jorsett
Barrel length: 318 mm in basic configuration;

12.5" for a 223.....what a joke...

8 posted on 04/15/2004 12:21:56 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: Blood of Tyrants
You would think that this particular problem would have been discovered in the early stages of testing.

HECK YES!

Even firing my AK variant in rapid single-shots the darn thing heats up enough to burn the skin off you. The Palmetto bugs don't like their end of it either.

Seriously, if they've even run it through basic trials something like this should have come up already. I'm beginning to fear for the safety of our soldiers already. Last thing they need in a life or death combat situation is a gun that surrenders like a Frenchman while they're still fighting.

9 posted on 04/15/2004 12:23:02 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: knarf
Barrett M468 chambered in 6.8 Remington SPC


10 posted on 04/15/2004 12:27:16 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: aft_lizard
its the Germans making this rifle, why couldnt a American company make it?

'Cuz the Krauts live for stuff like this.

11 posted on 04/15/2004 12:30:18 PM PDT by muleskinner
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To: muleskinner
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/xm8_rightmed.jpg
12 posted on 04/15/2004 12:32:47 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually Voted for John Kerry before I voted against Him)
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To: muleskinner
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/xm8_rightmed.jpg
13 posted on 04/15/2004 12:33:56 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually Voted for John Kerry before I voted against Him)
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To: muleskinner
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/mil-leimages/xm8apgsold1popup.jpg
14 posted on 04/15/2004 12:34:36 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually Voted for John Kerry before I voted against Him)
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To: aft_lizard
sorry for the double post earlier
Here is a link to the XM-8 companion the XM-320 grenade launcher
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?s=1-292925-xm8_grenade.php
15 posted on 04/15/2004 12:37:05 PM PDT by aft_lizard (I actually Voted for John Kerry before I voted against Him)
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To: John Jorsett
Misleadig title. Only the hand guard melts, and they already have a design solution underway.
16 posted on 04/15/2004 12:38:20 PM PDT by shadowman99
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To: shadowman99
Yeah, that title was just a tad sensationalist.
17 posted on 04/15/2004 12:43:08 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater ("Oh boy, I can't wait to eat that monkey!"--Abe Simpson)
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To: AdamSelene235; EODGUY
90-95% of all shooting, in all wars since the mid-1800's, has been a t very, very close-range.

The "myth" of a sharpshooter aiming and firing at individual targets that he can specifically see and aim at (except, of course, specialized sharpshooters and snipers!) just doesn't happen in real combat.

A short barrel and a small caliber bullet is adequate, just as Stoner originally designed in the AR-15 before the Army firearms officials screwed it by re-designing it as the first versions of the M-16.
18 posted on 04/15/2004 12:49:05 PM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Eaker; TexasCowboy; humblegunner; TheMom
Hey, isn't that what happened to Eaker's gun or something?
19 posted on 04/15/2004 12:50:38 PM PDT by Xenalyte (I may not agree with your bumper sticker, but I'll defend to the death your right to stick it)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
The barrel on this thing is too short to launch the .223 even at a 3000fps muzzle speed. In short, it's just a fast .22 long rifle at this speed.

You really need 3000 fps to produce hydrostatic shock on impact, which makes it an effective round.
20 posted on 04/15/2004 12:54:20 PM PDT by Monty22
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
There have seen several articles here on FR where infantry commanders in Iraq have mentioned the US soldiers ability to down an enemy with one well-aimed shot destroys the morale of the opposition fighters who are used to spraying hundreds of AK rounds at each other from the hip to no effect.
21 posted on 04/15/2004 1:02:24 PM PDT by gura
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To: John Jorsett
...so is there going to be an XM-8 semiauto for sale after the AW ban expires?
22 posted on 04/15/2004 1:02:55 PM PDT by Sender (Support Free Republic...become a monthly donor!)
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To: 45Auto
Bump for later read
23 posted on 04/15/2004 1:05:14 PM PDT by Renfield
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To: aft_lizard
US companies can license the design, there are a few US companies that do now..
24 posted on 04/15/2004 1:06:09 PM PDT by MD_Willington_1976
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To: *bang_list
Bang
25 posted on 04/15/2004 1:06:15 PM PDT by thackney (Life is Fragile, Handle with Prayer)
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To: Monty22
The barrel on this thing is too short to launch the .223 even at a 3000fps muzzle speed. In short, it's just a fast .22 long rifle at this speed.

You really need 3000 fps to produce hydrostatic shock on impact, which makes it an effective round.

