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DUBYA'S WING MEN (in case you missed it, he volunteered for Vietnam)
National Review Online ^ | 2-19-04 | Jed Babbin

Posted on 04/27/2004 9:45:22 AM PDT by doug from upland

February 19, 2004, 8:55 a.m.
Dubya’s Wing Men
The lessons of Vietnam were different for Bush and Kerry.

Why are the president's supporters so defensive whenever the President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard comes up? Does the fact that John Kerry fought in Vietnam, and George Bush didn't, make Kerry a better wartime leader?

Some of the hyper-libs are saying that Bush's service in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron was the equivalent of draft dodging. They're also saying — and the too willing media are buying — the idea that Senator Kerry's combat experience would have to make him a better wartime president than Bush. Both points are false. The real issue is what did each of them learn in the Vietnam days, and how those lessons shape their present-day thinking.

First, let's dispense with the idea that Bush was some sort of chicken hawk, hiding in the National Guard while others risked their lives. According to four of the pilots who flew with him, then-Lieutenant George W. Bush was a better-than-average pilot who did a dangerous job very well.

If all you know about flying fighters was learned watching Tom Cruise in Top Gun, you can be forgiven for thinking it's nothing but reckless fun, hard drinking, and a steady stream of beautiful girls. (That's only what the jet jocks want you to believe). The reality is that it's a hazardous business that will kill you — long before any enemy gets the chance to — if you aren't up to the job. My college roommate, retired Air Force Colonel Ed Atkins, flew fighters for 20 years. Ed told me, "Anybody who thinks that flying fighters is not exhausting physically, demanding intellectually, and tough emotionally just has no clue about the complexity of air combat." He added, "I've flown check rides as everything from a second lieutenant to a colonel. The [flight examiner] doesn't give a damn if your dad was George H.W. Bush, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Jesus or Moses. The only question is, 'can you hack the mission?'" And it's harder to do in some aircraft than others. Dubya had the right stuff.

Retired Col. Bill Campenni was one of President Bush's squadron mates. The Texas ANG had the F-102, and probably wished it didn't. According to Campenni, "The F-102 was underpowered and, unlike modern fighters, had a split front view through the canopy. It literally had a bar down the center, so you'd have one eye on each side of the bar. It also had a built in altimeter error of up to 500 feet, which made it interesting when you were at 500 feet out over the ocean at night." Flying and training in the '102 was a dangerous job that required a lot of smarts and flying skill.

Bob Harmon is another of Bush's former squadron mates. At the time, Harmon was an instructor pilot. He remembers Bush as a "young, affable guy" and an above-average pilot, very good for his level of experience. "We flew together two or three times a month." It was dangerous duty. Harmon said that a couple of pilots were killed in F-102 accidents while Bush was there.

The first American jet fighters to be deployed to Vietnam were F-102s of the 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadron. When Lt. Bush signed up for fighters and joined the 111th FIS, he stood ready to deploy to Vietnam, as did every other Air National Guard pilot. In fact, he tried to volunteer for Vietnam.

Of the four pilots I spoke to who flew with Bush in the Texas days, Fred Bradley knew him best. They had met before going off to the year-long ordeal of pilot school, and entered the 111th at about the same time. Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn't prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called "Palace Alert." "There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley." All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn't remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam. Joe Glavin, another member of Dubya's squadron said, "There were always a core of the guys who were the "in guys" and [Bush] was in the middle of it...George's difference was that we all knew that his daddy was rich and that he was smarter than the rest of us." Smarter? "I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from." Glavin explained that because their squadron was an active duty squadron, they always had two aircraft — armed and fueled — standing on the taxiway on what is called "plus five" alert. From the time the horn blows, until the time the aircraft was wheels-up on takeoff had to be five minutes or less.

Glavin said, "When we had to sit alerts, there were two pilots, and two crew chiefs that sat out in the alert barn. George was like everybody else, except while George was over in a corner reading somebody's autobiography, the rest of us were watching Hee Haw."

