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Russia: TV archive unlocks myth of revolution
Scotsman.com ^ | 15 Apr 2004 | TIM CORNWELL

Posted on 04/18/2004 4:56:03 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

IN OCTOBER 1917, when the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia, sailors in the port of Kronstadt formed the vanguard of the revolution. They overran the cruiser Aurora, bombarded the Winter Palace, stormed the building and handed it over to the Bolsheviks.

Four years later, 900 of those same sailors were executed by firing squad after they rose up against the Communists and the Red Army. Thousands of others were dispatched to the Gulag prison camps.

Now their story is to be used by the TV company WarkClements as the narrative spine of a two-part documentary promising to "unpack" the myths of the Russian revolution and the lethal battle for power that followed.

Storm in the East will argue that Russia should never have had a Socialist revolution in 1917, that the Bolsheviks were a fringe party, and that "the revolution was an exercise in capturing and maintaining power at all costs".

Alan Clements, the managing director of the company, described yesterday how it took two years to secure financing for a project he has wanted to do for 21 years, ever since he studied the subject at the University of Glasgow.

"It has been a long-haul putting together the funding, a labour of love," he said. "The thesis will be quite controversial, but at least thought- provoking.

"People tend to believe that Lenin was this cuddly guy and Stalin made it all bad. Historically there are a lot of people on the Scottish left with that view, certainly when I was still at university, and that can't be justified."

Lenin, who died in early 1924, founded the feared secret police, the Cheka, and authorised them to take the first brutal measures against Russian peasants in a foretaste of Stalinist horrors.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.scotsman.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: bolsheviks; communism; communists; oct17; october17; russia; russianrevolution; worldhistory

1 posted on 04/18/2004 4:56:09 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe; Cincinatus' Wife; Dr. Marten; tallhappy
bump
2 posted on 04/18/2004 4:57:57 PM PDT by risk
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Maybe Ken Burns will produce it.

Not.
3 posted on 04/18/2004 4:59:28 PM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: js1138
Maybe Ken Burns will produce it.

Maybe he'll post the whole article.

Not.

FMCDH

4 posted on 04/18/2004 5:11:02 PM PDT by nothingnew (The pendulum is swinging and the Rats are in the pit!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Lenin was every bit as blood thirsty as Stalin,
but perhaps not quite as ruthless and cunning, much to his
regret. His wife saw where Stalin was going but by then
Lenin was in no condition to do much about it.
As I remember he tried but on his death Stalin took all
his papers and that was the last of that.

Do they have a Ft. Marcy park in Moscow?
5 posted on 04/18/2004 5:23:13 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
ping for later
6 posted on 04/18/2004 5:23:59 PM PDT by scan59
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To: Tailgunner Joe
People tend to believe that Lenin was this cuddly guy and Stalin made it all bad.

Anyone who has read Solzhenitsyn knows better.

7 posted on 04/18/2004 5:28:02 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building! Able to leap tall bullets in a single bound!)
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To: tet68
Yes. Lenin apparently left a will that Stalin suppressed. One or more Robert Conquest books [The Great Terror, Harvest of Sorrow] mention this.
8 posted on 04/18/2004 5:30:42 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building! Able to leap tall bullets in a single bound!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I grew up listening to my grandfather's stories of the Russian revolution. They came in took everything the poor had while cheering "It's for the people." (As opposed to todays Marxist cheer "It's for the children".)Anyone who voiced any objection to having all his food and livestock taken was slaughtered on the spot.

