[WICHITA, Kan] Subpeona:For Information On 6 People Who Posted Messages (my title)

thekansascitychannel.com ^ | April 22, 2004

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Police Subpeona BTK Info From Newspaper Internet Board

Investigators Want Information On 6 People Who Posted Messages

POSTED: 1:27 pm CDT April 22, 2004

UPDATED: 1:30 pm CDT April 22, 2004

WICHITA, Kan. -- The Wichita Eagle has agreed to turn over to investigators information on six people who posted messages on the newspaper's Internet message board about the BTK serial killings. At the request of Wichita police and assisting investigators, a court ordered Knight Ridder Digital, a subsidiary of the newspaper's parent company, to deliver the information. Eagle Managing Editor Sherry Chisenhall said terms of the discussion board advise users that Knight Ridder Digital reserves the right to disclose information "necessary to satisfy the law, regulation or government request."

Between 1974 and 1978, the killer known as BTK -- the name stands for "Bind, Torture, Kill" -- killed at least seven people. Last month, shortly after the 30th anniversary of the first murders, BTK sent a letter to The Eagle claiming responsibility for a 1986 killing. The newspaper started the BTK message board after it received the latest letter. The subpoena asks for all subscriber information on those six people, including profiles and credit card information. It also asks for copies of all posts as well as any information that would show the location of the computer from which they were sent. It was signed by Sedgwick County District Judge Gregory Waller. Police would not comment on the subpoena, or why they focused efforts on the six message posters. The Eagle's Thursday editions did not publicly identify the "screen names" of the six posters or the content of their messages; Chisenhall said doing so might hinder the investigation or falsely identify someone as a suspect. Hundreds of messages have been posted to the board concerning a wide range of topics related to the case, including speculation on whether a psychologist might be in the best position to catch BTK, news on an unrelated serial killer case in Kansas City, and even invitations to parties hosted by and for message board posters. The newspaper received an average of 40,000 hits per day on the message board during the first three weeks after the reports surfaced of the BTK letter to the newspaper. The board gets an average of more than 300 posts a day.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Interesting info!!

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

The sniper pinglist
The van dam pinglist
The OLD pinglist for the peterson trial
a few friends..

Of course most of us know that message boards can be of use..but I am curious as to what those 6 people did to get the attention of authorities.

I thought this would be interesting to you all for various reasons. I hope you don't mind. If you want off or on any of my lists, please let me know and I will remove you as soon as possible.

[Future Useless Eater]

Well I can understand if a murderer visits websites and leaves
clues, and LE wants to subpoena that website for EVERYTHING
they might know to capture the felon.

But most of us here have the more obvious question.
If someone like Hillary were back in the white house, and
wanted to crack down on her political enemies...

Or if a greasy lawyer wanted to shut down his opponents...

Or a lawsuit-happy con-artist/murdering husband in Florida
(hypothetically speaking of course ;-) ....
were to want to SUE in CIVIL COURT for words posted here...

--- could they succeed in getting Freeper names?

---Could we all put Jim Robinson on LEGAL RETAINER by
sending him $1.00 or more each?
(thus lawyer-client priviledge)?

The recording industry's lawsuits over mp3 downloaders should
serve as an example that people may need to seek ways
to become more anonymous online.

[archy]

Of course most of us know that message boards can be of use..but I am curious as to what those 6 people did to get the attention of authorities.

I don't know either, but considering the death squad culture exhibited by the Wichita cops, it's a fair bet that the killer could be one of them.

And this could be their way of silencing any witbnesses against them.

[archy]

The sniper pinglist

Ping! Snipers UP!

[blackbag]

While I agree this could chill the freedom of anonymous posting I will sleep well because if it was a real concern then I would take precautions before I ever posted something I couldn't stand by.

[Future Useless Eater]

>>...take precautions before I ever posted something I couldn't stand by.


Yes, but when there is OBVIOUS judicial corruption, along with
a lawsuit-happy monster, and a greedy ambulance chaser all
teamed up....

...It no longer seems to matter if what you're saying is 'right'
because these slime feel their ends justifies their means.
Just look at the flagpole homeowner in Jupiter FL who
nearly lost his house, even though he 'won' his case.

Some places, especially Florida, are ripe with judicial disrepute.

[UCANSEE2]

Please, I am honored you keep me in mind.

[Peach]

How very curious.

I wonder if some armchair detectives did such good speculating that it made authorities suspicious.

[Jackie-O]

Thanks for the ping Kim!

[runningbear]

scary thought! Gads, sometimes the internet is fantastic, this makes me wonder on invasion of privacy? Well, we all know the internet has no privacy.....;o)

[muggs]

Thanks for the ping.