Glavin remembers Bush as a pilot who had learned good judgment, not a Hollywood hot dog. He told me of one night when the two were on alert and were scrambled to run a practice intercept over the Gulf of Mexico. Bush went out long and high, and turned back at supersonic speed. Glavin also went supersonic and then his radio failed. At that point, the two F-102s were approaching each other at a combined speed of about 1,800 miles an hour. At 20 miles — about 45 seconds before the paths would cross — Bush broke off the intercept. "We went to debrief with the controller and the controller said to George, why'd you break off the intercept? George said something to the effect of '[here] we're coming at each other at 1,800 miles an hour and he doesn't have a radio and you expect me to just sit there?' He said, 'we're not doin' that.'"

When you fly fighters with any squadron, you're literally betting your life on your pals' flying skills, just as they are betting it all on yours. Bush's old squadron-mates have the same confidence in him now they had when they flew with him. Bradley said, "I've always thought he was an intelligent, likeable, level-headed person." According to Glavin, "George was a smart man, an excellent pilot, and I'd fly with him again tomorrow, and I will vote for him in November." Which is about as high as praise gets among the jet jocks.

The media — by focusing only on Kerry's Vietnam service and Bush's lack of combat time — is blowing a smokescreen to cover a far more important issue than who served where and when. In the 2004 election, we're not choosing someone to pick up a gun and go at the enemy himself. We're choosing someone who can lead the nation in time of war.

Kerry is a puzzle: once a warrior, now distrustful of his nation's power and position in the world. He had a soda-straw-wide view of a war that Americans still don't agree should have been fought. He came back from it to condemn the war and those who fought it even though some were still being beaten and tortured in North Vietnamese prison camps. He abandoned them for the company of Hanoi Jane to propel himself into politics. Cong. Sam Johnson, who was held prisoner by the North Vietnamese for seven years, was asked about the picture of Kerry sitting near Jane Fonda at an antiwar demonstration. He told the Washington Times, "Seeing this picture of Kerry with her at antiwar demonstrations in the United States just makes me want to throw up." There is no such revulsion of George Bush among the best of judges: the Vietnam-era military, and those who now go in harm's way.

The distrust and doubt Kerry learned in Vietnam now colors everything he sees. When John Kerry looks at terrorism he sees a threat we can deal with without going to war. In the Middle East he sees only a Vietnam-like quagmire. Kerry doesn't believe America can win this war, and lacks the confidence in America to lead it through the conflict.

President Bush is no combat hero, but he served bravely and well in the Vietnam era. His service gave him confidence in his nation and its motives that John Kerry lacks. What Bush has and Kerry doesn't is the critical difference in character between a president who can lead a nation through a war, and one who cannot.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; bush; commanderinchief; dubya; jedbabbin; nationalguard; realleader; waronterror
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1 posted on 04/27/2004 9:45:24 AM PDT by doug from upland
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To: doug from upland
What was Bill Clinton's war time record?.Did Ted Kennedy have one?
2 posted on 04/27/2004 9:48:37 AM PDT by TonyWojo
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To: doug from upland
Kerry was in Vietnam?
3 posted on 04/27/2004 9:49:44 AM PDT by mcg1969
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To: TonyWojo
Kennedy served hazardous duty on dangerous bridges.
4 posted on 04/27/2004 9:50:08 AM PDT by doug from upland (Don't wait until it is too late to stop Hillary -- do something today!)
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To: doug from upland
Excellent read!
5 posted on 04/27/2004 9:50:38 AM PDT by Skywarner (Enjoying freedom? Thank a Veteran!)
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To: doug from upland
Kerry is just jealous, he didn't get many chicks being in the navy with is silly hairdo.
6 posted on 04/27/2004 9:50:52 AM PDT by big bad easter bunny
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To: TonyWojo
What was Bill Clinton's war time record?.Did Ted Kennedy have one?

Didn't Teddy take out an enemy bridge? He sunk a Chrysler! And his sorrows weren't the only thing he drowned...