I'm left wondering if the makers of this documentary are believers in Marx' doctine and just feel that the Russians just didn't implement it correctly.
9 posted on 04/18/2004 5:40:52 PM PDT by lizma
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10 posted on 04/18/2004 6:02:24 PM PDT by risk
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To: Tailgunner Joe
BUMP
11 posted on 04/18/2004 6:02:41 PM PDT by eleni121 (Preempt and Prevent---then Destroy)
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To: lizma; Cincinatus' Wife
ping to my #10 - still from Nikita Mikhalkov's award-winning Burnt by the Sun (Utomlyonnye solntsem) film, a very disturbing film about the cost of bad ideology taken to its logical ends.
12 posted on 04/18/2004 6:05:50 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
That's a good film. I bought it and have watched it a couple of times. It's hard to take at the end. Never had anyone to discuss it with, and am not sure I understood all of it.
13 posted on 04/18/2004 6:16:32 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska
I see it is available on e-bay. I may bid on a copy. I will contact you after I view it, if I am successful.
14 posted on 04/18/2004 6:28:27 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie
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To: The_Media_never_lie
amazon.com has 20 new and used vhs from $8. That's a good price. Some slightly more up to quite a lot. buy.com has it on dvd for $25 something.

Maybe you can just rent it. Will look forward to hearing what you thought about it.

I need to track down Oblomov. I love Russian films. I also have Siberiade.

15 posted on 04/18/2004 6:39:45 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska
The story is finally coming out. Will we see this on PBS?
16 posted on 04/18/2004 6:49:28 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: Ciexyz
I have seen a lot of very damning stuff on Saddam on PBS. So I won't rule this out.
17 posted on 04/18/2004 6:56:46 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic RATmedia agree: Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: Ciexyz
You mean the true background of the Russian Revolution? Or are you talking about Burnt by the Sun?

The revolution was a horror orchestrated by a small minority which, playing on societal discontent, amassed more power as it gathered momentum. It sounds somewhat like America today, the politics of hate and discontent, being played out before our eyes. A similar thing, actually an even worse thing, could happen here if the checks and balances give out. The groundwork has been carefully laid.

I don't know where things are going to be truthful.

18 posted on 04/18/2004 7:02:31 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: tet68
Do they have a Ft. Marcy park in Moscow?

I don't know. But I bet Hillery was there, in a "prior life".

19 posted on 04/18/2004 7:39:42 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (Any day you wake up is a good day.)
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To: js1138; risk
Maybe Ken Burns will produce it.

That mad me laugh.

Thanks for the ping, risk.

20 posted on 04/18/2004 8:05:50 PM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: Aliska
Also it help that Trotsky have American/British business interest to finance of him: Armnhammer, Rothchildes, Ford, etc while Lenin had the little lame Kaiser and his 50 million gold Deutch Mark for spending around cash.
21 posted on 04/18/2004 8:11:50 PM PDT by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: RussianConservative
I haven't read up on that lately, but it sounds plausible. There's no doubt a lot of blood on a lot of hands, and not just on the part of the revolutionaries. Revenge by certain parties could have driven a lot of it.

There are some aspects of the nasty business that are not pc to talk about publicly so I'm not going to talk about it, but everything isn't as neat and tidy as historians would have us believe.

22 posted on 04/18/2004 8:26:28 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Tailgunner Joe; RussianConservative
Now, this gives me food for thought.

Considering what Gibson was able to accomplish with his "Passion", telling the Christian story right out of the Gospels despite being shut out by leftist-controlled Holeywood...

We know that Holeywood will never, never, NEVER document the horror perpetrated upon Russia by the Bolsheviks, by Germany, and by the Jewish Left in Europe (sorry, folks, but that's the truth, and I'm Jewish, so don't bother howling). So, here in America, we will never get the proper exposure of the virulence of Communism that is fundamental to ensuring the destruction of socialism *here*, even while it is in decline elsewhere in the world.

But maybe the Russians can do it for us? Maybe they can document on film what our own film industry is too biased, too cowardly, and too infested with leftists to even contemplate admitting? It would be a wonderful way to reward us for starving Communism out of existence in their country... they could help us finally get rid of it in our own.

23 posted on 04/18/2004 8:30:22 PM PDT by fire_eye (Socialism is the opiate of academia.)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: VadeRetro
Yes, but how many people read Solzhenitsyn?
25 posted on 04/18/2004 10:28:02 PM PDT by mark_interrupted
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To: Tailgunner Joe
"People tend to believe that Lenin was this cuddly guy and Stalin made it all badwas a trustworthy and honorable avuncular figure. Historically there are a lot of people on the Scottish world-wide left with that view"

there, I fixed it for the author.

