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The Lessons of 9/11
LewRockwell.com ^ | 22 April 04 | Rep. Ron Paul

Posted on 04/23/2004 7:37:57 AM PDT by u-89

The Lessons of 9/11

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Home | About | Columnists | Blog

Before the US House of Representatives, April 22, 2004

We are constantly admonished to remember the lessons of 9/11. Of course the real issue is not remembering, but rather knowing what the pertinent lesson of that sad day is.

The 9/11 Commission soon will release its report after months of fanfare by those whose reputations are at stake. The many hours and dollars spent on the investigation may well reveal little we don’t already know, while ignoring the most important lessons that should be learned from this egregious attack on our homeland. Common sense already tells us the tens of billions of dollars spent by government agencies, whose job it is to provide security and intelligence for our country, failed.

A full-fledged investigation into the bureaucracy may help us in the future, but one should never pretend that government bureaucracies can be made efficient. It is the very nature of bureaucracies to be inefficient. Spending an inordinate amount of time finger pointing will distract from the real lessons of 9/11. Which agency, which department, or which individual receives the most blame should not be the main purpose of the investigation.

Despite our serious failure to prevent the attacks, it’s disturbing to see how politicized the whole investigation has become. Which political party receives the greatest blame is a high stakes election-year event, and distracts from the real lessons ignored by both sides.

Everyone on the Commission assumes that 9/11 resulted from a lack of government action. No one in Washington has raised the question of whether our shortcomings, brought to light by 9/11, could have been a result of too much government. Possibly in the final report we will discuss this, but to date no one has questioned the assumption that we need more government and, of course – though elusive – a more efficient one.

The failure to understand the nature of the enemy who attacked us on 9/11, along with a pre-determined decision to initiate a pre-emptive war against Iraq, prompted our government to deceive the people into believing that Saddam Hussein had something to do with the attacks on New York and Washington. The majority of the American people still contend the war against Iraq was justified because of the events of 9/11. These misinterpretations have led to many U.S. military deaths and casualties, prompting a growing number of Americans to question the wisdom of our presence and purpose in a strange foreign land 6,000 miles from our shores.

The neo-conservative defenders of our policy in Iraq speak of the benefits that we have brought to the Iraqi people: removal of a violent dictator, liberation, democracy, and prosperity. If all this were true, the resistance against our occupation would not be growing. We ought to admit we have not been welcomed as liberators as was promised by the proponents of the war.

Though we hear much about the so-called “benefits” we have delivered to the Iraqi people and the Middle East, we hear little talk of the cost to the American people: lives lost, soldiers maimed for life, uncounted thousands sent home with diseased bodies and minds, billions of dollars consumed, and a major cloud placed over U.S. markets and the economy. Sharp political divisions, reminiscent of the 1960s, are arising at home.

Failing to understand why 9/11 happened and looking for a bureaucratic screw-up to explain the whole thing – while using the event to start an unprovoked war unrelated to 9/11 – have dramatically compounded the problems all Americans and the world face. Evidence has shown that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and the guerilla attacks on New York and Washington, and since no weapons of mass destruction were found, other reasons are given for invading Iraq. The real reasons are either denied or ignored: oil, neo-conservative empire building, and our support for Israel over the Palestinians.

The proponents of the Iraqi war do not hesitate to impugn the character of those who point out the shortcomings of current policy, calling them unpatriotic and appeasers of terrorism. It is said that they are responsible for the growing armed resistance, and for the killing of American soldiers. It’s conveniently ignored that if the opponents of the current policy had prevailed, not one single American would have died nor would tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have suffered the same fate.

Al Qaeda and many new militant groups would not be enjoying a rapid growth in their ranks. By denying that our sanctions and bombs brought havoc to Iraq, it’s easy to play the patriot card and find a scapegoat to blame. We are never at fault and never responsible for bad outcomes of what many believe is, albeit well-intentioned, interference in the affairs of others 6,000 miles from our shores.

Pursuing our policy has boiled down to “testing our resolve.” It is said by many – even some who did not support the war – that now we have no choice but to “stay the course.” They argue that it’s a noble gesture to be courageous and continue no matter how difficult. But that should not be the issue. It is not a question of resolve, but rather a question of wise policy. If the policy is flawed and the world and our people are less safe for it, unshakable resolve is the opposite of what we need. Staying the course only makes sense when the difficult tasks are designed to protect our country and to thwart those who pose a direct threat to us. Wilsonian idealism of self-sacrifice to “make the world safe for democracy” should never be an excuse to wage preemptive war – especially since it almost never produces the desired results. There are always too many unintended consequences.