[Devil_Anse]

Thank you, Kim, I do find it very interesting.

I think the investigators think the killer, or someone who knows the killer's identity, has posted there. Notice that it took a court order to make the internet forum host have to turn over whatever info they have.

If I were the owner of a forum, and I got a court order to turn over what I knew of certain posters, I'd probably do it... but what if I started being inundated with such court orders? I would begin to find it disruptive, and I would then talk to my lawyer. If it got to be routine that people could get courts to order such sharing of information, then I think forum owners would start to fight it--and in many cases, I think the forum owners would win, based on free speech protections.

I think it all comes down to how important it is that the information be turned over. Given that this is an investigation into several torture-murders, I'd say in this case, it is VERY important.

[MizSterious]

That was one of my thoughts; another was, I wonder if someone was posting false clues, claiming some kind of inside info. I've seen things posted on some topics that made me wonder if the posters were doing that. (Anyone remember Quidam?)

[MizSterious]

Your concerns are good ones, and do consider that there are calls from some quarters to have the U.N. take over the internet. There's a chilling thought for you...

[Valpal1]

Hi Kim!

I hope they actually find a link to the BTK killer from one or more of these six.

Doesn't bother me at all that they get court orders to get information. That's considerbly less than the IRS has to do in most circumstances.

Doubt seriously that the killer registered with real info (if he posted), I'm sure they can identify the computer, but can they identify where that computer is?

[Yaelle]

Fascinating, Kim; keep me on your ping list.

I suppose that if something terrible were to happen to Hillary, and there were a thread about it on FR, and someone mentioned something that the cops knew ONLY the killer and they would know (and the poster was not one of them), they'd look up that poster fairly quickly.

But it looks bad that they have taken 6 posters. Surely all 6 were not involved. There has to be a 1st amendment defense for some or all of those posters.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

That's true...

I haven't gone over to the website yet to check it out..but was wondering if maybe they were checking to see if it was the same person...

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

"Could we all put Jim Robinson on LEGAL RETAINER by
sending him $1.00 or more each?"

What a great question for an attorney. I think that since JimRob's not an atty, it wouldn't work. We are allowed to defend ourselves in court..but I am thinking non-atty's cannot defend someone else.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

It's nice to see you!

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

"...death squad culture exhibited by the Wichita cops..."

Is that true? I hadn't heard a word about that! You must have "inside info"...grin

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Peach...I wondered the same thing!

Hi Jackie! You're welcome..

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

If anything is mentioned in the news, I'll be sure to post it here. I'm hoping the reasoning behind the subpeona will be announced at some point.

[Porterville]

Yes, but when there is OBVIOUS judicial corruption, along with a lawsuit-happy monster, and a greedy ambulance chaser all teamed up.... ...It no longer seems to matter if what you're saying is 'right' because these slime feel their ends justifies their means. Just look at the flagpole homeowner in Jupiter FL who nearly lost his house, even though he 'won' his case.

Yeah, but at that point it's worth dying for... and at that point... I know I would have nothing to lose... especially if I got really pissed.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

muggs: You're welcome

valpal/DA.... I agree, that if revealing info would help solve such a serious crime, that by all means...forum owners should be cooperative. I appreciate the fact that they did go get court orders because it protects the forum owner from liability.

[archy]

WPD Chief Norm Williams [called Chief Wiggums behind his back by his cops after the donught munching chief from The Simpsons cartoon show] applied for a new position, was concerned that he wouldn't be viewed as professional/aggressive as some of the alternative choices [he's black, and comes from a town of under a half million population] and gave orders to the boys to push harder. Accordingly, 3 officer shootings in 3 months. Only one of the "perps" is in a ditch now, but time will tell on this last one. Four rounds into his chest as far as I've heard. And of course those are the shootings that have been officially reported, there's been WPD locker room talk about a couple others off the books. Shoot, shovel and shut up, and don't embarras Chief Wiggums, and maybe we'll be rid of him.... That seems to be the WPD motto lately.

Neither does it help Wiggums chances to flee Wichita that federal investigators are now seriously considering the possibility that the BTK serial killer murdering prostitutes is a cop who's decided to clean out some of the local and other ho's, tired of the one's who are paid off and protected sassing cops, who they're now genuinely afraid of- they now may not only bust a hooker who'll be back on the streets out on bond in less than 8 hours to have her lawyer get her case dismissed, but they may kill her and have a little fun beforehand that won't be any fun at all for her: More on the BTK serial killer/s here.