7 posted on 04/27/2004 9:53:36 AM PDT by Go Gordon
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To: mcg1969
Yup.

Two tours of duty for four whole months.

I guess he earned a medal or ribbon every other week, on average. But only now are we hearing that he has shrapnel in his shoulder. ;)

Three purple hearts - I was reading that one soldier lost his leg and only got 1. I wonder if ketchupboy stayed overnight in a hospital after "earning" his other 2 ph?
8 posted on 04/27/2004 9:54:44 AM PDT by saveliberty (Liberal= in need of therapy, but would rather ruin lives of those less fortunate to feel good)
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To: doug from upland
My question is, will Kerry be hit with a libel lawsuit? I saw him quip on the news last night that Bush didn't even show up, and the DNC snakes are running a commercial saying the same thing. PUNCH! SMACK! GO NEGATIVE! HIT 'EM WITH LIBEL! DO IT NOW!
9 posted on 04/27/2004 9:55:37 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: doug from upland
From my archives:

After the Bush AWOL story had percolated for months, Col. Turnipseed finally remembered another glitch in his story: the fact that National Guard regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter. And, in fact - according to the Times - that's what Bush did.

"A document in Mr. Bush's military records," the paper said, "showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May." The paper found corroboration for the document, noting, "The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10."

Yet another document obtained by the Times blew the Bush AWOL story out of the water. It showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973 - "a period of time questioned by The Globe," the Times sheepishly admitted.

Source

AUSTIN, Texas -- When George W. Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, there was little chance he would ever see Vietnam from the cockpit of his F-102 Delta Dagger jet fighter.

When the plane was in demand overseas, Bush was not yet qualified to fly it. By the time he passed his final combat flight test in June 1970, the Air Force was pulling the jets out of Southeast Asia.

Bush, the Texas governor and presumptive Republican presidential nominee, said in his autobiography that he and a friend, Fred Bailey, tried to join the Palace Alert program that rotated National Guard pilots into Vietnam. A colonel told them only a few more pilots would go and "Fred and I had not logged enough hours to participate," Bush wrote.

Retired Col. Maury Udell, who trained Bush to fly the F-102, has no doubt his pupil was willing to go to Vietnam. Udell agreed that Bush was too inexperienced for Palace Alert, but he said the young man did become a good fighter pilot. "George got really good in air-to-air combat," he said.

Udell, now a 270-pound judo expert who describes himself as a "war-type guy," said Bush had an extraordinary memory and ability to process information. From Udell's perspective, Bush's ability to overcome his aristocratic schooling at Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass., and Yale University and mix with the other guardsmen was more impressive. "It is OK to get a good education, but some of those people are a little off the wall," he said. "I just wanted to make sure that he was in it for real."

Udell said he spent six hours a day for six months training Bush. And that's not all. "We would go to the bar and play dead bug just like everybody else," he said. When someone yelled "dead bug" the pilots would hit the floor and stick their hands and feet up in the air. "The last guy to do that has to buy the next round," Udell said, laughing. "He was really good with folks," he said. But the young pilot did not take insults well: "You can't put him down too easily. He's really tough. He'll fight you."

Source

10 posted on 04/27/2004 9:55:45 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: doug from upland
INTREP
11 posted on 04/27/2004 10:01:28 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Grit
bump
12 posted on 04/27/2004 10:01:48 AM PDT by Grit ('For the love of my brother, and for the love of my country.' - Pat Tillman)
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To: doug from upland
"I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from."


Can you say "DNC, Terry McAuliffe, and Hillary Clinton"?
13 posted on 04/27/2004 10:03:26 AM PDT by Maria S ("And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm."George W. Bush 1/20/01)
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To: ravingnutter
Good post on an interesting thread. Clinton might have been fun to party with, but I never would have respected him or trusted him to watch my back. I like GWB, as well as trust and respect him. People make a lot out of his past drinking problem, but gloss over the fact that he overcame it. Beating a drinking problem takes guts, discipline and strength of character. He's the right man in the right place at the right time. We got lucky. Imagine having Gore as president?
14 posted on 04/27/2004 10:06:50 AM PDT by GBA
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To: doug from upland
I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from."