In our effort to change the political structure of Iraq, we continue alliances with dictators and even develop new ones with countries that are anything but democracies. We have a close alliance with Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, many other Arab dictatorships, and a new one with Kadafi of Libya. This should raise questions about the credibility of our commitment to promoting democracy in Iraq – which even our own government wouldn’t tolerate.

Show me one neo-con that would accept a national election that put the radical Shiites in charge. As Secretary Rumsfeld said, it’s not going to happen. These same people are condemning the recent democratic decisions made in Spain. We should remember that since World War II, in 35 U.S. attempts to promote democracy around the world none have succeeded.

Promoters of war too often fail to contemplate the unintended consequences of an aggressive foreign policy. So far, the anti-war forces have not been surprised with the chaos that has now become Iraq, or Iran’s participation – but even they cannot know all the long-term shortcomings of such a policy.

In an eagerness to march on Baghdad, the neo-cons gloated – and I heard them – of the “shock and awe” that was about to hit the Iraqi people. It turns out that the real shock and awe is that we’re further from peace in Iraq than we were a year ago – and Secretary Rumsfeld admits his own surprise.

The only policy now offered is to escalate the war and avenge the deaths of American soldiers – if they kill 10 of our troops, we’ll kill 100 of theirs. Up until now, announcing the number of Iraqi deaths has been avoided purposely, but the new policy announces our success by the number of Iraqis killed. But the more we kill, the greater the incitement of the radical Islamic militants. The harder we try to impose our will on them, the greater the resistance becomes.

Amazingly, our occupation has done what was at one time thought to be impossible – it has united the Sunnis and Shiites against our presence. Although this is probably temporary, it is real and has deepened our problems in securing Iraq. The results are an escalation of the conflict and the requirement for more troops. This acceleration of the killing is called “pacification” – a bit of 1984 newspeak.

The removal of Saddam Hussein has created a stark irony. The willingness and intensity of the Iraqi people to fight for their homeland has increased many times over. Under Saddam Hussein, essentially no resistance occurred. Instead of jubilation and parades for the liberators, we face much greater and unified efforts to throw out all foreigners than when Saddam Hussein was in charge.

It’s not whether the Commission investigation of the causes of 9/11 is unwarranted; since the Commissioners are looking in the wrong places for answers, it’s whether much will be achieved.

I’m sure we will hear that the bureaucracy failed, whether it was the FBI, the CIA, the NSC, or all of them for failure to communicate with each other. This will not answer the question of why we were attacked and why our defenses were so poor. Even though 40 billion dollars are spent on intelligence gathering each year, the process failed us. It’s likely to be said that what we need is more money and more efficiency. Yet, that approach fails to recognize that depending on government agencies to be efficient is a risky assumption.

We should support efforts to make the intelligence agencies more effective, but one thing is certain: more money won’t help. Of the 40 billion dollars spent annually for intelligence, too much is spent on nation building and activities unrelated to justified surveillance.

There are two other lessons that must be learned if we hope to benefit by studying and trying to explain the disaster that hit us on 9/11. If we fail to learn them, we cannot be made safer and the opposite is more likely to occur.

The first point is to understand who assumes most of the responsibility for the security of our homes and businesses in a free society. It’s not the police. There are too few of them, and it’s not their job to stand guard outside our houses or places of business. More crime occurs in the inner city, where there are not only more police, but more restrictions on property owners’ rights to bear and use weapons if invaded by hoodlums. In safer rural areas, where every home has a gun and someone in it who is willing to use it is, there is no false dependency on the police protecting them, but full reliance on the owner’s responsibility to deal with any property violators. This understanding works rather well – at least better than in the inner cities where the understanding is totally different.

How does this apply to the 9/11 tragedies? The airline owners accepted the rules of the inner city rather than those of rural America. They all assumed that the government was in charge of airline security – and unfortunately, by law, it was. Not only were the airlines complacent about security, but the FAA dictated all the rules relating to potential hijacking. Chemical plants or armored truck companies that carry money make the opposite assumption, and private guns do a reasonably good job in providing security. Evidently we think more of our money and chemical plants than we do our passengers on airplanes.

The complacency of the airlines is one thing, but the intrusiveness of the FAA is another. Two specific regulations proved to be disastrous for dealing with the thugs who, without even a single gun, took over four airliners and created the havoc of 9/11. Both the prohibition against guns in cockpits and precise instructions that crews not resist hijackers contributed immensely to the horrors of 9/11.