26 posted on 04/18/2004 10:44:13 PM PDT by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: tet68
Do they have a Ft. Marcy park in Moscow?

Gorky Park perhaps?

27 posted on 04/18/2004 11:26:30 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: fire_eye
At a Bolshevik celebration rally in New York's Carnegie Hall on the night of 23 March 1917, a telegram of support from Jacob Schiff of Kuhn, Loeb & Co. was read out. The telegram was reprinted in the next morning's New York Times. Schiff later tried to deny his involvement, but thirty years later his grandson John admitted in the New York Journal-American (3 February 1949) that the old man had sunk twenty million dollars into the Bolshevik cause.

Another Western bankers who poured funds into Bolshevik Russia was Olaf Ashberg of the Stockholm Nia Banken. He remained the Soviets' paymaster until the late 1940s

The Bolsheviks also received assistance from Armand Hammer Hammer's Occidental Oil Company is at the moment building a 1600 mile chemicals pipeline in southern Russia. He is also on such good terms with the Soviets that he personally arranges for Soviet art galleries to lend paintings to America.

Another American-based businessman to help out the Soviet economy is Michael Fribourg, who owns the massive Continental Grain Company. Together with the Louis Dreyfus Corporation, these speculators were able to buy up vast quantities of cheap American grain in 1972, sell it to the Soviets at a vast profit, and collect an export subsidy from the U.S. taxpayer

28 posted on 04/18/2004 11:45:02 PM PDT by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: mark_interrupted
Yes, but how many people read Solzhenitsyn?

Good point. You don't hear much about him anymore. Most of us who have read him did so in the 60s and 70s, especially the latter decade when his Gulag Archipelago was being published in the West for the first time. That work utterly explodes any benign picture of Lenin.

This review of a different book (one I haven't read) captures the situation well.

29 posted on 04/19/2004 8:02:21 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building! Able to leap tall bullets in a single bound!)
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To: RussianConservative
Yes. Sometimes I spot check what people post with my own research. This is not your usual style, so I assume you copied it from somewhere. Here is what I dug out of the NYT archives:

March 26, 1917, NYT

Root Predicts Fall of Central Rulers

Hollenzollerns and Hapsburgs Will Follow Romonovs, He Declares

MASS MEETING FOR RUSSIA

Cable Message from President Lvoff Cheered by 1,500 Celebrating Success of the Revolution

"Fifteen hundred persons who attended the mass meeting at the Manhattan Opera House last night to celebrate the success of the revolution cheered the prediction in a letter from Elihu Root . . ."

It goes on for quite a bit, and near the end:

"The following message was read from Jacob H. Schiff, who telegraphed from White Sulphur Springs:

"Certainly I shall feel greatly honored to be named a Vice President for tomorrow evening's mass meeting, and I only regret absence prevents me from being present to give personal evidence of my rejoicing and elation over the wonderful deliverance of the Russian people from their long bondage. They deserve all the happiness and prosperity the future doubtless has in store for them under a Democratic government."

I don't know if the Opera House and Carnegie Hall are one and the same, but it is close enough.

I haven't plowed through the entire article and I can't post it because of copyright restrictions and it is not in text format.

In fairness, I wonder if they were aware of the violence and repression that would follow. It appears they supported the violent revolution to install a democracy. I don't know if they foresaw the consequences or not.

30 posted on 04/19/2004 8:26:13 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska; RussianConservative
The Jewish supporters of Lenin - including the wealthy industrialists - had this starry-eyed notion that a Communist state would produce a government free from anti-semitism. You can read Horowitz on this in his book "Bad Faith".

You can say they were deluded, just as the idiots in Hollywood who support Communism were - and are today (albeit for different reasons). But that doesn't exonerate them one bit. It doesn't matter at all to someone who is killed by a totalitarian police state, whether or not those who bankrolled it had good intentions - he or she is still just as dead.