Same place the Gore-is-a-genius crap came from.

15 posted on 04/27/2004 10:08:13 AM PDT by CaptRon (Pedecaris alive or Raisuli dead)
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To: doug from upland
Bush flew on of these:

While Kerry rode in one of these:


16 posted on 04/27/2004 10:09:32 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: doug from upland
I am always insulted by these people who say that Bush did not really serve, because he never went overseas to Vietnam for combat. I am insulted because what does it say about the thousands of other men like him. My dad also volunteered for the service, rather than being drafted. Although that was in Korea, not Vietnam. He never left the United States, since the treaty was signed before his troop was to be shipped out. It never made my dad less of a veteran. It shouldn't make President Bush less of a veteran. Of course, I know I preaching to the choir on this one.
17 posted on 04/27/2004 10:12:41 AM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: Go Gordon
Actually it was an Olds 98 sedan and it is my theory that he was not in the vehicle when it plunged into the drink. How about them apples?
18 posted on 04/27/2004 10:12:46 AM PDT by buffman
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To: doug from upland
Wish you guys would quit with the "Dubya inflation": he joined the Texas National Guard and flew F-102s. He did not become an infantry platoon commander or fly carrier aircraft or even fly medevac helicopters in Vietnam like many other young men of our generation. It was his choice and no amount of "gee whiz" about the F-102 Blowtorch comes close to actually risking everything you've got in combat. (and the only reason anybody would even think of bringing a F-102 to Vietnam was to display the thing: it had absolutely no conceivable use over there. It was a straightline interceptor in an area where there weren't any high-altitude bombers - and it couldn't turn with the MiGs).

Kerry did serve for four whole months before weenying out and leaving his subordinates high and dry. Then he betrayed all of us us with his participation in the pro-enemy Left, including scummy lies about our service in Vietnam and meeting with the enemy leadership while he was in Paris.

The real heroes were the volunteers and draftees that served honorably and at mortal risk during their tours in Vietnam. Neither one of these two need to be entering into long descriptions of their service.

19 posted on 04/27/2004 10:17:39 AM PDT by USMCVet
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To: doug from upland
"I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from."

Yale undergraduate degree.
Harvard MBA
Can pilot a jet

How many Liberals do you know who can match that?

To continue:

Successful tenure as Chief Executive of Texas.
Led the US out of recession.
Successfully invaded the unconquerable land of Afghanistan
Successfully invaded Iraq
Got Libya to relinquish WMD without firing a shot

He's a dummy?? Cognitive Dissonance is a Democrat specialty.

20 posted on 04/27/2004 10:20:24 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (You can see it coming like a train on a track.)
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To: doug from upland
Here's the BULL TIHS that Moveon is E-mailing around.


21 posted on 04/27/2004 10:27:43 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: doug from upland
Outstanding read, Doug. Thanks for posting this.
22 posted on 04/27/2004 10:29:30 AM PDT by BSunday (I'm not the bad guy, kid)
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To: USMCVet
Wish you guys would quit with the "Dubya inflation"...

You're leaving out a couple of small details:

1. Kerry had a draft number that guaranteed he would be drafted if he did not volunteer.

In other words, Kerry volunteered to avoid the draft, thus keeping himself from having to sit in a foxhole and/or crawl through the mud.

2. Dubya had a draft number in the 300s. That means he had no chance of being drafted. He joined the Guard ANYWAY.

23 posted on 04/27/2004 10:39:46 AM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
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To: OXENinFLA
Can this be real? No way. Did the CINC specifically request not to be sent to Vietnam or was he just lucky?
24 posted on 04/27/2004 10:41:04 AM PDT by OneTimeLurker
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To: OneTimeLurker
It doesn't matter.(to me anyways)

GWB's purpose in the TANG was to watch out for Soviet bombers.
25 posted on 04/27/2004 10:44:13 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: doug from upland
So John al-Query wants to bring up Dubya's National Guard Service? In his own words, "Bring it On"!
26 posted on 04/27/2004 10:44:42 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: EternalHope
2. Dubya had a draft number in the 300s. That means he had no chance of being drafted. He joined the Guard ANYWAY.