Instead of immediately legalizing a natural right of personal self-defense guaranteed by an explicit Second Amendment freedom, we still do not have armed pilots in the sky. Instead of more responsibility being given to the airlines, the government has taken over the entire process. This has been encouraged by the airline owners, who seek subsidies and insurance protection. Of course, the nonsense of never resisting has been forever vetoed by all passengers.

Unfortunately, the biggest failure of our government will be ignored. I’m sure the Commission will not connect our foreign policy of interventionism – practiced by both major parties for over a hundred years – as an important reason 9/11 occurred. Instead, the claims will stand that the motivation behind 9/11 was our freedom, prosperity, and way of life. If this error persists, all the tinkering and money to improve the intelligence agencies will bear little fruit.

Over the years the entire psychology of national defense has been completely twisted. Very little attention had been directed toward protecting our national borders and providing homeland security.

Our attention, all too often, was and still is directed outward toward distant lands. Now a significant number of our troops are engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq. We’ve kept troops in Korea for over 50 years, and thousands of troops remain in Europe and in over 130 other countries. This twisted philosophy of ignoring national borders while pursuing an empire created a situation where Seoul, Korea, was better protected than Washington, DC, on 9/11. These priorities must change, but I’m certain the 9/11 Commission will not address this issue.

This misdirected policy has prompted the current protracted war in Iraq, which has gone on for 13 years with no end in sight. The al Qaeda attacks should not be used to justify more intervention; instead they should be seen as a guerilla attacks against us for what the Arabs and Muslim world see as our invasion and interference in their homelands. This cycle of escalation is rapidly spreading the confrontation worldwide between the Christian West and the Muslim East. With each escalation, the world becomes more dangerous. It is especially made worse when we retaliate against Muslims and Arabs who had nothing to do with 9/11 – as we have in Iraq – further confirming the suspicions of the Muslim masses that our goals are more about oil and occupation than they are about punishing those responsible for 9/11.

Those who claim that Iraq is another Vietnam are wrong. They can’t be the same. There are too many differences in time, place, and circumstance. But that doesn’t mean the Iraqi conflict cannot last longer, spread throughout the region and throughout the world – making it potentially much worse than what we suffered in Vietnam. In the first 6 years we were in Vietnam, we lost less than 500 troops. Over 700 have been killed in Iraq in just over a year.

Our failure to pursue al Qaeda and bin Laden in Pakistan and Afghanistan – and diverting resources to Iraq – have seriously compromised our ability to maintain a favorable world opinion of support and cooperation in this effort.

Instead, we have chaos in Iraq while the Islamists are being financed by a booming drug business from U.S.-occupied Afghanistan.

Continuing to deny that the attacks against us are related to our overall policy of foreign meddling through many years and many administrations, makes a victory over our enemies nearly impossible. Not understanding the true nature and motivation of those who have and will commit deadly attacks against us prevents a sensible policy from being pursued. Guerilla warriors, who are willing to risk and sacrifice everything as part of a war they see as defensive, are a far cry, philosophically, from a band of renegades who out of unprovoked hate seek to destroy us and kill themselves in the process. How we fight back depends on understanding these differences.

Of course, changing our foreign policy to one of no pre-emptive war, no nation building, no entangling alliances, no interference in the internal affairs of other nations, and trade and friendship with all who seek it, is no easy task.

The real obstacle, though, is to understand the motives behind our current policy of perpetual meddling in the affairs of others for more than a hundred years.

Understanding why both political parties agree on the principle of continuous foreign intervention is crucial. Those reasons are multiple and varied. They range from the persistent Wilsonian idealism of making the world safe for democracy to the belief that we must protect “our” oil.

Also contributing to this bi-partisan, foreign policy view is the notion that promoting world government is worthwhile. This involves support for the United Nations, NATO, control of the world’s resources through the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, NAFTA, FTAA, and the Law of the Sea Treaty – all of which gain the support of those sympathetic to the poor and socialism, while too often the benefits accrue to the well-connected international corporations and bankers sympathetic to economic fascism.

Sadly, in the process the people are forgotten, especially those who pay the taxes, those whose lives are sacrificed in no-win undeclared wars, and the unemployed and poor as the economic consequences of financing our foreign entanglements evolve.

