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Kerry reaffirms rights to Receive Holy Communion Paterson, NJ Bishop Rodimer Agrees
The Record of Hackensack, aka The Bergen Record ^ | 04.24.04

Posted on 04/24/2004 10:58:04 PM PDT by Coleus

Kerry reaffirms rights

Saturday, April 24, 2004

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry delivered an unabashed defense of abortion rights on Friday, just hours after a top Vatican cardinal said that priests must deny Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights.

Several other Catholic politicians said they, too, had no intention of altering the way they practice their religion or their politics.

With hundreds of Catholic politicians in the United States supporting abortion rights, the trans-Atlantic counterpoint was only the latest sign that the issue promises to be a recurrent one on the U.S. campaign trail this year.

"I believe that in the year 2004, we deserve a president who understands that a stronger America is where women's rights are just that: Rights, not political weapons to be used by politicians of this nation," Kerry declared at a rally with leaders of pro-choice groups mobilizing in Washington for a big march set for Sunday. "We are going to have a change in leadership in this country to protect the right of choice."

Speaking earlier from Vatican City, Cardinal Francis Arinze stopped short of saying whether it was right for Kerry to receive Communion but said a Catholic politician who supports abortion rights "is not fit" to receive the Eucharist. U.S. bishops have discretion in deciding who should receive Communion, but the cardinal's comments could put more pressure on them to sanction Catholic politicians whose positions are at odds with church teachings.

Kerry said he personally opposes abortion but supports a woman's right to choose. He did not directly respond to Arinze's comments, but campaign spokesman David Wade said Kerry believes the separation of church and state "helped make religious affiliation a non-issue in American politics."

Paterson Bishop Frank Rodimer said that he would give Kerry communion. While Rodimer remains adamant that abortion must be publicly condemned, he does not see a benefit in denying communion to a Catholic politician. "I would not make that the occasion for teaching; it is not a teaching moment," Rodimer said.

Rodimer said the proper time to have a conversation with a Catholic candidate about abortion or other spiritual matters is before Mass, not during the distribution of communion.

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt countered that Kerry's views on abortion were "outside the mainstream" and said the president "supports a culture of life."

Judie Brown, president of the anti-abortion American Life League, said it was perfectly appropriate for voters to consider a candidate's religion and the way he or she practices it in deciding how to vote. She said the group is keeping tabs on 500 Catholic politicians at the state and national level who support abortion rights.

"If you are elected to public office as a Catholic, then your fellow Catholics expect you to be Catholic," she said, calling it "hypocrisy" for Kerry to say he is personally opposed to abortion while supporting wider access to the procedure.

But Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, USA, said statements such as Arinze's "debase the political campaign" and would only isolate the church from its U.S. members, most of whom she said support abortion rights.

"Every time Catholic church leaders have attacked Catholic politicians for their view on abortion, the Catholic politicians have become more popular and the church has become more marginalized," she said. "It's a very foolish strategy relative to political influence."

She added: "Do they really want to tell Senators (Edward) Kennedy, (Barbara) Mikulski, (Patrick) Leahy and 70 other members of the U.S. Congress that they can't receive Communion? Because they can't just tell this to Senator Kerry."

Sen. Edward Kennedy, the Massachusetts Democrat whose brother was the nation's first Catholic president, stressed that Arinze was speaking for himself, not the pope, and said he did not expect to be denied Communion despite supporting abortion rights.

"I'm a very strong believer in the separation of church and state, as President Kennedy spoke to, and I continue to follow my own beliefs and will continue to serve the people of Massachusetts," he said.

Among American Catholics, 56 percent of non-Hispanic Catholics and 59 percent of Hispanic Catholics oppose making it harder for a woman to get an abortion, according to the Pew Research Center. Support for additional restrictions increases among Catholics who attend church at least once a week, with 50 percent of non-Hispanic Catholics favoring further restrictions and 43 percent of Hispanic Catholics.

Rep. Nick Lampson, D-Texas, was criticized by Republicans recently for keeping track of the votes of Catholic members of Congress and whether they are in keeping with church doctrine. He said the vote tallies grew out of meetings by a group of lawmakers exploring their own beliefs, "knowing many of us want to bring as much of our faith as we can to our action in Congress."

"We are trying to live the teachings of our church and we try to bring that to work," he said. At the same time, he added, Catholic congressional members struggle with adhering to their faith while representing people of many religions.

"I am not here to represent the Catholic church," he said.