31 posted on 04/19/2004 10:27:17 PM PDT by fire_eye (Socialism is the opiate of academia.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
btt
32 posted on 04/19/2004 11:36:38 PM PDT by Cacique
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To: Aliska
Idiots. Under Tsar was almost total land ownership by peasants, unions, ability to strike, comprehensive education, tuition assisted universities, etc. But West never see that, it see competing giant of Russia growing quickly...time to get rid of all that for "deliverance". Stupidity of West got rid of Tsar, funny thing, Tsar of Holy Russia all that was of way of evil of the rest of 20th centuary. Think, if Tsar stay in power no Soviet massacres of 30 million. No Nazies and 50 million more dead. No China communists and 60 million dead. No Korea, no Vietnam, no Afghanistan, no all crap of Africa, no Cuba, no Elsavador, no Cold War, no Islamic running all over world in ever massing masses.
33 posted on 04/20/2004 12:08:03 AM PDT by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: Aliska
The Manhattan Opera House and Carnegie Hall were two, distinct, separate entities and NOT "close" at all,since the Opera House held many more people and Carnegie Hall has NEVER had an opera performed in it.
34 posted on 04/20/2004 12:17:40 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: Aliska
I also have Siberiade.

I saw Siberiade on Ebay for about $40. It is apparently a 2 dvd set and looks pretty good.

What did you think of it?

35 posted on 04/23/2004 6:47:33 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie
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To: The_Media_never_lie
It's been a couple or 3 years since I sat down and watched it. I thought it was excellent, and I don't like to say it wasn't a quality film because I miss the finer points sometimes, but it didn't flow like some epic American films. Which is another reason I liked it. Also, it was in color so I got to see some of the lush Russian scenery.

I got my copy on vhs at buy.com for about $21, I think.

I need to watch it again. And again.

One of the nice things about some foreign films is that the actors aren't as glamorous as we tend to expect from Hollywood, more your average kind of person which really makes it more true to life.

I guess I was expecting the Russian equivalent of Gone with the Wind, only with snowy, wintery birch tree forests, and it wasn't quite like that.

And there was a strange scene I wasn't sure about where an old man seemed to be trying to "hit" on a little boy in his care . . . I was hoping they didn't do that in Russia :-). The kid rebuffed him successfully, thankfully. I wonder why the director put that in the film. Maybe I interpreted it wrong.

That's enough. I don't remember the story very well, just a couple scenes stuck in my mind. Life was hard, and there wasn't much to do when they weren't fighting.

36 posted on 04/23/2004 7:17:24 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: RussianConservative
Re your #33. I had never thought that expansively about how the revolution spilled over and affected so many countries in the way it did. I vaguely knew how the violence and spread of communism had a ripple effect all over the world, but to lay it out the way you did really makes you realize the magnitude and cause of the horrific loss of life in all those countries and how it may have caused, at least in part, the two world wars.

The one thing you didn't mention was the persecution of Jews in Russia which probably caused many to support the revolutionaries who may not have otherwise. I guess it has bothered me more than a little that Yurovsky?, whom I believe was a Jew, as were others who ascended to power which cannot be denied, was the one who carried out the orders to liquidate the czar and his family. Do you happen to know if the statue commemorating him still stands in or near Ekaterinberg? One would hope it is gone now.

I fear some accounts remain to be settled, but I don't like to speculate on just how that will be.

37 posted on 04/23/2004 7:31:33 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: mark_interrupted; MarMema
#25. I read "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch?" years ago. It was depressing but worth the read. I then tackled "Cancer Ward" (think it was the same author) and couldn't finish it. I preferred Chekhov, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky(sp?). Also I thoroughly enjoyed "Land of the Firebird?". One of my favorites was an obscure little book called "A Walk in Rural Russia". I highly recommend it. There is a low-budget producer of Russian films (clean cultural type stuff), and I suggested to him that he film that book, but I haven't seen anything yet. I read these all on my own long after I got out of school, so I don't know if I got as much out of them as I might have I had been mentored by someone who knows more than I do about such things.

(To MarMema: You might enjoy the rural walk book. They describe in great detail the orthodox churches. Also there is a film about Russian pilgrimages which I haven't seen. You might want to see if you haven't already.