Regardless of one’s enthusiasm or lack thereof for the war and the general policy of maintaining American troops in more than 130 countries, one cold fact soon must be recognized by all of us in Congress. The American people cannot afford it, and when the market finally recognizes the over commitment we’ve made, the results will not be pleasing to anyone.

A “guns and butter” policy was flawed in the 60s, and gave us interest rates of 21% in the 70s with high inflation rates. The current “guns and butter” policy is even more intense, and our economic infrastructure is more fragile than it was back then. These facts dictate our inability to continue this policy both internationally and domestically. It is true, an unshakable resolve to stay the course in Iraq, or any other hot spot, can be pursued for years. But when a country is adding to its future indebtedness by over 700 billion dollars per year it can only be done with great economic harm to all our citizens.

Huge deficits, financed by borrowing and Federal Reserve monetization, are an unsustainable policy and always lead to higher price inflation, higher interest rates, a continued erosion of the dollar’s value, and a faltering economy. Economic law dictates that the standard of living then must go down for all Americans – except for the privileged few who have an inside track on government largess – if this policy of profligate spending continues. Ultimately, the American people, especially the younger generation, will have to decide whether to languish with current policy or reject the notion that perpetual warfare and continued growth in entitlements should be pursued indefinitely.

Conclusion

I’m sure the Commission will not deal with the flaw in the foreign policy endorsed by both parties for these many decades. I hope the Commission tells us why members of the bin Laden family were permitted, immediately after 9/11, to leave the United States without interrogation, when no other commercial or private flights were allowed. That event should have been thoroughly studied and explained to the American people. We actually had a lot more reason to invade Saudi Arabia than we did Iraq in connection with 9/11, but that country, obviously no friend of democracy, remains an unchallenged ally of the United States with few questions asked.

I’m afraid the Commission will answer only a few questions while raising many new ones. Overall though, the Commission has been beneficial and provides some reassurance to those who believe we operate in a much too closed society. Fortunately, any administration, under the current system, still must respond to reasonable inquiries.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Foreign Affairs; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: iraq; lessons; ronpaul; terrorism; war
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1 posted on 04/23/2004 7:37:59 AM PDT by u-89
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To: A. Pole; mr.pink; Liz; billbears; sheltonmac; Burkeman1; JohnGalt; ex-snook; ...
Ron Paul on foreign policy ping. You might "enjoy" the resulting posts.
2 posted on 04/23/2004 7:41:01 AM PDT by u-89
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To: u-89
Could be interesting.
3 posted on 04/23/2004 7:56:37 AM PDT by Huck (In the Soviet Union, the Admin Moderators ruled.)
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To: Huck
There is too much common sense in Paul's remarks. This is not good in a world that loves a little insanity.
4 posted on 04/23/2004 8:08:35 AM PDT by meenie
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To: u-89
>> one should never pretend that government bureaucracies can be made efficient. It is the very nature of bureaucracies to be inefficient. ... No one in Washington has raised the question of whether our shortcomings, brought to light by 9/11, could have been a result of too much government. <<

The failures of bureaucracy are legendary. The stupidity of bureaucracy has long since made it into the dictionary. As long as we see with our eyes and believe with our heads that socialism can't do anything right, Ron Paul has the right focus here for fresh thinking about 9/11.

5 posted on 04/23/2004 8:15:44 AM PDT by T'wit (There's no evidence "Bush lied." But I can PROVE Bill Clinton told the truth -- once.)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: u-89
Excellent post. Must read ping.
7 posted on 04/23/2004 9:07:19 AM PDT by Liz
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To: u-89
A “guns and butter” policy was flawed in the 60s, and gave us interest rates of 21% in the 70s with high inflation rates. The current “guns and butter” policy is even more intense, and our economic infrastructure is more fragile than it was back then. These facts dictate our inability to continue this policy both internationally and domestically. It is true, an unshakable resolve to stay the course in Iraq, or any other hot spot, can be pursued for years. But when a country is adding to its future indebtedness by over 700 billion dollars per year it can only be done with great economic harm to all our citizens

One can only imagine what this will do to the next generation. The next 'recession' will make the 70s look like a cakewalk.