BTW, some of the feds working on the case think that maybe one BTK is doing the killings, with another doing the body dumpings, with maybe one being a cop, or possibly both.

And of course, there's one other possibility. And if Chief Wiggums gets the Chief's job in Dallas, and the BTK murders shift location to there, we'll have a better idea of both how come BTK got away with it so long, and why the vacation spell from killing for a while.

Mr. Dawson Grimsley, Davis Moore Inc., presents Wichita Police Chief Norman Williams and Officer Kelly Mar with a $5,000 donation to the Police Department’s Ident-a-Kid program.

You get just one guess which one is Chief Wiggums.

[archy]

Fri, Mar. 19, 2004

Officer fatally shoots man

It's the third incident in recent weeks in which someone has died or been seriously hurt and Wichita police were involved.

BY TIM POTTER

The Wichita Eagle

A Wichita police officer responding to a report of a burglary in progress Thursday shot and killed a resident who threatened another officer with a hunting knife, police said.

The officer shot the man multiple times after the man kept advancing toward a fellow officer who used pepper spray against the man, Police Chief Norman Williams said. The one officer fired because the other officer had to retreat toward a wall in a basement stairwell, Williams said.

It was the third time in the recent weeks that someone has died or been seriously injured in an incident involving Wichita police.

On Thursday, the man received repeated warnings before he was shot, Williams said.

Asked to reflect on the incidents, Williams said: "You're always concerned when you have the number of incidents we've had.

"Why are they not listening to police... when clear commands are given?"

In the latest incident, police would not provide the man's name, and his family could not be reached for comment. He was in his 40s, police said, and lived in Apartment 102 of Kingston Cove Apartments, 2806 S. Osage.

The man, shot in the torso, was pronounced dead at Via Christi Regional Medical Center-St. Francis Campus at 12:03 p.m., less than an hour after the shooting, police said.

Part of the investigation will focus on whether police had contact with the man before, Williams said.

So far, Williams said, police have determined that:

At 11:07 a.m., the 911 emergency dispatch system received a call from a man in Apartment 102 reporting someone in his home. Four minutes later, police officers approached the apartment.

One officer somehow knew the resident's name and called it out. The resident came to the door with a knife in hand. Police told the man repeatedly to put the knife down, but the man -- still holding the knife --"aggressively advanced" toward an officer, Williams said.

The officer sprayed Mace toward the man and found himself having to back up toward a wall in the basement stairwell.

Another officer "felt that his fellow officer's life was being threatened" and shot the man, who ended up just outside his apartment, Williams said.

Initially, police said two officers had fired weapons, but later it was determined only one officer shot the man, Williams said.

As unfortunate as the man's death was, Williams said, if the officer had not fired, "we may have had an officer cut severely."

Wichita police Detective Danny Farlow, who trains police on how to defend against what he calls "edged weapons," said someone with a knife can rapidly advance on an officer.

Farlow, who would not comment on Thursday's shooting, said generally an officer needs at least 21 feet between himself and an assailant with an edged weapon to be able to safely draw a gun and fire two rounds in time.

Police are trained that it can be appropriate to use a handgun against someone with a knife because a knife can be a deadly weapon, Farlow said.

He also tells officers to "create distance between you and the weapon" if possible.

Meanwhile, as part of the standard response, the officers involved in Thursday's shooting are being put on administrative leave. The Kansas Bureau of Investigation will investigate the shooting and present its findings to the Sedgwick County district attorney's office.

Bob Martin, a retiree who lives near the apartment where the officer shot the man, said he heard three gunshots in quick succession, "loud and clear." Some neighbors said they heard more than three shots.

Martin stepped outside and saw a police officer who seemed upset. "It's got to be pretty horrendous to have to shoot somebody," Martin said.

He saw paramedics giving CPR to a man on a stretcher being taken from the apartment building. Martin recognized the man as a neighbor, though he didn't know the man's name.

"I was really shocked when I saw him," Martin said.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

It sounds like a legitimate use of getting information to solve a crime as long as the innocent posters names aren't made public. I hope they catch this guy before he does the same thing to someone else.

[lakey]

I wonder if some armchair detectives did such good speculating that it made authorities suspicious.

LOL! Possibly. At times, the thought has occurred to me on FR that someone might be trying to mislead re: evidence, timelines, on certain cases.

[STOCKHRSE]

Thanks for the Ping, Kim

Please put me on all your lists.
Ray

[rwfromkansas]

Seem to know a lot about the Wichita PD.

[archy]

Seem to know a lot about the Wichita PD.

Perhaps a little bird told me.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Thanks for posting both of the articles..I had no idea. Sorry for taking so long to reply. It's been really hectic here..