WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: XM-8 Melts During Tests

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 14, 2004

[John Jorsett]

The U.S. Army has asked Congress for an extra $26 million to buy 7,000 XM-8 rifles next year. These weapons would be used to equip to infantry brigades and thus give the rifle a wide scale test. The money requested would also pay for the staff needed to monitor the testing. The rifle has already undergone thousands of hours of user testing and there have been some recommendations, all minor. The buttons on the sight are to be rearranged, to make the sight easier to use. There were also complaints about battery life for the sight, and a new battery is being obtained that will boost battery life from 200 to 400 hours. A more serious problem arose when the hand guard began to melt when several hundred rounds were fired in a few minutes. It was expected that the barrel would get very hot in these situations, but the heat resistant hand guard material was thought capable of dealing with that. So now a new hand guard will be needed, with more heat shielding. This will add some weight to the weapon, which is now 6.4 pounds. The designers are trying to get the weight down to 5.7 pounds. The issue of changing the caliber from 5.56mm to 6.8mm is still taking place in the background, with there not even being official recognition that there are 6.8mm version of the XM-8 being tested. There is a bit of competition among combat divisions to be the first to get the rifles for the 2005 test, with many officers lobbying to get one of their divisions brigades selected.

[gura]

There have seen several articles here on FR where infantry commanders in Iraq have mentioned the US soldiers ability to down an enemy with one well-aimed shot destroys the morale of the opposition fighters who are used to spraying hundreds of AK rounds at each other from the hip to no effect.

[Sender]

...so is there going to be an XM-8 semiauto for sale after the AW ban expires?

[Renfield]

Bump for later read

[MD_Willington_1976]

US companies can license the design, there are a few US companies that do now..

[thackney]

Bang

[archy]

The barrel on this thing is too short to launch the .223 even at a 3000fps muzzle speed. In short, it's just a fast .22 long rifle at this speed.

You really need 3000 fps to produce hydrostatic shock on impact, which makes it an effective round.

That's why there are longer 20-inch barrelled versions. If the extra weight and utility of the grenade launcher isn't needed, the longer and heavier barrel can be fitted, with or without the 100-round double-drum magazine. And barrels can be changed out by a unit armorer or trained squad leader.

But even with the short barrel, it's no worse than a M4 carbine or the Vietnam era 10-inch barrelled XM177s.

I'm impressed with the thing aftrer the 90 rounds I put through one, and oh yeah, it'll have some teething difficulties that'll have to be adderessed. That optical sight ought to have a built-in spare battery, too.

But reworking the handguards should be no problem for a modular weapon design. And hopefully they can be made lighter, too, as long as they're being improved.

[AdamSelene235]

Behold The Future !!!

Infantry rifle and sidearm both chambered in .17 HMR for 2010

[Centurion2000]

The "myth" of a sharpshooter aiming and firing at individual targets that he can specifically see and aim at (except, of course, specialized sharpshooters and snipers!) just doesn't happen in real combat.

Tell that to the Marines.

[Long Cut]

Hey! You got to shoot one? C'mon...let's have a review!

I understand also that the Army has asked for standby iron sights for the rifle, among other improvements.

The handguard heat may be an issue, but I know of no one, save maniac Muzzies, who fire 2-300 rounds nonstop on full auto.

So, how's it handle? Is it accurate? Most importantly, does it FEEL like a weapon, or a toy? by that I mean, would an average Soldier have the confidence in his weapon that a good, robust design provides? Tellmetellmetellme!

[Long Cut]

HK recently announced that they have "no plans at this time" to produce a civilian semiauto-only version of the XM-8. That probably means that they WILL, if and when it is adopted by the military thus ensuring mass production. Politically speaking, they don't want to say "look at the cool gun we'll make if the AWB goes away!". Fienswine and Scummer would be making speeches in front of a poster of it in minutes.

They're being smart not to poison the well.

[Oblongata]

"You would think that this particular problem would have been discovered in the early stages of testing. However, switching from 6.8 mm to 5.56mm to save a few ouncues is a big mistake."

True it only saves a few ounces on the weapon itself. But a soldier also has to carry a load of ammunition. It's the difference between carrying 200 rnds of 6.8 compared to maybe 300 rnds of 5.56 of the same weight. That's where the advantage lies in going to a smaller caliber.

[John H K]

Yeah, it's a safe bet every single one of these will be made in plants situated in the US when it goes into actual service.

I don't have a problem with foreign designs. As long as it's the best one.

Our tanks all have German Rheinmetall guns. The Germans are just good at guns. (And optics, too, of course, and precision scientific testing equipment, as one of the spectrometers on the Mars Rovers is made in Germany.)

Most infantry weapons and machine guns around today are basically copies (some EXTREMELY close copies) of German WWII weapons. The AK-47, for one, and also I believe

[Robert A Cook PE]

I know the Marines qualify everybody marksman (or higher!) .... But I'm repeating what field reports confirm. Long range shooting at explicit targets rarely occurs.

Actual in combat firing is rarely "marksman-quality" nor allows marksman-timed rates of fire....

See the excellent, though now out-of-print history of how the Army totally screwed up the M16 development out of a sense of "not-invented here" - with almost deliberately bad testing and maintenance and design failures!

In fact, few, if ANY actual "army-designed" weapons were effective in combat.

Every weapon actually used in large numbers in combat was from INDIVIDUAL design and machining changes done (sometimes by Army designers!) on their own initiative. The Army only was dragged kicking and screaming to each change after its "official" designs and "official policies" failed - killing soldiers in the field.

Civil War, War of 1812, Spanish_American War, WWI ... Vietnam ... And now this design?