Last week, Kerry met privately with Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the Washington archbishop heading a task force examining whether there should be church sanctions for Catholic politicians who vote and support positions at odds with church teachings.

Bishop Raymond Burke, the archbishop of St. Louis, has said he would refuse to give Kerry Communion.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: abortionlist; catholiclist; catholicpoliticians; disrespect; holycommunion; kennedy; kerry; proaborts; prolife; rodimer
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1 posted on 04/24/2004 10:58:05 PM PDT by Coleus
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...
`
2 posted on 04/24/2004 10:59:42 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Coleus
Here we go! A new precedent!
3 posted on 04/24/2004 11:03:12 PM PDT by spyone
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McGreevey: Church wrong to dictate to Catholic politicians

Excommunicate Kerry Website        Catholics Against Kerry

Sign Petition: To  Excommunicate Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians       Herod's Heroes, Sign Petition

A Primer on Canon 915 Can. 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion

Canon Law and Abortion  The Gospel of Life--Evangelium Vitae

Kerry, Candidate and Catholic, Creates Uneasiness for Church

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DOCTRINAL NOTE on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

Living the Gospel of Life:A Challenge to American Catholics
A Statement by the Catholic Bishops of the United States

Faithful Citizenship:Civic Responsibility for a New Millennium

Teresa on the Stump, Teresa Heinz Kerry, from Mozambique, PRO-ABORTION Catholic, UN Employee, etc.

Teresa Heinz Kerry, Drummond Pike and the Communist TIDES FOUNDATION

The Bible and homosexuality [Kerry thinks the bible is for homosexuality]

Kerry’s Dirty Deeds (How, pray tell, do they comport with religious belief

Vatican Worries About Kerry  John Kerry and Unborn Victims

Catholic Pro-Abortion, Pro-Homosexual

Catholic and 100% Pro Abortion

Catholics Kerry and Kennedy have a 100% Pro-homosexual Record with the Human Rights Campaign! Page 10,11

4 posted on 04/24/2004 11:05:05 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Coleus
These gutless priests are disgusting. I don't remember any nuanced, flip-flopping over moral issues when I was in school. Furthermore, setting a "bad example" was a big deal. Times have certainly changed.
6 posted on 04/24/2004 11:06:53 PM PDT by lainde (Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
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To: Michaelrowtheboatashore
Adios psycho!
7 posted on 04/24/2004 11:11:07 PM PDT by spyone
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To: Coleus
Several other Catholic politicians said they, too, had no intention of altering the way they practice their religion or their politics.

With hundreds of Catholic politicians in the United States supporting abortion rights, the trans-Atlantic counterpoint was only the latest sign that the issue promises to be a recurrent one on the U.S. campaign trail this year.

I think these guys may be wandering into quicksand. We live in dangerous times, and I sense the voters are in no mood for self-serving BS from those who would lead us.

8 posted on 04/24/2004 11:13:38 PM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: Coleus
"Paterson Bishop Frank Rodimer said that he would give Kerry communion. While Rodimer remains adamant that abortion must be publicly condemned, he does not see a benefit in denying communion to a Catholic politician. "I would not make that the occasion for teaching; it is not a teaching moment," Rodimer said."

What in the hell is he talking about? Really. Does this sound ANYTHING like Catholic teaching? Well given this and similar stupid comments from other bishops I am lead to believe that we can expect nothing good to come of the task force that will be advising the bishops how to deal with pro-choice politicians.

The Catholic Church in American is OVER. The bishops are caving on abortion, indirectly they are caving.

9 posted on 04/24/2004 11:20:08 PM PDT by DestroytheDemocrats
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To: Coleus
perty much what I was expectin'

If the Pope himself flew to DC and did a fire and brimstone on this, w/ kerry, kennedy, & co. in the front pew I don't think they would care.

They are agents of Satan and should be excommunicated.

Archbishop Rummel excommunicated Louisiana politicians in the 60's over racism. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/905691/posts

For crying out loud how much worse is state sanctioned genocide.
10 posted on 04/24/2004 11:24:31 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (The Missing Key of the Pro-Life Movement is at www.CpForLife.org)
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To: Coleus
Kerry believes the separation of church and state "helped make religious affiliation a non-issue in American politics."

Being told he can't accept communion has nothing to do with church and state. It's purely a church issue. The church chooses not to give the Eucharist to someone who publicly refuses to follow church teachings.

During the 1960's the church refused to provide Eucharist to segregationists in Louisiana. Someone should ask Kerry if that was an improper action by church officials.