That's why there are longer 20-inch barrelled versions. If the extra weight and utility of the grenade launcher isn't needed, the longer and heavier barrel can be fitted, with or without the 100-round double-drum magazine. And barrels can be changed out by a unit armorer or trained squad leader.

But even with the short barrel, it's no worse than a M4 carbine or the Vietnam era 10-inch barrelled XM177s.

I'm impressed with the thing aftrer the 90 rounds I put through one, and oh yeah, it'll have some teething difficulties that'll have to be adderessed. That optical sight ought to have a built-in spare battery, too.

But reworking the handguards should be no problem for a modular weapon design. And hopefully they can be made lighter, too, as long as they're being improved.


26 posted on 04/15/2004 1:07:34 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Behold The Future !!!

Infantry rifle and sidearm both chambered in .17 HMR for 2010

27 posted on 04/15/2004 1:09:39 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
The "myth" of a sharpshooter aiming and firing at individual targets that he can specifically see and aim at (except, of course, specialized sharpshooters and snipers!) just doesn't happen in real combat.

Tell that to the Marines.

28 posted on 04/15/2004 1:10:37 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you must; perform without fail that what you resolve.)
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To: archy
Hey! You got to shoot one? C'mon...let's have a review!

I understand also that the Army has asked for standby iron sights for the rifle, among other improvements.

The handguard heat may be an issue, but I know of no one, save maniac Muzzies, who fire 2-300 rounds nonstop on full auto.

So, how's it handle? Is it accurate? Most importantly, does it FEEL like a weapon, or a toy? by that I mean, would an average Soldier have the confidence in his weapon that a good, robust design provides? Tellmetellmetellme!

29 posted on 04/15/2004 1:15:19 PM PDT by Long Cut
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To: Sender
HK recently announced that they have "no plans at this time" to produce a civilian semiauto-only version of the XM-8. That probably means that they WILL, if and when it is adopted by the military thus ensuring mass production. Politically speaking, they don't want to say "look at the cool gun we'll make if the AWB goes away!". Fienswine and Scummer would be making speeches in front of a poster of it in minutes.

They're being smart not to poison the well.

30 posted on 04/15/2004 1:22:56 PM PDT by Long Cut
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To: Blood of Tyrants
"You would think that this particular problem would have been discovered in the early stages of testing. However, switching from 6.8 mm to 5.56mm to save a few ouncues is a big mistake."

True it only saves a few ounces on the weapon itself. But a soldier also has to carry a load of ammunition. It's the difference between carrying 200 rnds of 6.8 compared to maybe 300 rnds of 5.56 of the same weight. That's where the advantage lies in going to a smaller caliber.
31 posted on 04/15/2004 1:35:14 PM PDT by Oblongata
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To: muleskinner
Yeah, it's a safe bet every single one of these will be made in plants situated in the US when it goes into actual service.

I don't have a problem with foreign designs. As long as it's the best one.

Our tanks all have German Rheinmetall guns. The Germans are just good at guns. (And optics, too, of course, and precision scientific testing equipment, as one of the spectrometers on the Mars Rovers is made in Germany.)

Most infantry weapons and machine guns around today are basically copies (some EXTREMELY close copies) of German WWII weapons. The AK-47, for one, and also I believe
32 posted on 04/15/2004 1:39:44 PM PDT by John H K
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To: Centurion2000
I know the Marines qualify everybody marksman (or higher!) .... But I'm repeating what field reports confirm. Long range shooting at explicit targets rarely occurs.

Actual in combat firing is rarely "marksman-quality" nor allows marksman-timed rates of fire....

See the excellent, though now out-of-print history of how the Army totally screwed up the M16 development out of a sense of "not-invented here" - with almost deliberately bad testing and maintenance and design failures!

In fact, few, if ANY actual "army-designed" weapons were effective in combat.

Every weapon actually used in large numbers in combat was from INDIVIDUAL design and machining changes done (sometimes by Army designers!) on their own initiative. The Army only was dragged kicking and screaming to each change after its "official" designs and "official policies" failed - killing soldiers in the field.

Civil War, War of 1812, Spanish_American War, WWI ... Vietnam ... And now this design?

Doesn't have a good history behind it, but it "might" succeed because of the German machining: as with the 1903A3 copying the Mauser.
Granted the exceptions mentioned above as well.
33 posted on 04/15/2004 1:56:41 PM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: AdamSelene235
Fill it with DMSO and some quick-acting poison...
34 posted on 04/15/2004 2:03:47 PM PDT by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a Leftist with a word processor)
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To: Sender
The AW import ban of 89 does not sunset. Just the domestic manufacture addition of 94.
35 posted on 04/15/2004 2:18:57 PM PDT by Cobra Scott
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To: archy
And barrels can be changed out by a unit armorer or trained squad leader.