There are too many differences in time, place, and circumstance. But that doesn’t mean the Iraqi conflict cannot last longer, spread throughout the region and throughout the world – making it potentially much worse than what we suffered in Vietnam

Rep. Paul is also right in this instance. This isn't like Vietnam. The influx from all borders of Iraq of an unlimited population of Arabs could make this a situation worse than Vietnam. Only time will tell. But time has already told us that it was an unwise move at the least to attack a nation that did not represent, nor would in near future, a direct threat to this nation of states

This is the type of conservative that needs to run for office. Not the lettered ones, the actual conservatives. That will be the only way to save this nation of states in the long run

8 posted on 04/23/2004 10:05:12 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: Huck
I don't think the responses will be as interesting as usual because of the very interesting change in this article by Paul: he decided not to lie about the foreign policy of our Founding Fathers to support his view!

Of course that meant that he could not refer at all to our Constitution or to the people who wrote and implemented it.
He accepted that and tried to support his anti-interventionist thesis on it's own.
Flawed though this attempt may be by assumptions and rhetoric, it doesn't inspire the vehement responses that result from someone lying about our Founding Fathers.


This is a very promising change in Paul, I hope it is permanent and that his followers take heed from his example.

9 posted on 04/23/2004 10:23:38 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Could you give a few examples of these "lies" you are speaking of?
10 posted on 04/23/2004 10:28:17 AM PDT by JohnGalt (Chalabi Republicans: Soft on Treason)
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To: JohnGalt
His most fantastic anti-interventionist lie was that foreign aid was not constitutional- although we have been paying it continually since the first Washington administration and even our strictest originalist, President James Madison, signed a law to give $50,000 free and clear to Venezuela.

So the change is very striking, and I applaud him for it and heartily recommend it to his followers.

11 posted on 04/23/2004 10:58:52 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Your proof that foreign aid is Constitutional is your reference of several early Presidents have paid foreign aid?

And this, in your logic, constitutes a 'lie'?

Do I have that correct?

Pray tell, how do you characterize the 'WMD' fictions?
12 posted on 04/23/2004 11:07:27 AM PDT by JohnGalt (Chalabi Republicans: Soft on Treason)
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To: JohnGalt
You don't think that the writers, ratifiers and implementers of the Constitution are authoritative of it's meaning?

Well, I'm not surprised, none of the living constitution crowd do.

13 posted on 04/23/2004 11:22:35 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: meenie
Rep. Paul is too honest and makes too much sense to be a longterm successful politician, in either party.
14 posted on 04/23/2004 11:28:13 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: All
JohnGalt is still here?
15 posted on 04/23/2004 11:31:09 AM PDT by Belisaurius ("Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, Ted" - Joseph Kennedy 1958)
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To: mrsmith
As far as I can tell, your specious logic suggests that an action is Constitutional if the Chief Executive 'says so.' Furthermore, beyond that childlike reasoning, you contend that those who disagree with you are 'liars.'

Which section of the Constitution that allows for 'foreign aid' are you citing so that I may understand your case?

You also skipped the WMD question I posed as to how you characterize those fictions.
16 posted on 04/23/2004 11:39:04 AM PDT by JohnGalt (Chalabi Republicans: Soft on Treason)
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To: JohnGalt
You don't think that the writers, ratifiers and implementers of the Constitution are authoritative of it's meaning?

Well, I'm not surprised, none of the living constitution crowd do.


What else would I have to say to you?

17 posted on 04/23/2004 11:41:44 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
You came to this thread calling Ron Paul a liar; I was curious how charlatans like yourself reasoned that conclusion.

You have yet to cite a single point from the Constitution to justify your belief that 'foreign aid' is Constitutional in your logic, and furthermore, your conclusion that people who disagree with you are 'liars' is bizarre to say the least.

Son, you are the living Constitution crowd; you believe it means whatever the Chief Exec says it means.
18 posted on 04/23/2004 11:56:24 AM PDT by JohnGalt (Chalabi Republicans: Soft on Treason)
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To: JohnGalt
You don't think that the writers, ratifiers and implementers of the Constitution are authoritative of it's meaning?

Well, I'm not surprised, none of the living constitution crowd do.

19 posted on 04/23/2004 11:58:43 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Mrs. Mith, can you please tell us where in the Constitution or the Federalist Papers for that matter the Congress or the Executive Branch is given the power to give the tax payers money to foreign states?
20 posted on 04/23/2004 12:02:14 PM PDT by JohnGalt (Chalabi Republicans: Soft on Treason)
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To: u-89; billbears; JohnGalt; Burkeman1
We should remember that since World War II, in 35 U.S. attempts to promote democracy around the world none have succeeded.

From the neocon perspective, that's known as a winning streak.