11 posted on 04/24/2004 11:26:59 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: Numbers Guy
no...somebody should ask the church, what has changed?
12 posted on 04/24/2004 11:28:45 PM PDT by spyone
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To: Coleus; All
From open email I recieved:

Dear Friends,

Now that the Vatican has made it clear, will bishop O'Malley
finally become a good shepherd and issue an edict that if
John Kerry presents himself for Holy Communion, he MUST
be refused?

If Bishop O'Malley allows Holy Communion knowingly to a
person in the state of mortal sin, both he and John Kerry are guilty of direct material cooperation in the sinful act.

Bishop O'Malley, would be especially guilty since the person receiving Communion would not be able to commit the sin of sacrilege without his direct help.

My view is that Bishop O'Malley and the rest of the American bishops with the exception of Archbishop Burke of St. Louis and Bishop Bruskewitz of Lincoln Nebraska will continue ignoring Canon Law and be silent on this issue.until after the elections in November.

They know that without the Catholic vote, child killing Kerry is dead meat and it would be the death knell of the Democratic Party.The Catholic pro-abortion politicians, who by the way, run the "Party of Death" have sold their souls to the devil for political gain and power.

We shall see if the bishops have also sold their souls now that the Vatican had to interpret Canon Law for them.

Would you believe that the American bishops had to call for a meeting to determine what to do with pro-abortion Catholic politicians. The even said they may not reach a conclusion until after the elections

Why, when it is in black and white in Canon Law 915, which a ten year old would have no problem understanding?
After awhile this affinity the bishops have with the "Party of Death" becomes sickening.

For once, I hope and pray the bishops put the lives of children first and politics last. Is this really asking too much from them when the Catholic pro-abortion politicians really should be excommunicated for their heresy?


Frank Joseph MD

DFjosephMD@aol.com
www.hometown.aol.com/dfjoseph/abortion.html



64 posted on 04/24/2004 4:15:44 PM CDT by cpforlife.org (The Missing Key of the Pro-Life Movement is at www.CpForLife.org)
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13 posted on 04/24/2004 11:31:42 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (The Missing Key of the Pro-Life Movement is at www.CpForLife.org)
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To: cpforlife.org
Archbishop Rummel excommunicated Louisiana politicians in the 60's over racism

Beat me to it. But it's an excellent point to raise with the liberal so-called Catholics these days.

14 posted on 04/24/2004 11:31:46 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: Coleus
I'll tell you what offends me. Those sanctomonious, finger-in-the-air poses Kerry makes all the time that are reproduced in the press.

Right hand raised, finger pointing upward, eyes looking upward... Like he's some sort of saint himself. He's got all his Clinton moves down.
15 posted on 04/24/2004 11:34:00 PM PDT by BradyLS (DO NOT FEED THE BEARS!)
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To: spyone
Nothing has changed. I go to a catholic high school in California and the penalties for students who advocate any sort of abortion or "brag" about having one are severe. At the same time, historically American Catholics apparently have been more liberal in their interpretations of church doctrine. This pushes close to heresy.
They will all burn anyways.
At the same time, if the Vatican were to issue excommunications for John Kerry and his ilk, it would be massive disruption to catholic democrats, if any exist, while strengthening the conservatives. This inaction is damaging.
16 posted on 04/24/2004 11:35:44 PM PDT by Sareln
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To: spyone; All
The Paulist Center is where he took Communion - this is a short history of the Center.

The Paulist Center attracts Catholics uncomfortable with some of the Vatican's orthodox teachings or who otherwise feel alienated from the Roman Catholic Church.

The congregation includes gay couples, whose adopted children are baptized there, unlike in some other Boston parishes. In November, its leaders refused to read aloud during Mass from a letter opposing gay marriage, as requested by the Massachusetts bishops.

The congregation is not geographical, but ideological, drawing people from as far as away as New Hampshire, said Drew Deskur, the center's music director and a parishioner for 25 years.

"It's not St. Around-the-Corner," Deskur said. "It's an intentional community that draws people from all over Boston. It tries to make sure that everyone feels welcome and that everyone participates in the liturgy."

The Archdiocese of Boston "does not hold to the practice of publicly refusing Communion to anyone," said archdiocese spokesman Rev. Christopher Coyne. He said it was up to the individual to decide whether to receive Communion.

In the days before Kerry attended Easter Mass at the Paulist Center, staff members received threatening phone calls and e-mails from Catholics who believed the senator should be denied Communion.

Coyne said he also received many letters and angry calls from concerned Catholics about Kerry's ability to take Communion. He said he contacted the Paulist Center ahead of time to ensure there would be no problem when the senator received the Eucharist.