I would certainly hope so. Please don't tell me that uppers and other components can't be swapped in the field by the average front line grunt!?!?! A few choice words always optional, of course, LOL!

Is the GL functional on its own? If so (and even if not) I expect to see it in future movies loaded with flechettes. Hidden under an overcoat, I'm sure.

36 posted on 04/15/2004 2:31:29 PM PDT by Cobra Scott
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To: Caipirabob
Ah, hunting Palmetto bugs with an AK 47. I just KNEW you were a Florida guy!

Great homepage, by the way.
37 posted on 04/15/2004 2:37:10 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend.Jack Handy)
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To: Long Cut
Hey! You got to shoot one? C'mon...let's have a review! I understand also that the Army has asked for standby iron sights for the rifle, among other improvements.

Three magazines worth, a wek before my birthday, at which I also got to try two 6,8mm prototypes. The XM-8 was a 5,56mm version, but the changeover takes maybe 20 minutes. Most of the serious military types I know want to see it first replace every M203 Grenade launcher in service. I pretty well concur.

The rifle I shot burned through two .50 ammo cans worth of 5,56mm the day I and others gave it a go, 1680 rounds worth without cleaning, and no stoppages- zero. That's promising.

The handguard heat may be an issue, but I know of no one, save maniac Muzzies, who fire 2-300 rounds nonstop on full auto.

I'd dearly love to have heard the story about how the unit Jessica Lynch was with had just been reequipped with their new M8 carbines, and a few of their NCOs and other personnel with other variants in the family, and promiscously ran through their issue 7 magazines of 210 rounds total each upon being attacked, plus a couple of the 100-round versions, burning out barrels in their new weapons [which will take about ten minutes each to fix] and melting the handguards and otherwise abusing their fine new weapons. And I'd make fun of the sloppy work of the REMFs too, but I'd buy their NCOs a drink afterward to hear the story and to celebrate the good fortune of every one of them coming out of it alive. Every one. And not a one of those poorly-maintained carbines jammed; pretty good deal....

Maybe we'll someday hear a story like that about that, from a place with a name that'll become as common as Rourke's Drift, or Killer Hill, Camerone or The Alamo, but forever associated with a group of outnumbered Americans who held out against insane odds, and made it. One of my reccomendations regarding the XM-8 was that somebody track down Jessica Lynch and her soldier husband and see what they think of it. I like to think it might have made a difference for them.

So, how's it handle? Is it accurate? Most importantly, does it FEEL like a weapon, or a toy? by that I mean, would an average Soldier have the confidence in his weapon that a good, robust design provides? Tellmetellmetellme

Pretty good. It's muzzle heavy, not necessarily a bad thing, in that the result is very controllable on full-auto, and that helps counteract the tendency of rookies to point high at night. The carbine version I fired was at least as accurate [200 meter range] as an M4, and the optical sight is fast and precise; I like it as well as a British SUIT/Trilux or Russian 1P29, which is saying quite a lot. I'm reasonably fond of the British SA80/L85A1, despite the horror stories about it, and I really like the French FAMAS G2 Clarion. The M8 is at least their equal, but I could think of some improvements, and I did, and submitted them in writing, the reason I got to play with one. Most of all, I'd like to see downward ejection, equally convenient for the lefthanded and righties.

The plastic magazines seem to be an improvement over the M16 aluminum magazines, and that may be the feature that makes or breaks the new rifle. But I'd bet that if we don't go for it, someone else will; I got a hint that at least one other nation is interested enough to cancel a reported reequipping of their armed forces with M16A2s. We shall see.

One neat thing: it's modular. If you really wanted to, you could fit a wooden butt and foreend on it. I'm just perverse enough to do so if one comes my way more-or-less permanently, but I'll hang onto the components to switch it back into GI configuration, too.

I forsee white plastic versions with chrome-plated barrels for honor guards, blue ones for the Air Force, and so forth. But that's not really a fault of the weapon. And such bling-bling can be swapped back out to GI again, thank God.

They'll need a good name for it. Springfield and Garand are already taken.

38 posted on 04/15/2004 2:41:02 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: AdamSelene235
Behold the future?


39 posted on 04/15/2004 2:41:22 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend.Jack Handy)
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To: Cobra Scott
Is the GL functional on its own? If so (and even if not) I expect to see it in future movies loaded with flechettes. Hidden under an overcoat, I'm sure.