Doesn't have a good history behind it, but it "might" succeed because of the German machining: as with the 1903A3 copying the Mauser.
Granted the exceptions mentioned above as well.

[boris]

Fill it with DMSO and some quick-acting poison...

[Cobra Scott]

The AW import ban of 89 does not sunset. Just the domestic manufacture addition of 94.

[Cobra Scott]

And barrels can be changed out by a unit armorer or trained squad leader.

I would certainly hope so. Please don't tell me that uppers and other components can't be swapped in the field by the average front line grunt!?!?! A few choice words always optional, of course, LOL!

Is the GL functional on its own? If so (and even if not) I expect to see it in future movies loaded with flechettes. Hidden under an overcoat, I'm sure.

[ovrtaxt]

Ah, hunting Palmetto bugs with an AK 47. I just KNEW you were a Florida guy!

Great homepage, by the way.

[archy]

Hey! You got to shoot one? C'mon...let's have a review! I understand also that the Army has asked for standby iron sights for the rifle, among other improvements.

Three magazines worth, a wek before my birthday, at which I also got to try two 6,8mm prototypes. The XM-8 was a 5,56mm version, but the changeover takes maybe 20 minutes. Most of the serious military types I know want to see it first replace every M203 Grenade launcher in service. I pretty well concur.

The rifle I shot burned through two .50 ammo cans worth of 5,56mm the day I and others gave it a go, 1680 rounds worth without cleaning, and no stoppages- zero. That's promising.

The handguard heat may be an issue, but I know of no one, save maniac Muzzies, who fire 2-300 rounds nonstop on full auto.

I'd dearly love to have heard the story about how the unit Jessica Lynch was with had just been reequipped with their new M8 carbines, and a few of their NCOs and other personnel with other variants in the family, and promiscously ran through their issue 7 magazines of 210 rounds total each upon being attacked, plus a couple of the 100-round versions, burning out barrels in their new weapons [which will take about ten minutes each to fix] and melting the handguards and otherwise abusing their fine new weapons. And I'd make fun of the sloppy work of the REMFs too, but I'd buy their NCOs a drink afterward to hear the story and to celebrate the good fortune of every one of them coming out of it alive. Every one. And not a one of those poorly-maintained carbines jammed; pretty good deal....

Maybe we'll someday hear a story like that about that, from a place with a name that'll become as common as Rourke's Drift, or Killer Hill, Camerone or The Alamo, but forever associated with a group of outnumbered Americans who held out against insane odds, and made it. One of my reccomendations regarding the XM-8 was that somebody track down Jessica Lynch and her soldier husband and see what they think of it. I like to think it might have made a difference for them.

So, how's it handle? Is it accurate? Most importantly, does it FEEL like a weapon, or a toy? by that I mean, would an average Soldier have the confidence in his weapon that a good, robust design provides? Tellmetellmetellme

Pretty good. It's muzzle heavy, not necessarily a bad thing, in that the result is very controllable on full-auto, and that helps counteract the tendency of rookies to point high at night. The carbine version I fired was at least as accurate [200 meter range] as an M4, and the optical sight is fast and precise; I like it as well as a British SUIT/Trilux or Russian 1P29, which is saying quite a lot. I'm reasonably fond of the British SA80/L85A1, despite the horror stories about it, and I really like the French FAMAS G2 Clarion. The M8 is at least their equal, but I could think of some improvements, and I did, and submitted them in writing, the reason I got to play with one. Most of all, I'd like to see downward ejection, equally convenient for the lefthanded and righties.

The plastic magazines seem to be an improvement over the M16 aluminum magazines, and that may be the feature that makes or breaks the new rifle. But I'd bet that if we don't go for it, someone else will; I got a hint that at least one other nation is interested enough to cancel a reported reequipping of their armed forces with M16A2s. We shall see.

One neat thing: it's modular. If you really wanted to, you could fit a wooden butt and foreend on it. I'm just perverse enough to do so if one comes my way more-or-less permanently, but I'll hang onto the components to switch it back into GI configuration, too.

I forsee white plastic versions with chrome-plated barrels for honor guards, blue ones for the Air Force, and so forth. But that's not really a fault of the weapon. And such bling-bling can be swapped back out to GI again, thank God.

They'll need a good name for it. Springfield and Garand are already taken.

[ovrtaxt]

Behold the future?

[archy]

Is the GL functional on its own? If so (and even if not) I expect to see it in future movies loaded with flechettes. Hidden under an overcoat, I'm sure.

I didn't get to fire the XM320 grenade launcher, but I've handled it and read the draft -12 operators manual. It's got two things going for it: it opens to the left side to load instead of pumpung forward like an XM148 or M203. accordingly, 40mm rounds of any length can be used in it, including white phosphorous rounds, parachute flares, specialized antitank rounds and other goodies too long to fit in the relatively short space available when the M203 barrel is popped forward. It may be a little slower than an M203 [two guys with an M203 and a sling can get at least 16 rounds in the air before the first one hits; not a bad imitation of a baby mortar. But I bet more grenade launchers fet fielded with the M8, maybe one for everyone. Now THAT could change the way an infantryman does business, at least until the 20mm/25mm fuzing problems get worked out. And when a new GL caliber comes along, it just gets modularly mounted just like the XM320. Neat. And yes, it'll function as a stand alone double-action single-shot bigbore pistol that could be holstered. But since it replaces those melt-too-easy handguards, one immediate answer to the handguard problem is just to issue a GL as a foreend instead.

And the sights on the grenade launcher stay on the launcher instead of being mounted on the rifle. Switch it from one user's gun to another, and it remains sighted in.

Now watch this.