The chapel celebrates Mass and can conduct every sacrament except marriage.

The center does not resemble a traditional church, but is housed among a row of brownstones. A band plays during worship, and the lyrics are projected onto the wall above the pulpit so parishioners can sing along.

Kerry joined in the singing from his pew near the back Saturday night. His wife was out of town, so he attended alone with several reporters and staff in tow.

Founded in 1970, the church is located within the Archdiocese of Boston and operates with the permission of the bishop. The center, however, is financially independent and has a history of reaching out to marginalized Catholics.

The Paulist Center began a support group for divorced Catholics that has since been replicated in churches across the country. The center also hosts a group for bisexual, gay and lesbian Catholics, as well as a program for lapsed Catholics who are considering a return to the flock.

The center helped launch the Walk for Hunger, a now annual fund-raiser for soup kitchens across the region, and has held funeral Masses for homeless people who die without family or loved ones.


17 posted on 04/24/2004 11:37:32 PM PDT by dixie sass (Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, contentment - claws are sharp and ready for use!)
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To: dixie sass
He called ahead to make sure there wouldn't be any problems with him taking Communion?!? Jeeze, evidence the whole thing was set up...
18 posted on 04/24/2004 11:42:28 PM PDT by Sareln
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To: cpforlife.org
Mel Gibson bad..John Kerry good.
19 posted on 04/24/2004 11:55:13 PM PDT by spyone
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To: Sareln
You would think these politicians were Nazi's they way the bishops cringe at the thought of doing anything to tick them off. The only people most bishops have the courage to stand up to is those Catholics who just want orthodox liturgies, orthodox catechesis and their little boys left unmolested.
20 posted on 04/24/2004 11:57:34 PM PDT by DestroytheDemocrats
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To: Coleus
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
21 posted on 04/24/2004 11:59:13 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Coleus
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)
22 posted on 04/24/2004 11:59:22 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
bttt
23 posted on 04/25/2004 12:06:34 AM PDT by kcvl
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To: DestroytheDemocrats
"....given this and similar stupid comments from other bishops I am lead to believe that we can expect nothing good to come of the task force that will be advising the bishops how to deal with pro-choice politicians.

The Catholic Church in American is OVER. The bishops are caving on abortion, indirectly they are caving.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. -- Matthew 24:11-14

24 posted on 04/25/2004 12:09:39 AM PDT by Robert Drobot (God, family, country. All else is meaningless.)
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To: Coleus; All
Why Don't Catholic Politicians Practice What the Catholic Church Preaches?

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_8797.shtml

Commentary by Judie Brown
April 19, 2004


Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

- 1 Corinthians 11:29



This column is about pro-abortion Catholics - and isn't that just the crème de la crème of the oxymoron world? Yes, there's one pro-abortion Catholic who's getting a lot of attention, and yes, he's running for president. I'll get to him in a minute. But he's not alone. And he himself is not the problem, merely a sign of a much deeper illness.



So what is the big deal about pro-abortion political figures receiving Communion in the Catholic Church? It's a "big deal" because of what Holy Communion is to the Catholic Church. And that's why I led off with St. Paul, who knew a few things about how Christ wanted us mortals to practice our faith. The consecrated bread and wine does not "symbolize" Christ. It is Christ.



Okay, I can almost see the eyes rolling on that one: "There you Catholics go again." And, if we are to believe the polls, a lot of Catholic eyes are rolling in unison with their non-Catholic brethren. But I'm not making any of this up. Holy Communion is Jesus Christ. It's all in the Bible, which all good Christians freely acknowledge is the Word of God.



"But I have to suspend all logic to think that a pressed wafer of wheat and a cup of fermented grape juice is in fact Jesus Christ." Yup. You sure do. It's called "faith." And either you've got it, or you don't. And if you don't, please refer back to the quote from St. Paul at the top of the page.



It is especially puzzling that those who take the Bible as literal fact cannot accept the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Other things in the Bible also require a full-tilt suspension of logic, yet "Bible believing" Christians accept them without flinching.



God created the whole universe in seven days? Of course. It's in the Bible.



Jericho's walls couldn't stand up to a hot tune on the trumpet? Ditto. God said so.



Methuselah lived to the extremely ripe old age of 969? No doubt. It's in there.



Yet we are told that when Christ said, "This is my body," he was just being poetic. Never mind that the quote shows up in the gospels and in Paul's letters. Nope. That Jesus always spoke in riddles, didn't he? And this was just the pinnacle of his storytelling acumen.