21 posted on 04/23/2004 12:37:35 PM PDT by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: u-89
I like what ron paul has to say- but I honestly think his writing style is flat. Something about it just doesn't jaz me.
22 posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:46 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ("I said the government can't help you. I didn't say it couldn't hurt you." Chief Wiggam)
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To: billbears
This isn't like Vietnam. The influx from all borders of Iraq of an unlimited population of Arabs could make this a situation worse than Vietnam. Only time will tell.

While this conflict seems to be esculang far more rapidly than Viet Nam- I am not sure Iraq will ever see those kids of casualties as were suffered in Viet Nam. For one thing- military technology - both offensive and defensive is much better than 30 years ago. Battle field medicine is far better today as well.

But the biggest reason Iraq will most likely be a long slow bleeding wound with perhaps 500 to 1000 KIA a year and not like Viet Nam (thousandns killed a year from 67 to 71) is that there is no superpower life line to sustain these insurgents.

23 posted on 04/23/2004 4:30:57 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ("I said the government can't help you. I didn't say it couldn't hurt you." Chief Wiggam)
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To: Burkeman1
I'm not sure I'm necessarily talking about the death toll (although granted I do believe that will grow). Moreso of the actual control the US Armed Forces have in Iraq at any given time. There will be some parts that are firmly in US control, although many parts will not be. I think I was speaking more to that aspect. That and the fact that US Armed Forces will be there for many years with no definitive exit strategy and no definitive marked end to hostilities
24 posted on 04/23/2004 5:46:56 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: billbears
Yes- I agree to that. We will do as we have done in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. Set up a De Jure local puppet government that has no power outside of it's few buildings in the center of the capital city, strike deals and pay bribes to various gangsters and warlords and let them rule their turf like autonomous Feudal Lords- even let them fight small scal wars. Meanwhile we will hold up in our bases and rarely have anthing to do with the people or the country. The Iraqis will live in squalor and terror under thugs. We will point to our puppet "elected" government in Baghadad. And the violence against and depredations of the Iraqi people will be reported- if at all- on page 22b right next to the story of the last Serbs being driven out of Kosovo under our "watch."
25 posted on 04/23/2004 5:54:32 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ("I said the government can't help you. I didn't say it couldn't hurt you." Chief Wiggam)
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To: mrsmith
> President James Madison, signed a law to give $50,000 free and clear to Venezuela.

James Madison was president from 1809 to 1817. Venezuela did not achieve full independence until 1830. Here is the history, in a nutshell:

After several unsuccessful uprisings, the country achieved independence from Spain in 1821 under the leadership of its most famous son, Simon Bolivar. Venezuela, along with what are now Colombia, Panama, and Ecuador, was part of the Republic of Gran Colombia until 1830, when it separated and became a sovereign country.

26 posted on 04/24/2004 8:12:29 AM PDT by T'wit (There's no evidence "Bush lied." But I can PROVE Bill Clinton told the truth -- once.)
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To: T'wit
"Senate Journal --TUESDAY, MAY 12, 1812... A message from the House of Representatives, by Mr. Magruder, their Clerk:

Mr. President: The President of the United States, on the 4th instant, approved and signed "An act further to amend the charter of the city of Washington;" and, on the 8th instant, "An act for the relief of the citizens of Venezuela";..."

$50,000 of foreign aid after their terrible earthquake near Caracas.
Perhaps the congress used "Venezuela" to refer to that area of Gran Columbia- though it does seem extremely undiplomatic not to have used the name of the country!

27 posted on 04/24/2004 8:41:03 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Venezuela was a provisional territory but, as noted, did not win independence until 1821 (and Spain didn't acknowledge it until 1845). In effect it was still part of Spain, which was at war with England, which was at war with the U.S. Spain was, at least for the moment, an ally in war.

There was indeed a devastating earthquake in Caracas, on March 26th, or 28th, or May 25th, 1812, depending on which source you read. Congress brought up the aid question smack in the middle of debates on war resolutions in both houses. Whether Congress had humanitarian aid in mind, or left-handed aid to a military ally, is hard to say. But it is a given that wartime "emergency" measures often encroach on the Constitution, or ignore it altogether.

Foreign aid is not one of the ennumerated powers, so by strict construction, it is unquestionably unconstitutional.

28 posted on 04/24/2004 9:25:41 AM PDT by T'wit (There's no evidence "Bush lied." But I can PROVE Bill Clinton told the truth -- once.)
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To: u-89
The majority of the American people still contend the war against Iraq was justified because of the events of 9/11.