I didn't get to fire the XM320 grenade launcher, but I've handled it and read the draft -12 operators manual. It's got two things going for it: it opens to the left side to load instead of pumpung forward like an XM148 or M203. accordingly, 40mm rounds of any length can be used in it, including white phosphorous rounds, parachute flares, specialized antitank rounds and other goodies too long to fit in the relatively short space available when the M203 barrel is popped forward. It may be a little slower than an M203 [two guys with an M203 and a sling can get at least 16 rounds in the air before the first one hits; not a bad imitation of a baby mortar. But I bet more grenade launchers fet fielded with the M8, maybe one for everyone. Now THAT could change the way an infantryman does business, at least until the 20mm/25mm fuzing problems get worked out. And when a new GL caliber comes along, it just gets modularly mounted just like the XM320. Neat. And yes, it'll function as a stand alone double-action single-shot bigbore pistol that could be holstered. But since it replaces those melt-too-easy handguards, one immediate answer to the handguard problem is just to issue a GL as a foreend instead.

And the sights on the grenade launcher stay on the launcher instead of being mounted on the rifle. Switch it from one user's gun to another, and it remains sighted in.

Now watch this.


40 posted on 04/15/2004 3:11:57 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: aft_lizard
Too bad its the Germans making this rifle, why couldnt a American company make it.

In October, H&K broke ground for their new production facility outside Columbus, Georgia, comfy-close and convenient to the Ft Benning home of the US INfantry School and Headquarters. It's still a German design, but they're an American company now, in part, at least.

41 posted on 04/15/2004 3:13:55 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: Cobra Scott
The XM-8 is domestic. Made rat'cheer in Geow'gia.
42 posted on 04/15/2004 3:59:08 PM PDT by Sender (Support Free Republic...become a monthly donor!)
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To: archy; Travis McGee; Woahhs; Shooter 2.5; Squantos; All
Thanks for that excellent summary. However, I still reserve the right to turn as green as a gator's ass in envy.

"I forsee white plastic versions with chrome-plated barrels for honor guards, blue ones for the Air Force, and so forth. But that's not really a fault of the weapon. And such bling-bling can be swapped back out to GI again, thank God."

I have no doubt in my mind that, informed of the capability, the Air Force would grab a blue rifle with both hands. They'd go for the chrome barrel, too. Oh, yeah, and a white sling.

The Navy would probably order them "haze grey, for under way", as I hear our working uniforms might soon be. (another story which I hope to post when the order comes down, stay tuned).

The Marines could get two colors...one in camo, for work, and one in a red-and-yellow Devil Dog pattern.

The Army will stick with the sandy color, alternated with OD or black.

"They'll need a good name for it. Springfield and Garand are already taken."

When/if it is adopted (what the hell, whenever we feel like it), let's start a thread..."Name America's newest Service Rifle". We can forward it to the Ordinance Board.

43 posted on 04/15/2004 4:50:59 PM PDT by Long Cut
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To: archy
BTW, I'm assuming there were HK reps about when you got your little play-time. Any of them say anything about a civvie model, or were they mum about it?
44 posted on 04/15/2004 4:58:21 PM PDT by Long Cut
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
2 words....Sergeant York
45 posted on 04/15/2004 5:27:50 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: ovrtaxt
Ah, hunting Palmetto bugs with an AK 47. I just KNEW you were a Florida guy!

Tain't nothin more dangerous than an wounded palmetto!

46 posted on 04/15/2004 5:57:21 PM PDT by Woahhs
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To: RealPiedPiper
The extra ammo argument worked in the jungle, with long foot patrols and spotty resupply. But in mounted and dismounted desert/urban warfare, carrying a multi day load of ammo isn't the deciding factor: stopping power and obstacle penetration are paramount.
47 posted on 04/15/2004 6:03:07 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: RealPiedPiper
True it only saves a few ounces on the weapon itself. But a soldier also has to carry a load of ammunition. It's the difference between carrying 200 rnds of 6.8 compared to maybe 300 rnds of 5.56 of the same weight. That's where the advantage lies in going to a smaller caliber.


The enemy is 500 yards away, armed with AK-47s. Would you rather 300 rounds of 223, or 200 of 6.8?
48 posted on 04/15/2004 7:17:52 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: AdamSelene235
You're killin' me lolol
49 posted on 04/15/2004 7:21:18 PM PDT by Vision (Always Faithful)
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To: archy
Hey archy, just for giggles do you have a picture of the 7.92Kurz of the Mp44 in the same scale as 6.8 SPC? Also, can you put one of the air force blue stocks with the chromed metal on lawaway for me? I would be just the thing to shoot at the Wilson match in 2010. LOL!
50 posted on 04/15/2004 8:14:11 PM PDT by Tailback
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