Oh yeah? Don't think so.



Check out the "bread of life" discourse in Chapter 6 of John's gospel. Jesus goes on at length about the need to eat his body and drink his blood. People turned away from him because it seemed so … odd. But the disciples knew it was the real deal, and they stayed.



Okay. So much for the detour into basic theology. Today, far too many Catholics seem to have lost touch with that basic teaching. And the lost sheep include far too many Catholics in public office who think they can vote pro-abortion during the week and sashay shamelessly up to the altar on Sunday.



Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is the current poster boy of this pro-abortion Catholic flock. One week, he rolls into Mass - 10 minutes late - with a noisy entourage, then makes a quick trip to the altar for Holy Communion, then bounces out to hit the ski slopes. The next week, he's photographed receiving communion at a non-Catholic church. That's also a no-no. But Sen. Kerry is not alone.



Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois is getting a fair amount of attention in his home state. Catholics in Springfield picketed his church there. So he sought out a friendlier church in Chicago (read: one where the tenets of the faith are subject to negotiation) where his die-hard pro-abortion stance seems irrelevant. A new group is now organizing to picket that church. Maybe he's not getting the truth inside the building, but he's sure going to get an earful on the way in and out.



Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas vetoed a bill that would have imposed minimal health and medical standards on abortion clinics in her state. She is Catholic, and pro-abortion. The legislature is again contemplating a bill that would enact such requirements. The governor is promising a repeat veto performance if the representatives of the people of Kansas dare approve what is considered a pro-life measure.



Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan is also a pro-abortion Catholic who has made questionable use of the veto pen. A local group has a web site that follows the ongoing inconsistencies that unavoidably dog someone who proclaims both the Catholic faith and the so-called right to choose abortion. Granholm's case is particularly troublesome, since she has served as a Eucharistic minister. That's right. This woman, who is pro-abortion, has stood before her fellow parishioners, presented the Holy Eucharist to them and announced, "The Body of Christ."



Hello? Does she really believe it? Does Durban? Sebelius? Kerry? Does every Catholic priest and bishop really believe it? Aha! That's the real question. In the pro-life movement, it is often said, "If you really believe abortion is murder, then act like it." A similar sentiment should be expressed to Catholic priests and bishops who are lukewarm about defending the Church's teaching about Holy Communion: "If you really believe the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, then act like it!"



We are told, for instance, that Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston has said pro-abortion Catholics should not receive Communion. Yet Sen. Kerry a, pro-abortion Catholic continues to do so. Granted, Archbishop O'Malley is still the new guy in town, but with high-profile pro-abortion Catholics such as John Kerry and Ted Kennedy in his flock, he surely knows that their behavior merits his extremely vigilant scrutiny.



We are told that Cardinal Francis George of Chicago has met privately with Dick Durbin, hopefully for some remedial catechism instruction on the Church's teachings on the sanctity of human life. That's well and good, but how long will it take before something is said publicly to this man, and the countless others, who very publicly promote legal abortion and very publicly receive Holy Communion?



That priests and bishops are within bounds in withholding Communion from such persons is beyond question. It's in the rules: Canon Law, in this case. Canon 915 says those "who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to communion." Abortion, the Church says, is gravely evil, adding that "formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense."



Pro-abortion Catholic politicians are fond of saying they "personally oppose" abortion, but are unwilling to stand in the way of others who seek them. Is that formal cooperation? Well, voting to expend tax dollars on abortion and abortion-related matters certainly seems to qualify.



Abortion is, after all, a matter of life and death. Yet the Gallup organization tells us it "consistently ranks among the least important issues to the electorate in choosing a president." Americans have become indifferent. American Catholics, too, have become indifferent. Is it because too many priests and bishops, through their silence, have allowed this indifference to fester?



"I am the bread of life," said Christ. The apostles knew it was the real deal, and they stayed. Do the apostles' modern day successors share that conviction? Or have they, as did many of Jesus' fair-weather followers, simply drifted away?



It's certainly a question to ponder at this time of year, when Christians commemorate the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

Judie Brown is the president of American Life League


25 posted on 04/25/2004 12:10:26 AM PDT by cpforlife.org (The Missing Key of the Pro-Life Movement is at www.CpForLife.org)
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To: Sareln
Photo op! Picture that was with the article that I saw was of him taking Communion.
26 posted on 04/25/2004 12:19:47 AM PDT by dixie sass (Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, contentment - claws are sharp and ready for use!)
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To: cpforlife.org
If the Pope himself flew to DC and did a fire and brimstone on this, w/ kerry, kennedy, & co. in the front pew I don't think they would care.