Check your info regarding when the Draft Lottery went into effect..... President Bush had no such number....
27 posted on 04/27/2004 10:58:57 AM PDT by deport (To a dog all roads lead home.......)
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To: OneTimeLurker
Can this be real? No way.


That is from the President's military files... It has been explained as that is a normal entry filled out by the clerks as they process the paper work.... So who knows... But it is also reported that he requested assignment to Nam once he gained flight status....
28 posted on 04/27/2004 11:01:58 AM PDT by deport (To a dog all roads lead home.......)
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To: doug from upland
BTTT
29 posted on 04/27/2004 11:07:01 AM PDT by spodefly (A 7mm intellect in a .284 caliber world, or something.)
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To: USMCVet
I respect your service... but not your post.

...and the only reason anybody would even think of bringing a F-102 to Vietnam was to display the thing...

See above. They were there and then they were sent home.

...It was a straightline interceptor in an area where there weren't any high-altitude bombers...

I guess you never heard of the Buff runs on Hanoi during Linebacker I and II.

President Bush served honorably and well and doesn't deserve to have his service denigrated by ANYONE.

30 posted on 04/27/2004 11:10:41 AM PDT by pgyanke ("The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God" - C.S. Lewis)
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To: OXENinFLA
From a 2000 WP Article:

Among the questions Bush had to answer on his application forms was whether he wanted to go overseas. Bush checked the box that said: "do not volunteer."

Bush said in an interview that he did not recall checking the box. Two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush "was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form."

Washington Post

31 posted on 04/27/2004 11:18:58 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: OXENinFLA
From a 2000 WP Article:

Among the questions Bush had to answer on his application forms was whether he wanted to go overseas. Bush checked the box that said: "do not volunteer."

Bush said in an interview that he did not recall checking the box. Two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush "was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form."

Washington Post

32 posted on 04/27/2004 11:19:36 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: ravingnutter
THANKS!
33 posted on 04/27/2004 11:27:41 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: doug from upland
bump
34 posted on 04/27/2004 11:30:39 AM PDT by lowbridge ("You are an American. You are my brother. I would die for you." -Kurdish Sergeant)
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To: doug from upland
I'm sure glad this story has found some light.
35 posted on 04/27/2004 11:30:57 AM PDT by BillyCrockett
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To: belmont_mark
Along with libel, you could add defamation.
36 posted on 04/27/2004 11:31:34 AM PDT by CyberAnt (The 2004 Election is for the SOUL of AMERICA)
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To: OXENinFLA
You're most welcome...sorry about the double post, my trackball is acting up and sometimes double-clicks with very unintended consequences. All of the questions about Bush's service were answered during the campaign, I can't believe the Dems are still beating that dead horse.
37 posted on 04/27/2004 11:38:34 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: doug from upland
Seeing how important Kerry's status as a decorated war veteran is to the Democrats and their media, it's hard to understand why decorated war vets GHW Bush and Bob Dole didn't win by landslides over that draft dodging Bill Clinton. Democrats must have been confused by hanging chads of something, that caused all their votes for the Veterans to go to the draft dodger instead.
38 posted on 04/27/2004 11:40:15 AM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (We all remember Audie Murphy,We all admire Audie Murphy-you John Kerry, are no Audie Murphy.)
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To: USMCVet
Neither one of these two need to be entering into long descriptions of their service.

If you notice, only one of 'these two' has been bragging.

39 posted on 04/27/2004 11:43:58 AM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: ravingnutter
Thanks for your archive statements - this is awesome. I have a lot of stuff but none of this - it's just great.