President George W. Bush on September 15, 2001:

President Urges Readiness and Patience

Excerpt:

We will not only deal with those who dare attack America, we will deal with those who harbor them and feed them and house them.

No deception.

I used to admire Ron, but he's become a hysteric who traffics in falsehoods.

29 posted on 04/24/2004 9:39:41 AM PDT by cyncooper
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To: meenie
To have common sense you need facts on your side.

That is what is missing from Paul's rant.
30 posted on 04/24/2004 9:40:33 AM PDT by cyncooper
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To: u-89
The willingness and intensity of the Iraqi people to fight for their homeland has increased many times over.

If Dr. Paul's really suggesting that the militias have genuine, freely chosen, grassroots support among the Iraqi people, then he's just plain misrepresenting the facts. A rebel leader that truly has the support of his people wouldn't be hiding behind women and children to take potshots at our forces, and then dare us to counterattack so he can blame the resulting deaths of innocents on us.

31 posted on 04/24/2004 10:44:21 AM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: mrsmith
You don't think that the writers, ratifiers and implementers of the Constitution are authoritative of it's meaning?

Are you aware that the very first SCOTUS decision to invalidate an act of Congress, invalidated a portion of an act that was passed by the very first Congress? As we can see, their judgements on the Constitution were not perfect. In some cases they went with expediency without giving due regard to whether their actions were constitutional. They were human, after all. They made mistakes like everyone else.

You've been asked by more than one poster to explain how the Constitution authorizes foreign aid. It would be much appreciated if you'd answer that question, if you have an answer.

32 posted on 04/24/2004 10:49:49 AM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: T'wit; inquest
"Whether Congress had humanitarian aid in mind, or left-handed aid to a military ally, is hard to say. "

Of course, but obviously we both agree that they would consider it a neccessary and proper expenditure in the conduct of war.

It would be most extraordinarily stupid of them to think otherwise since we would still be colonies of England if France and others hadn't given us aid as part of their war against England!

Since we all agree with the Founding Fathers and the congress of 1812 that foreign aid is a constitutional means of conducting war (and please tell me of any objections to this understanding!), do either of you care to take a guess at the other way the Constitution authorizes foreign aid (it was the one mentioned in the debate over the relief act)?

33 posted on 04/24/2004 3:26:57 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
"mentioned in the debate"

Mentioned in an article about the debate- I haven't read the actual debate.

34 posted on 04/24/2004 3:35:26 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
>> Of course, but obviously we both agree that they would consider it a neccessary and proper expenditure in the conduct of war.

Who said I agree? I do not. That Congress or the other branches do thus or so is no argument whatsoever that such action is constitutional. The government has a long, sorry history of usurping unlawful powers -- such as this Caracas earthquake relief bill -- that are not specifically granted by the Constitution.

Many years ago, I came across a FREEMAN story based on an 1884 biography that explained the issue exceptionally clearly -- i.e., why seemingly kind and charitable acts by the the government are not only unconstitutional but subversive of the whole American vision of a free nation. Google immediately turned up several copies of this story, and it reads as well as ever. I link the first one I came across, though I know nothing of the web site. Anyone with an interest in the issue should enjoy this tale and its lessons.

SOCKDOLAGER -- A tale of Colonel Crockett and the Constitution

35 posted on 04/24/2004 8:00:35 PM PDT by T'wit (There's no evidence "Bush lied." But I can PROVE Bill Clinton told the truth -- once.)
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To: meenie
There is too much common sense in Paul's remarks. This is not good in a world that loves a little insanity.

Exactly.

36 posted on 04/25/2004 1:40:28 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: Burkeman1
But the biggest reason Iraq will most likely be a long slow bleeding wound with perhaps 500 to 1000 KIA a year and not like Viet Nam (thousandns killed a year from 67 to 71) is that there is no superpower life line to sustain these insurgents.

I agree, there will not be a large scale battles like in Vietnam for the reasons you mentioned. Iraq can be more similar to Algeria (against French) or Iraq before WWII (against British). Still, sufficient (low tech) foreign help will be coming from Iran and Syria. It is matter of survival for these two regimes to secure American failure in Iraq.

37 posted on 04/25/2004 1:49:01 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: mrsmith
Of course, but obviously we both agree that they would consider it a neccessary and proper expenditure in the conduct of war.

What war? The War of 1812 broke out a month after Congress voted to provide (purely nonmilitary) aid to Venezuela, so try again.

38 posted on 04/25/2004 10:25:34 AM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
What war?