You are soooo right! The only thing that brings me some peace it that one day they will face God for final judgement. What do you suppose God will say to these people who have killed so many of his precious little angels?

27 posted on 04/25/2004 12:52:08 AM PDT by AnimalLover
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To: spyone
It's just that, how can anybody vote for someone who does not follow his own beliefs? And if you don't believe the doctrine of your religion, why associate yourself with that religion? He is showing his true colors on this issue, pure and simple, he is a flip-flopping hypocrite, just like all the rest mentions in this article.
28 posted on 04/25/2004 1:40:24 AM PDT by garylmoore (The word "gay" means to be happy not abnormal!)
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To: Coleus
I am sure the Almighty on Judgment Day is going to be hysterical about that fact that JK took communion!
29 posted on 04/25/2004 2:54:41 AM PDT by tkathy (nihilism: absolute destructiveness toward the world at large and oneself)
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To: tkathy

No, the Almighty will not be hysterical on Judgement Day. He will simply pronounce judgement on all who did not follow His Word in their lives. (Remember that Jesus is called "The Word made flesh" which shows just how serious God is about what He has told us.) That judgement will be damnation in the fires of hell for all eternity. There will be no appeal, no "Supreme Court" ruling to weasel around His Law. That's what the cited passage means when it says that those who take Holy Communion unworthily take damnation to themselves. This might not be the prevailing cozy view of God, the blind grandfather, who can be talked into accepting your favorite sin, but it's the truth as revealed in the Bible.
30 posted on 04/25/2004 3:12:12 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: Coleus
several catholic politicians
31 posted on 04/25/2004 3:16:38 AM PDT by RIGHT IN LAS VEGAS
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To: lainde
>> I don't remember any nuanced, flip-flopping over moral issues when I was in school. Furthermore, setting a "bad example" was a big deal. Times have certainly changed.

You must be as old as I am. I remember when setting a good example was a major virtue. Then letting it all hang out was a major virtue. Then multicultural ethical tolerance and PC-ness...

Wake me when the pendulum swings back! :(

32 posted on 04/25/2004 4:10:32 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: cpforlife.org
It is especially puzzling that those who take the Bible as literal fact cannot accept the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

I think mostly they don't accept apostolic succession.

33 posted on 04/25/2004 4:19:49 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Now you go feed those hogs before they worry themselves into anemia!)
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To: Jim Noble
Well, apparently Kerry doesn't either.

I won't condemn him. He lives and dies with his own actions. I have to think God's hand is here. We don't often see the workings of the Almighty until the result is obvious, but the Eternal Father has hardened men's hearts throughout history for a specific purpose known only to Him.

Pray for Kerry and the Bishops because they are the ones being tried and their failure could well result in disaster for the Church and this country.
34 posted on 04/25/2004 5:06:23 AM PDT by OpusatFR (John Kerry - Cheezewhiz for the mind - marshmallow mush for the masses)
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To: Coleus; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, USA, said statements such as Arinze's "debase the political campaign" and would only isolate the church from its U.S. members, most of whom she said support abortion rights.

Kissling Spins Canon Law  
(from Catalyst, May 2003)

 
Catholics For a Free Choice (CFFC) recently released a new pamphlet, titled, “Catholics and Abortion: Notes on Canon Law.” Its aim is to counter “finger-pointing” and “misinformation.” No one who is familiar with Frances Kissling’s group should be surprised that the only techniques used in the pamphlet are just that—finger-pointing and misinformation. 

The introduction whines, “Everyone is an expert, claiming that prochoice Catholics are ‘heretics’ or have been ‘excommunicated’ because they have had an abortion or have supported legal abortion.” And here’s some misinformation: CFFC claims, “We respect the church’s law.” 

The pamphlet focuses on two relevant passages in the 1983 Code of Canon Law—the one prescribing automatic excommunication for those who have a completed abortion (canon 1398), and the passage that stipulates automatic excommunication for “accomplices” without whose help the grave sin could not have been committed (canon 1329 §2). 

In the next ten or so pages, the pamphlet’s author, Sara Morello, wrangles word-by-word with the passages from Canon Law, attempting to show that mitigating factors can lessen the likelihood that someone who has had an abortion actually incurs excommunication. But any Catholic already knows that there are conditions to be met (grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent) before any sin incurs its full penalty. (Incidentally, the word “sin” appears nowhere in the leaflet.)