A Journey of Faith

I need to try to get Solzhenitsyn's (I used to know how to spell it but had to copy this time) latest book.

38 posted on 04/23/2004 7:50:31 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska
I don't know of statue status, probably down by now. As for Jews, Jews in Russia safe, except for 1-5% idiot rate of nazies and other such social drop out. In Russia on passport now is only writen citizenship: Russian not ethnicity. And for ethnicity is only asked by bureo of census and then no proof of ethnicity need be shown. Now in Russia colonies of elves and hobbits. :0)

Yes they kill Christian Tsar and unleash unholy hell fire on all of earth, 200 million dead or more was Devil reward for death of Tsar...what difference of one life can make...hugh?

39 posted on 04/23/2004 9:32:04 PM PDT by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: Aliska
I have that movie, Triumph of Faith. It is among my favorites. I have the rural one too.
40 posted on 04/23/2004 9:49:32 PM PDT by MarMema (next year in constantinople!)
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To: Aliska
Ok thanks for your review. I will probably get it and also Burnt by the Sun. Also, Anna Karinenna looked very interesting.

I just love Russian culture; such a shame their politics does not keep pace.

I will post back to you when I have view one of these.

41 posted on 04/24/2004 8:34:42 AM PDT by The_Media_never_lie
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To: Aliska
Ok thanks for your review. I will probably get it and also Burnt by the Sun. Also, Anna Karinenna looked very interesting.

I just love Russian culture; such a shame their politics does not keep pace.

I will post back to you when I have view one of these.

42 posted on 04/24/2004 8:37:36 AM PDT by The_Media_never_lie
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To: The_Media_never_lie
Please do get back to me with your reaction.

I believe there are two different film versions of Anna Karenina which were produced in the west. Both are quite good.

Also I recommend you might try to find an older American film called "Nicholas and Alexandria", if you've never seen it. I saw it for the first time when I was in high school, and I and my friends were horrified at the gruesome murder in Ekaterinberg. I found it again as a video rental somwhere.

Dr. Zhivago was one of my all-time favorite movies and stories.

I love Russian culture, too, from a distance, and I'm trying to pinpoint how I got interested in it. I've tried to imagine if I would feel at home in their culture and think not unless I gradually became accustomed to it. Growing up, we were in terror of them; all I knew was that they were evil communists and might nuke us. I think my perception began to change when I started realizing that some of the people under communism had very redeeming qualities, warmth, openness, etc. I think Dr. Zhivago had much to do with my wanting to learn more about Russia and the Russian people.

43 posted on 04/24/2004 9:12:23 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: RussianConservative
Elves and hobbits :-). Cute.

I was concerned when Russia opened up to the west after the fall of communism that Americans would try to push some undesirable things on them. I'm still concerned about that and wish Americans wouldn't push in there with some of their foolishness and our-way-is-best attitudes.

I want to think about some of the rest.

I forgot to address your comment about Islam. I think they were destined to be a problem regardless of what happened in Russia, but it is more over oil and the politics that accompany keeping the oil flowing imo.

Both parties are not doing justice to American voters. Like it or not, we need the oil. Without it, our economy and way of life would come to a screeching halt, with consequences that could be as bad or worse than what happened in Russia.

I think we would have gotten along better with Islam if oil politics and Israel hadn't entered the picture. In any case, oil or no, they are in expansionist mode and there would have been inevitable clashes.

Last night while I was waiting in the drive through at McD's for my fish sandwiches, I watched in my rear-view mirror some Islamic kids playing in the yard at the local mosque. They were dressed just like western kids, were playing just like western kids, and I started wondering, wondering if it were a good thing they were here . . . just a random thought. It is bothering me, because if it weren't for things playing out on the world stage, I would have otherwise felt more welcoming to have them in our community.

Who got all the Russian wealth? Western bankers?

44 posted on 04/24/2004 9:28:34 AM PDT by Aliska
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To: Matthew James; Squantos; river rat; maica; Tailgunner Joe
About damn time to finally drive the stake of truth through Lenin's black heart.
45 posted on 04/24/2004 9:31:39 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

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