ANY war: Madison's war, Jefferson's Barbary War or Adams' Quasi-War to keep it to the Founding Fathers.

Did the Founding Fathers consider foreign aid a neccessary and proper expenditure in the conduct of war?

It's not a hard, unfair, or trick question inquest.

39 posted on 04/25/2004 2:24:29 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: T'wit
So you defend Paul by saying that Madison was a usurper of the Constitution. Paul isn't dishonest- Madison was!
Fascinating, I don't understand why Paul's defenders feel insulting the Founding Fathers is a defense of him. But it always happens on Paul threads.

(BTW: you forgot to mention that Madison was a slaveholder. I think that is de riguer!)

Crockett's remarks on the abuse of the Welfare Clause are very good, though they have nothing to do with foreign aid.
Frankly, I admire Paul for being one of the few who take much the same view, like Madison did. But that just makes his past lying about the government's foreign powers more offensive to me.

As I said, I'm glad to see him avoid that in this article and wish his followers would take up his example.

40 posted on 04/25/2004 2:35:54 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
I didn't say anything about Paul and I didn't say anything about Madison. You are talking to yourself. Have a nice life.
41 posted on 04/25/2004 2:51:27 PM PDT by T'wit (There's no evidence "Bush lied." But I can PROVE Bill Clinton told the truth -- once.)
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To: T'wit
I thought I made it clear that Madison signed the Venezuela foreign aid bill.

Oh well, sorry if we misunderstood one another. Have a nice life indeed.

42 posted on 04/25/2004 3:03:02 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: u-89
How little blame do I see for the liberals and their "peace dividend" that allowed cuts in defense and intelligence spending.

How little faith do I see in a war that is not run by politicians (like Reps from Texas) but by generals.

How little thought do I see in examining the problem of terrorism, a problem that will not be solved by diplomacy or deficit cutting or Representatives with agendas.

43 posted on 04/25/2004 3:07:17 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi
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To: mrsmith
ANY war: Madison's war, Jefferson's Barbary War or Adams' Quasi-War to keep it to the Founding Fathers.

I don't think you understood my point. We weren't at war at the time the aid was rendered to Venezuela, and the aid was not of a military nature.

44 posted on 04/26/2004 10:14:23 AM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
I said that as far as I knew the Venezuela aid was not given under the war clause. So it seems kinda strange that I should be asked to make the case that it was.
The poster that reasoned that it might have been war aid has since gone on to other pursuits...

I guess no one is going to say out loud that foreign aid is authorized under the war clause- but neither are they going to deny it.
Oh well there'll be more threads.

45 posted on 04/26/2004 10:38:22 AM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
I said that as far as I knew the Venezuela aid was not given under the war clause.

Sorry, I misunderstood you then.

So it seems kinda strange that I should be asked to make the case that it was.

What I was asking you to do is make the case that foreign aid (outside of a wartime situation) is authorized by the Constitution at all, without reverting to the argument that since the Founders did it, it must have been constitutional.

46 posted on 04/26/2004 2:50:39 PM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
"without reverting to the argument that since the Founders did it, it must have been constitutional. "

So their understanding of the Constitution is irrelevent to you too?

I confess I'm surprised you'd go that far.

47 posted on 04/26/2004 2:54:43 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Do I have to keep repeating myself to you? The first post of mine that you responded to on this thread (#32) addressed that point. Are you going to counteraddress my point, or do you intend to just keep going round and round in circles on this?
48 posted on 04/26/2004 2:58:51 PM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
"counteraddress my point"

Sure. If people can redefine the Constitution merely by saying the Founding Fathers were fallible men, then it means nothing at all.

If there is more to your "point" than the usual "living constitution" crap you haven't stated it.

If we've both agreed that the war power authorizes foreign aid- you have only implicitly accepted that, though i give you credit for going that far on this thread- we can address the constitutionality of wars like Washington's, Adams', and Jefferson's.

Though if you're merely going to assert that they were fallible men and therefore the Constittuion can mean whatever else you feel like instead...

Why bother?

49 posted on 04/26/2004 3:16:36 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: mrsmith
Though if you're merely going to assert that they were fallible men and therefore the Constittuion can mean whatever else you feel like instead...

No, not whatever I feel like having it mean, but what the text actually says, based on an honest reading thereof.

All I'm asking you to do is show in the text where and/or how it authorizes nonmilitary foreign aid.

50 posted on 04/26/2004 3:30:23 PM PDT by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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