In a huge leap of logic, the brochure tells us, “In cases where it is difficult to argue that the primary actor incurs a penalty, it would also be very difficult to justify punishing accomplices.” In other words, since we cannot say for sure whether the woman undergoing an abortion meets the requirements under Canon Law for responsibility for her actions, then we cannot even begin to judge the actions of accomplices, such as Kissling. Thus “the routine activity of hospital administrators, directors of abortion clinics and prochoice politicians does not make them eligible for punishment under this canon.”

One doesn’t have to have a degree in Canon Law to see this is nonsense. Canon 1329 states that anyone who aided in the commission of an offense such that it would not have been committed without their help suffers the penalty attached to that offense. For example: an accomplice to a murder is subject to the same penalty that the actual murderer is, regardless of any mitigating factors operating on the murderer. If the murderer is in a blind rage and acts in the heat of the moment, he may be less culpable; but a man who calmly gives him a knife and leads him to his victim enjoys no such advantages. Each individual is subject to penalties based on his own mental state and actions. 

Frances Kissling and other facilitators of abortion are probably not under the emotional pressure of those with unplanned pregnancies. And CFFC is fully aware of the Church’s actual teaching; they produced this tract on Canon Law, didn’t they? And it even grudgingly acknowledges, “getting an abortion is against the church’s law.” 

In other words, Frances Kissling and her ilk have no excuse. And whether or not you believe that she has acted directly as an “accomplice” through her work with CFFC and the pro-abortion lobby, there remains the fact that she operated one of the first legal abortion clinics in New York, and ran illegal ones in Mexico and Rome; all of which she still defends. If that’s not direct complicity, then the law is meaningless. 

It’s not our place to declare people excommunicated, but we will point out their disingenuous reasoning. Kissling’s motive in producing the tract is transparent: she hopes to silence her opposition, who place her and her organization outside the Church. But Canon Law is clear on one matter, and the American bishops agree: Catholics For a Free Choice is anything but Catholic. And no glossy pamphlet that butchers Canon Law will convince us otherwise.
 

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


35 posted on 04/25/2004 5:25:00 AM PDT by NYer (O Promise of God from age to age. O Flower of the Gospel!)
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To: Coleus
Liberals rightly condemn the Catholic bishops of Nazi Germany for their refusal to stand up to the many leaders of their day who continued to receive the sacraments even as they plotted the destruction of millions of their fellow citizens. Likewise, they applaud the Church for standing up to the segregationists in Lousiana. The only reason they whine about "teachable moments" now is that they really support the destruction of unborn children.
36 posted on 04/25/2004 5:28:41 AM PDT by madprof98
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To: Coleus
proper time to have a conversation with a Catholic candidate about abortion or other spiritual matters is before Mass,

No. The proper thing is to excommunicate the reprobates, ya dope!

37 posted on 04/25/2004 5:28:53 AM PDT by don-o (Stop Freeploading. Do the right thing and sign up for a monthly donation.)
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To: Coleus
Among American Catholics, 56 percent of non-Hispanic Catholics and 59 percent of Hispanic Catholics oppose making it harder for a woman to get an abortion,

Who give a flip? The Church is not, nor has ever been a democracy.

Fer crying out loud, AmBishops!

Testicles are useful for other than procreation.

Grow a pair!


38 posted on 04/25/2004 5:32:31 AM PDT by don-o (Stop Freeploading. Do the right thing and sign up for a monthly donation.)
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To: OpusatFR
I have to agree with you - seems like God is pushing this issue out into the open. It gives me hope that we might win this for him someday.
39 posted on 04/25/2004 5:55:58 AM PDT by no more apples (God Bless our troops)
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To: Coleus
As far as I'm concerned, a bishop that would say such a thing is not fit to be a diocesan bishop. He should be reassigned.
40 posted on 04/25/2004 6:44:07 AM PDT by B Knotts (Just another medieval Catholic)
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To: cpforlife.org
Bishop O'Malley, would be especially guilty since the person receiving Communion would not be able to commit the sin of sacrilege without his direct help.

Then what does he do when the Paulist Center gives Kerry communion anyway? Which they will. With full press coverage.

I think O'Malley's in a tough spot (several, actually, and none of his own making). Maybe he can get the Paulists out of his diocese, but I don't know quite how he could work it, and he probably has lots to do trying to get the diocesan priests, who are under his direct authority to cooperate here. I don't see any grounds for the civil authorities to get involved in any attempt of O'Malley's to physically remove the Paulists.