I've been preparing lots of stuff to use as handouts closer to the election. As Chapter Executive for San Diego, I hope to have lots of handouts for people - and when they question ANYTHING - I will some handout to answer their question. Thanks again so much.
40 posted on 04/27/2004 11:54:20 AM PDT by CyberAnt (The 2004 Election is for the SOUL of AMERICA)
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To: pgyanke
"I guess you never heard of the Buff runs on Hanoi during Linebacker I and II."

So the F-102s were there to intercept B-52s? Not very sporting...

I reiterate: the F-102s didn't have any place to hang bombs, no gun, and the NVA didn't have TU-95s. So what earthly use would we have had for F-102s? They would have just used up the fuel and revetment space we needed for real warfighters.

41 posted on 04/27/2004 11:55:19 AM PDT by USMCVet
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To: EternalHope
Real men didn't look at their draft number. Real men signed up for the big stuff back then: we had a war on.

I save all my admiration for those guys - particularly the platoon commanders, squad leaders, company commanders, etc. that picked the small shrapnel out themselves, applied the first aid cream, and stayed with their men. I admire the F-4 and A-4 drivers that got down on the deck and took hits for us. I admire the medevac pilots that flew to us no matter what to get the wounded out.

I don't waste my time trying to build up George or John.

42 posted on 04/27/2004 12:58:09 PM PDT by USMCVet
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To: deport
Check your info regarding when the Draft Lottery went into effect..... President Bush had no such number....

Hmmm... I've seen his number posted on FR, along with Kerry's. This is something I'd really like to have an accurate answer to.

I don't know when President Bush signed up for the National Guard, but he is about my age. The lottery for the draft was implemented while I was at the Air Force Academy. I recall the approximate date because my number was in the high 300s, which meant I could have left at the time without getting drafted (I stayed).

Unless memory fails me (quite possible..), the first draft lottery was in December, so that would put it in December 1970.

So... When did President Bush sign up for the National Guard? If it was 1971 or later, then I suspect the FR info was right. If it was 1970 or earlier, then the FR info was probably wrong. Since he is about my age, I suspect the FR info is right, and President Bush DID have a draft lottery number, and it was over 300.

43 posted on 04/27/2004 5:08:10 PM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
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To: USMCVet
Real men didn't look at their draft number. Real men signed up for the big stuff back then: we had a war on.

Does that apply to you, personally? I had a draft number in the high 300s and still signed on. That does not mean I looked down on the people who went Guard instead.

The only people I looked down on, then and now, are the John Kerry's who spit on those of us defending their sorry a$$es.

You are pretty close to claiming moral equivalence between George Bush and Hanoi John. Ain't no way.

44 posted on 04/27/2004 5:17:48 PM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
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To: EternalHope
Just because something is posted on FR doesn't make it accurate or the truth. There are lots of inaccuracies here like most other places...

President Bush graduated from Yale and then enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard on May 28, 1968.... thus he never received a draft lottery number from the initial drawing on Dec. 1, 1969 for implementation on Jan 1, 1970.

45 posted on 04/27/2004 5:23:06 PM PDT by deport (To a dog all roads lead home.......)
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To: doug from upland
Bump
46 posted on 04/27/2004 5:23:08 PM PDT by sport
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To: deport
Thanks for the info.
47 posted on 04/27/2004 5:25:05 PM PDT by EternalHope (Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
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To: doug from upland
bttt
48 posted on 04/27/2004 5:27:45 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: doug from upland
If all you know about flying fighters was learned watching Tom Cruise in Top Gun, you can be forgiven for thinking it's nothing but reckless fun, hard drinking, and a steady stream of beautiful girls. (That's only what the jet jocks want you to believe). The reality is that it's a hazardous business that will kill you — long before any enemy gets the chance to — if you aren't up to the job.

That's a fact Jack!!


49 posted on 04/27/2004 5:34:45 PM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: TonyWojo
"Ted Kennedy have one?"

Kennedy fought off a waitress once. Oh wait, he fought over that waitress.
50 posted on 04/27/2004 5:37:28 PM PDT by snooker
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