41 posted on 04/25/2004 6:47:56 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Coleus
"I would not make that the occasion for teaching; it is not a teaching moment,"

. . .how about this Bishop just accepting that it is a 'moral moment' that defines and honors the Churches teachings; otherwise; what is the point of anyone not availing themselves?

Liberals, like everywhere else in our culture, continue to debase the 'good' by their escape in a moral relativism.

John Kerry IS a Catholic - just depends on the meaning of 'is'. . .and maybe by now; the meaning of 'Catholic'. . .

42 posted on 04/25/2004 6:49:45 AM PDT by cricket (Terrorists are weapons of mass destruction. . .)
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To: Coleus
a bump and a correction. . .'Church's'. . .
43 posted on 04/25/2004 6:51:45 AM PDT by cricket (Terrorists are weapons of mass destruction. . .)
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To: Coleus
"Kerry said he personally opposes abortion but supports a woman's right to choose."

That is about as vacuous as saying "Hey, I personally oppose slavery but I support your right to own one."

44 posted on 04/25/2004 7:01:08 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: NYer
The accomplice in wholesale abortion is his own Principle Agent guilty under Canon 1329.2. There is no way out for him.
45 posted on 04/25/2004 7:39:41 AM PDT by m4629
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To: Coleus
Unfortunately Rodimer is my bishop. Bishop as one of your flock, if you're reading this please
SHUT THE HELL UP!!!
46 posted on 04/25/2004 7:58:11 AM PDT by Michael_S
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To: Coleus
Bishop Frank J. Rodimer acknowledged this week that he waited too long to talk about the issue of child abuse by priests, and he acknowledged his own mistakes. He has spent the last month visiting going to parishes where James T. Hanley, an accused child molester, had worked as a priest. Rodimer, bishop of the Paterson Diocese since 1978, confronted angry people at those meetings. One man asked him to resign. Others asked him pointed questions about why he allowed Hanley to continue working as a priest for years after he learned knew about allegations of child abuse.
47 posted on 04/25/2004 8:08:34 AM PDT by John Thornton
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To: Numbers Guy
During the 1960's the church refused to provide Eucharist to segregationists in Louisiana. Someone should ask Kerry if that was an improper action by church officials.

Excellent point. Rodimer is a fool. He will occupy a lower circle of hell than Kerry, but they will be in hailing distance of each other.

Barring, of course, Rodimer and KErry getting knocked off their horses on the way to Damascus.

48 posted on 04/25/2004 8:18:30 AM PDT by gemoftheocean (geez, how come this seems so straight-forward and logical to me......)
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To: 2nd amendment mama; A2J; Agitate; Alouette; Annie03; aposiopetic; attagirl; axel f; Balto_Boy; ...
While he's at it, why doesn't he just reaffirm his "right" as a good Catholic to worship Satan, steal stuff he wants, screw around on his wife and torture puppies?

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

49 posted on 04/25/2004 8:51:01 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Dwight Eisenhower: "I will go to Korea." John F. Kerry: "I will go to Paris.")
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To: spyone; et al
Rodimer can use a little dose of freeperdom....

shepherd@patersondiocese.org

This is his email address according to that diocese's newspaper.

Here is a copy of what I just sent to that address:

You said that in your diocese you would not refuse Kerry communion. Then for all your talk in your editorial about the "Risen Christ" you show by your actions you really don't believe much. Anyone who would feed Holy Communion to a pig and apostate like Kerry shows by his actions he doesn't respect the "Risen Christ."

You said refusing someone communion in church was not an opportunity to "Teach." Well, you've "taught" _PRACTISING_ Catholics in the pews that pro-abortion politicians can blackmail the church into bowing down to apostates. You've given us cause to wonder if you are hiding further scandals that they can blackmail you with. Are you a practising homosexual or something that you are in fear of Kerry and his ilk? You act like it.

What's it going to take for you spineless bishops, the alleged shepherds of the flock for you to get the message that we want bishops with true convictions and not lip service to the REAL faithful? Do we all need to start writing checks to our parishes for the amount of FIVE CENTS with a note in the memo line that the donation will NOT increase until we get bishops who start acting like bishops?

DO we need to forward copies of our checks to the Papal Nuncio in Washington, and to the Vatican itself until you stop acting like butt-buddies of the pro-abortion politicians? Will THAT get your attention? Do you need your own faculties suspended? What's it going to take?

50 posted on 04/25/2004 9:03:42 AM PDT by gemoftheocean (geez, how come this seems so straight-forward and logical to me......)
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